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Do you have to believe in every word of the NT to be considered Messianic?
- Thread starter Lulav
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ChavaK
להיות טוב ולעשות טוב
- May 12, 2005
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I think I defined that in post #14
and yeah, I know they aren't the same thing, that was why I was asking.
Oops, that's what happens when I ask before reading through the whole
thread
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Temptinfates
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As far as the first question, I was speaking of today and also by 'interpretations' I meant that Christians believe that the Torah is done away with while Messianic profess that it wasn't. This is a matter of interpretation, is it not?
I suppose it is a matter of interpretation.But, I ask myself "what would Peter or the other disciples say". To me, they were Jewish in the land of Israel. I just think that for one of these early men such as Peter to declare that the Torah was done away with would have been a death sentence for teaching such a thing. And Peter was the leader of the believers in Yerushalem. There is no way I can think of him telling Jewish people they no longer have to follow the teachings of Moshe. And yet, we find some of these disciples in the temple and observing certain feast days. I guess the question you have to ask yourself is whether you think these early believers/leaders could openly declare in Israel that there was no more sabbath and they were "free" from following it. Does that seem feasible?
I suppose it is a matter of interpretation.But, I ask myself "what would Peter or the other disciples say". To me, they were Jewish in the land of Israel. I just think that for one of these early men such as Peter to declare that the Torah was done away with would have been a death sentence for teaching such a thing. And Peter was the leader of the believers in Yerushalem. There is no way I can think of him telling Jewish people they no longer have to follow the teachings of Moshe. And yet, we find some of these disciples in the temple and observing certain feast days. I guess the question you have to ask yourself is whether you think these early believers/leaders could openly declare in Israel that there was no more sabbath and they were "free" from following it. Does that seem feasible?
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- Aug 24, 2007
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The teachings in the Jerusalem church were quite different than in the diaspora and the heathen nations. And it was James who was the chosen leader of the mother church, not Peter
(catholics will argue otherwise). James was very pious and very torah observant. I am looking at what today is called mj in my OP.
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- Aug 24, 2007
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I think that simply it breaks down to two things.
Either you follow the prophet/teacher that was promised to lead us into all righteousness.
OR
You follow someone's thoughts on who he was and then on their opinion on how we should do certain things.
Either you follow the prophet/teacher that was promised to lead us into all righteousness.
OR
You follow someone's thoughts on who he was and then on their opinion on how we should do certain things.
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- Jul 2, 2005
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Yeah, let's just subject the Word of God to our own opinions. Reminds of another time:
Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Jdg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
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What also makes messy , according to Lulav's recent comment, regarding Messianic Statements of Faith, "SOF of any Messie Org does not really show what they believe or practice."
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- Jul 2, 2005
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Doctrine is no longer being developed or refined. Nor is the canon.
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
I've gotten to the place where I accept all the authors of the Bible, but not necessarily everything single thing that they each have to say (Torah, words attributed to Hashem thru the Prophets and Yeshua excepted). If something is against or different from what Yeshua or the Torah says, then it's better to go with what God has clearly spoken.
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Temptinfates
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According to some websites I have found, Peter was the prominent spokesman for the believers in Yerushalem. Then, after perhaps some time or travels for missions, the leadership fell to James. Of course, can we believe these websites? Here is one that makes such a claim.. (search latter-rain // peter (I can't link yet).
So, for a time Peter was the main man in Jerusalem till James took over. Still, the point is lost in whether Peter led, or whether these men still followed Torah at that time or whether they could dismiss it in those days. It makes no sense that Yeshua would take so much heat from the religious leaders trying to "catch" him breaking the Sabbath in some way, repeatedly, and for his disciples to declare such things to be done away with.
These men were tolerated by the religious establishment, but not liked because they believed in Yeshua. All tolerance would have ended if word got out that they were teaching contrary to the "law" of Moshe...whether it be Peter or James. Yet, we find in Acts they are still celebrating shavuot in the 2nd chapter of acts. This required counting the omers. So, we see they are still respecting the feasts and the sabbaths. Most of you know all this already, lol.
My opinion is that they were still observing the "law" of Moshe--just not all the doctrines of the religious leaders. It was one thing to have disagreements with the religious leaders on differences of doctrine (which was somewhat tolerated) and trying to throw out the entire distinctive set of instructions that set them apart from the other nations--and this is what those that say the law was done away with seem to be saying.
So, for a time Peter was the main man in Jerusalem till James took over. Still, the point is lost in whether Peter led, or whether these men still followed Torah at that time or whether they could dismiss it in those days. It makes no sense that Yeshua would take so much heat from the religious leaders trying to "catch" him breaking the Sabbath in some way, repeatedly, and for his disciples to declare such things to be done away with.
These men were tolerated by the religious establishment, but not liked because they believed in Yeshua. All tolerance would have ended if word got out that they were teaching contrary to the "law" of Moshe...whether it be Peter or James. Yet, we find in Acts they are still celebrating shavuot in the 2nd chapter of acts. This required counting the omers. So, we see they are still respecting the feasts and the sabbaths. Most of you know all this already, lol.
My opinion is that they were still observing the "law" of Moshe--just not all the doctrines of the religious leaders. It was one thing to have disagreements with the religious leaders on differences of doctrine (which was somewhat tolerated) and trying to throw out the entire distinctive set of instructions that set them apart from the other nations--and this is what those that say the law was done away with seem to be saying.
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Temptinfates
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And I agree with what Vevida posted above. At the point I find something that seems to contradict, I have to regroup and start asking questions and search them out.
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Temptinfates
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I have not read the entire book of Enoch, but what I have read was somewhat interesting. Now, I have to look for Jubilees---Thanks, Visionary
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- Jul 2, 2005
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If one believes religion is a democracy or a smorgasbord, one should have no problem with that.
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As long as the Lord leads ... He is my shepherd ,... I shall not want.. He leadeth me beside still waters.. He retoreth my soul.. Yeah.. tho I walk through the shadow of death .. I will fear no evil,.. for thou art with me,.. thy rod and staff, they comfort me.. THOU preparest a table before me, in the presence of mine enemies.. thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over... Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever... amen
IF the Lord does this.. restoring my soul.. leads me by still waters.. preparest a table before me.. anoints my head and my cup runneth over.. I am happy.
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anisavta
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- May 25, 2008
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Balance, balance, balance. On one hand we have a pendulum swung to the side that says Paul trumps Yeshua in teaching. If Paul said it - it's truth with a capitol T. Now the pendulum swings to the other side. Yeshua and only Yeshua. If Paul said it - it is a lie and can't be trusted. Swing - if it's in the cannon, it's locked in stone from the mouth of G~d. Swing - if it's in the cannon, throw it out and burn it.
No balance - lopsided doctrine.
No balance - lopsided doctrine.
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I say lay it on the altar before God and ask Him... after all, that which is His, He will declare, and uplift it.. It is all to His glory.. Keep our eyes on Him.. He is assembling His people and moving them out.. Follow His leading.
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