Biblical Content and/or Christian Interpretation II: Monitorial

[Skip Sampson]

As I already told you, they would not even sell them to me even though I provided Masonic identification as requested, because I do not reside in Florida. Naturally, since you live there, the residency issue would not come up.

Can't speak to why they didn't sell them to you, but they had no problem sending them to me. And they sent them to my NC address, as the order form and check clearly indicated.

But whose Masonic credentials did you use in ordering them?

My own. Just the order form a check and a short cover letter. Three GL's have sent their rituals and other training documentation my way after I ordered them. As with my car, I think God just facilitated the process.

And anyway, none of this explains why you have abandoned your position on what constitutes Masonic authority, which with you was always "rituals and monitors," in favor of "Mentor's Manual and Masonic Education booklets?

Glad to see you haven't abandoned your practice of erroneous statements. You remain consistent, if not correct. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

There's always the possibility you simply aren't being truthful on the matter.

And by the way, isn't your father a Mason? And aren't you Thomas N. Sampson III? That would make the names the same, which could easily be an explanation for their error in sending the materials to you. All you'd have to do is conveniently leave off the "III" and they find "your name" on their Masonic rolls.

Then there's the issue of what materials you are ordering, as well. In my case, I placed an order for the Florida Monitor specifically, and not the other materials. If nothing else, that would confirm what I've already stated, of the real authority residing in rituals and monitors (which of course USED to be your own position on the matter), and therefore the greater care exercised in their dissemination.

But none of this is germane to the issue of content anyway. I can't imagine why you aren't dealing with content instead of rambling about nothing much at all. Unless, of course, you have already discovered that there has been no change in what appears in the booklets, as already posted.

GREAT LIGHTS: The furniture of the Lodge; the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses. (Florida, "Dictionary of Masonic Terms," Module 2 Study Guide, 2002, p. 71)

THREE GREAT LIGHTS: The Holy Bible, Square & Compasses. (Florida, "Dictionary of Masonic Terms," Module 2 Study Guide, 2002, p. 82)

 

[Skip Sampson]

There's always the possibility you simply aren't being truthful on the matter.

Not really. One does not have to practice deceit to get GL material; one only has to ask. You know: to get some, ask one.

And by the way, isn't your father a Mason?

Not since he died in the early 90's. Until then, he was a lifelong Pennsylvania Mason. I have long hoped that his presence in the Lodge did not keep him from salvation.

And aren't you Thomas N. Sampson III?

Nope. It's Thomas N. Sampson II, and I sign it "T.N. Sampson."

That would make the names the same, which could easily be an explanation for their error in sending the materials to you. All you'd have to do is conveniently leave off the "III" and they find "your name" on their Masonic rolls.

Probably not, unless the FL GL had a list of every Mason that lived in the U.S. during the 20th century, including those deceased for some time. Further, they wouldn't know the first name as I sign with my initials. Lastly, it is clear you are willing to go to great lengths to find subterfuge and deceit in all things you see. Feel free to indulge in such fantasies, but you'll come up short. It was all above-board, though, as I noted, I personally think it was God who facilitated it.

Then there's the issue of what materials you are ordering, as well. In my case, I placed an order for the Florida Monitor specifically, and not the other materials.

I didn't need the monitor, but I'm sure they'd have sent one along had I done so. In previous orders they sent the monitor, plus the cipher ritual. Maybe they thought you were a fraud and decided not to send it your way. Some GL folks are pretty perceptive, ya know.

If nothing else, that would confirm what I've already stated, of the real authority residing in rituals and monitors (which of course USED to be your own position on the matter), and therefore the greater care exercised in their dissemination.

You may continue to mis-state my position to your heart's content, or, at least, what passes for a heart in your case, but you'll still be wrong. Which leads to this philosophical thought: If Wayne posts something and Skip doesn't read it, is it still wrong? Most likely....

But none of this is germane to the issue of content anyway. I can't imagine why you aren't dealing with content instead of rambling about nothing much at all. Unless, of course, you have already discovered that there has been no change in what appears in the booklets, as already posted.

Just keeping the record straight. Your content, so called, has been dealt with sufficiently. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

One does not have to practice deceit to get GL material; one only has to ask. You know: to get some, ask one.

No, one certainly doesn't--if one is a Mason. But since Florida Grand Lodge made it clear to me they would not permit the sale of Masonic materials to anyone other than Florida Masons, I find your story extremely doubtful.

Not since he died in the early 90's.

Then that rules that one out. Naturally, I had no way of knowing, it was mere speculation in an attempt to figure out how you could have gotten the materials, given the implausibility of your story.

Lastly, it is clear you are willing to go to great lengths to find subterfuge and deceit in all things you see.

Same ol' Skip, that's fer sure: set the stage, by your actions, for things as they now exist, and then try to blame everyone else for it. Surely you can see how you set the stage for automatic skepticism, with the inane and prolonged tirades you engaged in on "Jacob's Staircase" and "rectangular cubes?" And the situation certainly didn't improve for you any with your sudden reversal of position by which you now try to claim you never held "rituals and monitors" to be the primary authority among Masonic documents.

Some GL folks are pretty perceptive, ya know.

Apparently not. They have me photocopy my credentials and still don't send me the material; while they send you (or so you claim) anything you ask for, no questions asked. Some of us non-GL folks are pretty perceptive too, but it doesn't take that much perception to see the holes in your story, given the response I as a Mason received when I tried to do the same.

You may continue to mis-state my position to your heart's content, or, at least, what passes for a heart in your case, but you'll still be wrong.

"I" mis-stated nothing, it was your own words, and is a stance you have taken in practically every discussion up to this point, in a discussion where suddenly you found the monitors and rituals do not back you up. In other words, a switcheroo driven primarily by convenience.

I've posted a sampling of it more than once. When I was debating one point with you and had cited other sources, you came back with:

I guess you found nothing in the GL monitors or rituals to back up your assertions. 10/30

In the same discussion, you later made the same insistence:

. . .find a monitorial or ritual reference. . . 10/30

In the ashlar discussion, you were much more direct in that same insistence.

All monitorial and ritualistic discussions of the ashlars, which would be authoritative. . . 10/31

That's about as direct as it gets--you said it was "monitorial and ritualistic discussions" that would be authoritative.

When I took you to task on the point, you defended it on the exact same basis:

I just note that they are not monitorial and do not carry the impact of the GL monitors and rituals I've quoted. 11/22

And in a discussion even after that point:

Gee, no monitors and no rituals. 11/27

Your two-note mantra on the matter has been well-established here, by the only one who can truly establish it beyond any doubt: Skip Sampson himself. Trying to re-frame at this point and pretend you never said it is the biggest cop-out I think I've seen tried by the antmasonic camp, even you.

Just keeping the record straight. Your content, so called, has been dealt with sufficiently.

Consistent, that's for sure--at least up until your recent seismic shift and reversal--but you haven't kept anything "straight." But thanks for the acknowledgment, albeit a begrudging one. Too bad rituals and monitors do not back you up, nor do the Masonic Education booklets, as noted. The fact that you decline to post what the new booklets say on the points discussed, suggests that either you didn't get them, or the material has not changed.

Nor does anything back up your claim concerning your former insistence upon rituals and monitors: your formerly consistent position on the matter of authority does not match your current claims, as anyone can see, from your own words in the context of debate. It is just as it has always been in the antimasonic camp in debate: Masons have to supply rituals and monitors, anti's can do whatever they like. And if you challenge it, the anti's expect you to just shut up and listen, while they can brand it all as "Masonic lies."

Nice double standard, I suppose, if you can live with it. I sure couldn't, not as a Christian, nor as a Mason.

 

[Skip Sampson]

But since Florida Grand Lodge made it clear to me they would not permit the sale of Masonic materials to anyone other than Florida Masons, I find your story extremely doubtful.

I guess they lied to you. They've sold them three times to me and never bothered to check if I was a Mason or not. Other GL's have done the same. As I've noted, just send in the order with payment and the material is usually forth coming.

BTW, since you know their number, give them a call and see what they have to say about it. Since the documents showed up recently, someone would remember. You can complain not only about not getting your copy, but the preference they gave me over you. Would you like me to order a copy for you? They do seem to trust me more with their materials than they do you.

Naturally, I had no way of knowing, it was mere speculation in an attempt to figure out how you could have gotten the materials, given the implausibility of your story.

What is implausible is your logic in raising the idea. Does your GL keep lists of all Masons in your state?

They have me photocopy my credentials and still don't send me the material;

Sounds pretty perceptive to me. Maybe your credentials didn't impress them. They wouldn't be unique in that case, and that would certainly fit the majority view. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

I guess they lied to you. They've sold them three times to me and never bothered to check if I was a Mason or not. Other GL's have done the same. As I've noted, just send in the order with payment and the material is usually forth coming.

Yada, yada, yada. I'm not buying any of it. Elvis liked his baloney fried. I wonder if he ever tried it half-baked like yours?

What is implausible is your logic in raising the idea.

Implausible? It cerainly made more sense than trying to convince anyone they sold Masonic materials to a non-Mason and refused a Mason.

Does your GL keep lists of all Masons in your state?

Wow, I always figured it was safe to presume that someone who addresses the subject of Masonry as much as you do, would actually KNOW something about the subject before speaking.

One way they have a record of it is, in our lodges at least, every man who becomes a Mason is presented a Masonic Bible, complete with a page that records when he was entered, passed, and raised. Since that page in the Bible receives the Grand Lodge seal, naturally that information is sent to the Grand Lodge. After all, they are the one who sanctioned and endorsed the action in the first place. Another way would be Masonic dues. A portion of what is collected is sent by the lodge secretary to the Grand Lodge, along with a record of who in each individual lodge has paid, who has not, and who (by ministerial deferment) is exempt. Logically (since apparently you have aspirations of becoming logical some day), it would be safe to presume they could even tell you how many ministers belong to SC lodges as well.

Sounds pretty perceptive to me. Maybe your credentials didn't impress them.

Memory problems, Skip? I clearly remember sharing with you at the time, that they declined to sell the material for the sole reason that I am not a Florida Mason.

But since you wish to make such an issue of such a non-issue, maybe it's worth looking into. I'll contact them and ask why antimason Skip Sampson can purchase things from them and I as a Mason cannot. It still might not get me any materials, but at least they'd have a name to watch for, and they can plug the leak next time around.

 

[O.F.F.]

Interesting exchange you gentlemen are having...

But since you wish to make such an issue of such a non-issue, maybe it's worth looking into. I'll contact them and ask why antimason Skip Sampson can purchase things from them and I as a Mason cannot.

Ahhhh, nana nana boo boo... Stop whining like that, it makes you sound like a prideful Masonic snob.

It still might not get me any materials, but at least they'd have a name to watch for, and they can plug the leak next time around.

What LEAK are you referring to Wayne? What do you fear they may LEAK OUT? If Masonry is simply a 'system of morality' that is so 'honorable,' so 'righteous' and so 'compatible' with the 'Boy Scouts' and biblical Christianity, then what on earth do they have to hide?

By the same token why wouldn't your own Grand Lodge of SC not provide whatever anyone (Mason or non-Mason) requests; especially if it was properly paid for?

Apparently the Grand Lodge of Florida feels it has nothing to hide. And, since you provided 'credentials' proving you are a Mason from South Carolina, perhaps they question, why would you need material from their jurisdiction when you should already have it from your own.

Freemasonry, as you know, is NOT a secret organization. It's an organization with a few secrets. Those 'secrets' are limited to modes of recognition (i.e. passwords, due-guards, signs, and tokens or grips—whereby one Mason may know another in the dark or in the light)—although those too, as a result of the Internet, are no longer a secret.

Therefore, everything else should be opened and available for public consumption; including tax records, business records, membership rolls/rosters, as well as rituals, monitors, codes, by-laws and any other lodge or Grand Lodge documentation. Otherwise, they would never get over any perception that they do have something to hide.

That being the case, I will ask you again. What on earth do you think they must hide from those who merely oppose their heretical teachings? If what they teach is not heretical, then they ought to be willing to share any and all Masonic education material as well as the aforementioned.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Ahhhh, nana nana boo boo... Stop whining like that

You're the one doing the childish taunts, and you're telling ME to "stop whining????"

What LEAK are you referring to Wayne? What do you fear they may LEAK OUT?

"Fear?" Gee, you have more inventions than your sidekick. If they were sincere in what they told me, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, then the fact that Masonic materials (allegedly) got disseminated to a non-Mason constitutes a glitch somewhere, no question about it. I don't really care WHAT your terminology for it is, or how you choose to spin it: glitch, error, accident, leak, it doesn't really matter. It has nothing to do with "me." And you are extremely disingenuous in trying to suggest it does.

If Masonry is simply a 'system of morality' that is so 'honorable,' so 'righteous' and so 'compatible' with the 'Boy Scouts' and biblical Christianity, then what on earth do they have to hide?

That's just it, nobody said anything at all about "hiding" anything. This little tangent is your own invention. All I know is, the official policy of the Florida Grand Lodge, as they initially defined it to me, is, they distribute such materials only to Masons. And upon supplying Masonic identification per their request (photocopied dues card attached to an email), they then rejected the request, and informed me that the Florida Monitor was for sale only to Florida Masons.

Because the contact was direct with the Florida lodge that offered the manual for sale, and because the reply indicated their rejection was rendered after consulting the Florida Grand Secretary, I take it as their official policy, without question.

Skip seems to be saying that he ordered these materials from the Florida GL. Because of the experience I had, even when it was dealing only with an individual lodge offering it on their website, I remain highly skeptical of Skip's claim. If a subordinate lodge is that careful, it stands to reason the Grand Lodge would be even MORE careful, not less. For that reason, I simply do not believe his story. The only possible way it could be true, would be if their policies concerning Masonic Education booklets is different than their policies concerning the Florida Monitor. Otherwise, either there's more to it than he's telling, or what he claims is simply not true. And, as I already stated to him earlier, if the policies concerning availabilty of the two is so vastly different that a non-Mason can get the booklets, while even a Mason from another state cannot get the monitor, that tends to confirm what I've already stated, and what Skip himself USED to claim: that the authority of monitors appears to be primary, while the authority of education booklets does not.

Freemasonry, as you know, is NOT a secret organization. It's an organization with a few secrets. Those 'secrets' are limited to modes of recognition (i.e. passwords, due-guards, signs, and tokens or grips—whereby one Mason may know another in the dark or in the light)—although those too, as a result of the Internet, are no longer a secret.

All of which, naturally, has absolutely NOTHING to do with official Grand Lodge policies concerning dissemination of their publications. And you mischaracterize it when you say "because of the internet." A more accurate description would be "because of antimasons on the internet." It is they who disseminate such documents, not Freemasonry, and not Grand Lodges.

Therefore, everything else should be opened and available for public consumption; including tax records, business records, membership rolls/rosters, as well as rituals, monitors, codes, by-laws and any other lodge or Grand Lodge documentation.

And yet we know that is NOT the case. You see, even though Masons will acknowledge for you, as do I, that there are no secrets in Masonry, that does not change the fact that it is not Freemasonry who has made it so. Mostly it's disgruntled Masons who have reneged on their vows and are hell-bent on "exposure." Masonry still maintains its traditions of non-revelation of its "secrets." It's purely traditional now, but at the time it was instituted, it was for the safety and protection of one's companions. The purpose for it has passed, but the tradition remains.

You may criticize traditions all you wish, but all people have them. And just like Masonry, many people, and yes, many organizations, also have traditions which have outlived their original meaning and purpose. For instance, in the church, when communion is served, does your church/denomination still cover the elements before they are served? Every church I have served still does. The original purpose for it was, in the old days, before the convenience of air conditioning, windows were opened for ventilation, and a covering was necessary to keep flies and other insects away from the elements before time for serving them. Nowadays, quarterly visits from the Terminix man take care of the problem our ancestors faced. But just you try and get that communion steward to leave the cloth off the elements! You're liable to get the oldest explanation in the world: "but we've ALWAYS done it this way!"

Masonry shares that same penchant for preservation of traditions, and probably always will. So some semblance of that notion of "secrecy" will probably always remain. But it's no more blameworthy, in my opinion, than the tendency by any other organization to perpetuate its time-honored traditions, since its original purpose was not sinister, as Masonry's accusers try to make it out to be. Just as surely as the tradition will probably remain, so will the spinmeisters who see monsters under every rock.

That being the case, I will ask you again. What on earth do you think they must hide

Given what I've already stated, the short answer would be, nothing--because as I said, it's not about "hiding."

If what they teach is not heretical, then they ought to be willing to share any and all Masonic education material as well as the aforementioned.

Well, Skip says they ARE willing to do so. The fact that you are still trying to make fodder for your cannon out of this, seems to indicate you don't buy Skip's claims any more than I do. Otherwise, you have nothing to criticize, seeing they willingly distribute the materials to non-Masons who merely write out a check and fill out an order blank.

Of course, IMO anyone who believes that one will probably buy snowshoes in Tahiti--and brag about what a bargain they got.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Implausible? It cerainly made more sense than trying to convince anyone they sold Masonic materials to a non-Mason and refused a Mason.

Yet that's exactly what happened. As I said, it shows that the GL personnel are very perceptive, and know who would represent their material honestly and who would not. As to plausibility, I think that anything that makes sense to you meets the definition of "implausible" perfectly. You may continue to believe as you wish, but the materials are on my desk and all I had to do is ask.

One way they have a record of it is, in our lodges at least, every man who becomes a Mason is presented a Masonic Bible, complete with a page that records when he was entered, passed, and raised. Since that page in the Bible receives the Grand Lodge seal, naturally that information is sent to the Grand Lodge.

I think you are stretching logic to cover your erroneous speculation. The question is an easy one: In SC, does your GL have a list of members, both active and inactive? Ask the secretary of your Lodge, should you see him anytime soon, if he sends such a list to the GL. Should be easy enough to do. I'd guess that the GL receives numbers, not names, which would make your earlier speculations unfounded. My advice to you would be to stick to the facts, which in this case show that the FL GL is more comfortable sending Masonic materials to me than they are to you.

I'll contact them and ask why antimason Skip Sampson can purchase things from them and I as a Mason cannot. It still might not get me any materials, but at least they'd have a name to watch for, and they can plug the leak next time around.

Have fun. Personally, I think you'll be making a fool out of yourself in so doing, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

You may continue to believe as you wish, but the materials are on my desk

Where, if we are to gauge by the lack of any substance to your input since their arrival, they will remain.

You may continue to claim as you wish, but all we have is your word. . . . coming from one whose word also gave us "Jacob's staircase" and rectangular cubes and a few other gems. So with you it's pretty much:

Masonic Monitor: 20.00
Education Manual: 3.00
Skip's claims that run contrary to Florida GL policy: Priceless

and all I had to do is ask.

So you say.

The question is an easy one: In SC, does your GL have a list of members, both active and inactive? Ask the secretary of your Lodge, should you see him anytime soon, if he sends such a list to the GL.

The answer is an easy one, and for anyone paying attention to what I posted, was easily discernible:

One way they have a record of it is, in our lodges at least, every man who becomes a Mason is presented a Masonic Bible, complete with a page that records when he was entered, passed, and raised. Since that page in the Bible receives the Grand Lodge seal, naturally that information is sent to the Grand Lodge. After all, they are the one who sanctioned and endorsed the action in the first place. Another way would be Masonic dues. A portion of what is collected is sent by the lodge secretary to the Grand Lodge, along with a record of who in each individual lodge has paid, who has not, and who (by ministerial deferment) is exempt. Logically (since apparently you have aspirations of becoming logical some day), it would be safe to presume they could even tell you how many ministers belong to SC lodges as well.

Naturally, this would cover all members, whether active or inactive. Don't know how you missed it, but it's nothing new for you, for sure. Next time try actually reading the post before responding, and save yourself the embarrassing questions about matters already covered.

I'd guess that the GL receives numbers, not names, which would make your earlier speculations unfounded.

Apparently you missed that part of it too. Don't know why you wish to "guess" about matters which have already been described to you. And getting that information from the secretary is pretty simple, he's a member of my church.

My advice to you would be to stick to the facts, which in this case show that the FL GL is more comfortable sending Masonic materials to me than they are to you.

And my advice to you would be to come back down from your cloud to reality, and quit making claims that are so patently ridiculous, and which contradict Florida Grand Lodge policy and practices.

And if you ever get around to it, you might try actually looking at your newly achieved materials, and answer the simple question you keep studiously avoiding, as to whether they confirm or contradict what was already posted. Unfortunately, substance seems to be a problem for you ever since your arrival on this forum.

I think you'll be making a fool out of yourself. . .

Still haven't lost your gift for irony, I see. Wonderful comment, coming from the Jacob's Staircase guy.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Where, if we are to gauge by the lack of any substance to your input since their arrival, they will remain.

Partially true. Publications I don't use are shelved; those which I'm using remain on my desk.

You may continue to claim as you wish, but all we have is your word.

Indeed. And since you've stated they'll remain on my desk means that you agree that I do indeed have them. Otherwise they wouldn't be on my desk. An unintentional slip on your part, but pretty illuminating.

Skip's claims that run contrary to Florida GL policy: Priceless

The manuals on my desk prove that it is not a FL GL policy, or they violated their own policy in sending them to me. Divine interference, one assumes. But your logic is very faulty. As Mike pointed out, why would they hide their teachings? Aren't we told by Masonic sources that very little is secret in Masonry? More to the point, why not send such documents when most are already on their website? Using your own logic, you must be lying about talking to anyone at the GL. Personally, I just think the people you talked to were wrong about it. Maybe you should research the Digest about such a policy, or call them back and make them take it off the website.

quit making claims that are so patently ridiculous, and which contradict Florida Grand Lodge policy and practices.

The fact I have them here shows you are in error. You might want to recheck what you think you heard them say. It's pretty clear that what you heard is not what they meant.

BTW, your GS confirms that the SC GL receives a list of Masons in each Lodge once per year. Your error, then, was in assuming: 1) my Dad was an FL Mason; and, 2) he was still alive. Looking at it all, you've wasted quite a bit of time and effort so you could not take me at my word. Says quite a bit about you thinking process, very little of it good. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Looking at it all, you've wasted quite a bit of time and effort so you could not take me at my word.

It's called experience, Skip. Jacob's Staircase and rectangular cubes are among your many assertions since you arrived here. I'll "take you at your word" when your word becomes credible, and not before. And seeing no substance yet, ever since you decided to return from your absence and start your incoherent rambling about nothing once more, there's not really much here to "take you at your word" about.

Mike challenged me on another thread, and to refute the false claim, I posted a scanned page from the source. Too bad you haven't kept up with the technology so you could do the same; or don't have the source to begin with, whichever the case may be. It seems a rather obvious point, that a scanned copy of a booklet, complete with date, would go so much farther than whining about how "you just can't take me at my word."

And while we're on the subject of errors:

Using your own logic, you must be lying about talking to anyone at the GL. Personally, I just think the people you talked to were wrong about it. Maybe you should research the Digest about such a policy, or call them back and make them take it off the website.

You keep mentioning "calling" them. Where did you get such a ridiculous notion? I stated all along that I had attempted to order the manual from a subordinate lodge who had the publication for sale on their website. The contacts were made by email.

Guess when you start fantasizing, you apparently go all out: Jacob's ladder is a staircase, cubes are rectangular, emails somehow get turned into phone calls, you have no idea that Masons actually keep membership records-----are you sure you're cut out for this stuff?

 

[Skip Sampson]

It seems a rather obvious point, that a scanned copy of a booklet, complete with date, would go so much farther than whining about how "you just can't take me at my word."

Which one would you like to see?

You keep mentioning "calling" them. Where did you get such a ridiculous notion?

Well, here's the exchange:

Me: I have ordered copies of training documentation from the GL, but have not yet received them.

You: Nor will you be receiving them either. I was denied even after my payment was accepted, and even after submitting the requested verification that I am a Mason, which consisted of a scanned copy of my current dues card. My request was rejected simply because I am not a Mason in Florida.

The implication was pretty clear. I was talking about the GL and you responded to that.

I stated all along that I had attempted to order the manual from a subordinate lodge who had the publication for sale on their website. The contacts were made by email.

Interesting. I went to the GL, you went to a subordinate lodge; I received the documents and you did not. As the GL owns the documents, and sets the policy for their distribution, I can see why you failed. Quite simply, you trusted the wrong folks. Doesn't say much positive about your thought process. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Which one would you like to see?

Take your pick. One which actually exists and is in your possession will do for starters.

The implication was pretty clear.

You bet it was. I said nothing about "calling" them. And you also stated:

BTW, since you know their number, give them a call and see what they have to say about it.

Nothing was said about "knowing their number," nor was anything said about "calling" them. As a matter of fact, in what you just NOW returned with, it should have been more than obvious to you it was NOT a "call":

I was denied even after my payment was accepted, and even after submitting the requested verification that I am a Mason, which consisted of a scanned copy of my current dues card.

My cell phone has some bells and whistles, but even it can't send scanned copies of dues cards.

So I stand by what I stated, you have a vivid imagination that has created an imaginary phone call to the Florida Grand Lodge that never existed in reality.

Sorry, but your reality check just bounced.

Interesting. I went to the GL, you went to a subordinate lodge; I received the documents and you did not.

Interesting. You claim things which you still decline to substantiate. You still post nothing from them, nor have you deigned to respond to simple questions as to whether they reflect the same things already posted from them.

Sorta puts one in mind of a little child playing games with a new toy. Problem is, the kid apparently only wishes to talk in circles rather than actually play with it.

 

[spiritman1]

Good grief! whats your point! and if you copy and paste a huge answer I won't respond, it appears your blogging to yourself, nobodies going to respond to books of information, get to the point and draw from the huge portions of information to make your point

 

[Rev Wayne]

Good grief! whats your point! and if you copy and paste a huge answer I won't respond, it appears your blogging to yourself, nobodies going to respond to books of information, get to the point and draw from the huge portions of information to make your point

If you're referring to the earlier pages of the thread, go back and read the OP. Better yet, go locate and find the original thread from which it derives, which had the same title, minus the "II: Monitorial." That one explained the rationale for the thread in even more detail, this one was a spin-off.

I would submit that the sheer volume of material that was posted IS the point. The poster who refers to himself as "o.f.f." had requested material reflecting biblical or Christian content in Masonry. He did so as a challenge, because apparently he felt (incorrectly, as it turns out) that it couldn't be done. As a former Mason himself, he certainly should have known better, but hey, it's not the first trip o.f.f. the deep end for him, I'm afraid.

This thread was then broken out as a reasonable response to challenges that what posted did not reflect Grand Lodge material. The irony is, that after the breakout, this thread went longer and produced more material than the original. Unfortunately, along the way, this one has also been subjected to more sidetracks--like the current on--by antimasons wishing to derail what was becoming an embarrassment for them.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Good grief! whats your point!

Just answering the mail. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Here y'ar:

 

[spiritman1]

Well if your into the Masonic order, I'm sure they are glad to have you, christians make great shields to hide behind, especially really naive ones........Utube Johnny Todd he was part of the Illuminati, the same rituals that got him to the top in witchcraft and the occult are identical in freemasonery. Although as a christian you will never get to the top because they know if you were to see who the big G stands for you would run as fast as you could, but they got you....Its like trying to convince an anorexic she's starving to death......they just can't believe you

 

[Rev Wayne]

yada yada. There is no Illuminati. You watch too much youtube. Get a real pastime, for goodness' sake.

And the "G" is derived from the Hebrew Yod, signifying the four-letter Hebrew tetragrammaton, or ineffable name of God.