Transgender and the church

[David Brider]

What? You mean to say that if people started CUTTING SCRIPTURES out of the Bible, other people might get mad? Huh. That's a toughy. Nooooo way that has anything to do with the warning in Revelation about those who take from, or add to, Scripture being in danger of Hell fire.

Of course, if you actually read what that passage in Revelation says, you'll see it's not talking about the Bible...

David.

 

[OllieFranz]

Bible publishing is a business, and like any business, if they do not make money, they fold. In order to sell their product, they need to know their customers.

There is no need for corruption, just selection between equally valid translations based on the customers' expectation rather than on more thorough research into contemporary literature. (I'm not saying the two criteria are in opposition. The more thorough research might lead to the same interpretation as the customers' expectations just as often as it doesn't. Shouldn't we spend the money and do the research? After all, it's God's message. We should want to get it right.)

A concrete example: In the AV, 1 Corinthians 1:27 reads: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

Many fundamentalists quote this when they are arguing against some point of "worldly" science to show that God's wisdom is not the wisdom of the world. Are these people likely to buy a translation that renders this verse as:

• But God chose what the world considers nonsense to put wise people to shame. God chose what the world considers weak to put what is strong to shame. (God's Word)
• God purposely chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise, and he chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the powerful. (Good News)
• Instead, God has chosen the world's foolish things to shame the wise, and God has chosen the world's weak things to shame the strong. (Holman)
• Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.(New Living)
• But God chose things that look foolish to the people of the world. He has used those foolish things to put the wise people to shame. God chose the weak things to put to shame the strong people. (Worldwide English)
• But God chose those things that be fond of the world, to confound wise men; and God chose the feeble things of the world, to confound the strong things; (Wycliffe)

These don't give them the obvious "go-ahead" to ignore logic and common sense that the AV, the NIV and the NASB do. Guess which are the more popular translations.

 

[brightmorningstar]

LoraElise,

Okay, first off, this discussion has steered too often into the realm of homosexuality (feelings of sexuality), when it is supposed to be about transgenderism. These are two completely different things.

Gender dysphoria is according to the medical dictionary a desire to live as or to become a member of the opposite gender. A desire is a feeling.
There are many desires and feelings we have which we could claim were innate or physical, yet which are wrong. This is a Christian forum, we seek to honour God with our bodies, not make fine sounding excuses for what we feel is right in our own minds.

 

[brightmorningstar]

David Brider,

Of course, if you actually read what that passage in Revelation says, you'll see it's not talking about the Bible...

But it doesnt mean what you think its says.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Olliefranz,

A concrete example: In the AV, 1 Corinthians 1:27 reads: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

But that doesnt mean what you think its says

 

[brightmorningstar]

Olliefranz,

Bible publishing is a business, and like any business, if they do not make money, they fold. In order to sell their product, they need to know their customers.

The Bible versions we have are all clear in their condemnation of homsoexual perversions so gay activists denying the woird of God is hardly going to convince us.

 

[brightmorningstar]

But God chose what the world considers nonsense to put wise people to shame.

that’s true,
The world considers Romans 1, 1 Cor 5, 6 and 7 nonsense, so do you.

 

[OllieFranz]

Olliefranz,

But that doesnt mean what you think its says

It's not what I think it says, it's what some (many) fundamentalists claim.

 

[good brother]

A concrete example: In the AV, 1 Corinthians 1:27 reads: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

Many fundamentalists quote this when they are arguing against some point of "worldly" science to show that God's wisdom is not the wisdom of the world. Are these people likely to buy a translation that renders this verse as:

• But God chose what the world considers nonsense to put wise people to shame. God chose what the world considers weak to put what is strong to shame. (God's Word)
• God purposely chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise, and he chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the powerful. (Good News)
• Instead, God has chosen the world's foolish things to shame the wise, and God has chosen the world's weak things to shame the strong. (Holman)
• Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.(New Living)
• But God chose things that look foolish to the people of the world. He has used those foolish things to put the wise people to shame. God chose the weak things to put to shame the strong people. (Worldwide English)
• But God chose those things that be fond of the world, to confound wise men; and God chose the feeble things of the world, to confound the strong things; (Wycliffe)

These don't give them the obvious "go-ahead" to ignore logic and common sense that the AV, the NIV and the NASB do. Guess which are the more popular translations.

I really don't know what you are arguing here. Many Christians use all different translations to better grasp what a passage is saying. I personally have 14 different Bibles on my bookshelf so that I may have better understanding. I have an interlinear Bible that goes from the Greek to the literal translation to the KJV. There are some passages in different translations I have found to be closer to the literal translation than to the KJV. Sometimes the NIV is spot on. Sometimes its the NASB. Sometimes the CEV is the way to go. Sometimes it's the Message. Sometimes I still don't know. Sometimes I have to go to my computer to the program that has the English along with the Strong's Concordance numbers and the original Hebrew and Greek words with definitions. Sometimes I walk away still not knowing.

I really don't think most Christians are the vindictive vendetta seekers some people think they are. Do Christians get overzealous and forget the big picture that we are to be sharing the Word of God with the lost? Yeah, I think many do. Does that make them evil-out-to-get-all-those-who-disagree-kind-of-people? No, it makes them human. We all need to understand that and breathe a bit before we speak.

In Christ, GB

 

[brightmorningstar]

Olliefranz,

It's not what I think it says, it's what some (many) fundamentalists claim.

No, its says what it says and means what it says in context.
Fundamenatlists are cool with God, gay activists are cool with the wolrd, thats why atheists, humanists and secular liberals all have the same views and support them.

1 Cor 1:27 means what it says and so does Romans 1, 1 Cor 5-7. The foolishness of the world is men who abandon the natural relations with men and committ indecent acts with other men which is error. The world and gay activists think that is foolish so they twist and distort it.

The problem with this thread was always the T in LGBT, it was always in danger of being highjacked by the LGBT arguments.

 

[OllieFranz]

You don't believe scripture has ever been distorted? Is that why King James ordered his translators to alter his Bible to make it conform to Church of England teaching and be more christianized?

Most Bible translations are produced by conservative publishers. The number one consumer of Bibles are conservative Christians. If publishers removed the anti-gay references in the Bible, conservatives would claim it's too liberal of a version and wouldn't buy them, therefore publishers would lose money.

Anyone who thinks Bible publishers are any more honest than the rest of corporate America is seriously naive.

What? You mean to say that if people started CUTTING SCRIPTURES out of the Bible, other people might get mad? Huh. That's a toughy. Nooooo way that has anything to do with the warning in Revelation about those who take from, or add to, Scripture being in danger of Hell fire. You can't honestly be serious, can you? Do you just wish for the masses to ignore and avoid Scriptures because you don't like what they say?



In Christ, GB

I've tried to keep to neutral subjects like "hippopotamus" and "foolish." If you two keep bringing it back to Leviticus 18:22, you will get this thread shut down.

However, in Lev 18:22 there are only five Hebrew words. Going strictly on the meaning of those words, a possibly valid translation might be "Bringing a man into your wife's bedroom for purposes of adultery is taboo. Is it the most likely translation? No But how many evangelical and fundamentalist customers will buy a translation of the Bible in which they knew the translators even stopped to consider the possible merits of that orsimilar translations?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Olliefranz, it is quite obvious that your disputing of all verses and passages that are negative to same sex relations shows you have an agenda and homosxuality is more important to you than the word of God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

On the topic of transexualism ....
From Mass Resistance

"This surgery is absolutely destructive" — sad message from former transgender to warn others.
The Transgender Bill hearing included a lot of well-rehearsed stories of discrimination and anguish by transgender activists because they're not accepted by society. Thus, they say, a law is needed to force that. (See our analysis of the Transgender Bill H502.)
But there's another, much darker side to that story that doesn't get out: The fraudulent and destructive nature of the transgender movement and the harm it does to vulnerable people.
But MassResistance was at the hearing to tell that side of it. As we mentioned in our last email, we were submitting testimony from the daughter of a man who "became" a woman, and testimony from a happily recovered transgender female.
We were also contacted by a Walt Heyer, a man whose surgery to "change" him into a female has had horrific long-term effects for him. We spoke with him at length. He was planning to come to Boston and testify personally, but at the last minute he wasn't able to, so he asked us to submit his testimony at the hearing, which we did. Here's what he submitted:
To the Massachusetts Judiciary Committee
Testimony regarding Bill H502
[Submitted at hearing by MassResistance]
June 8, 2011
by Walt Heyer
I'm a male-to-female transgender who lived and worked as Laura Jensen for years. I'm opposed to the Massachusetts Transgender Rights and Hate Crimes Bill H502.
Changing genders is zany, exciting and fun at first, but many of us have discovered right away or years after changing genders that our lives turn to disappointment, sorrow and regret. The evidence of this extreme regret can be found in the staggering suicide rate for transgenders, reported to be 30 to 40%.
I am back to living as a male and I am happily married to a woman. But anatomically I'm not a male; I can't be. My birth record was changed and says female. My passport says male. This surgery is absolutely destructive. In fact, it is categorically impossible to change someone's gender.
There are a lot of males without male genitalia who are struggling terribly with this. And at least fifty percent of these surgeries are failures in some way. Your body is mutilated. It's not a good thing. It's a horrible thing.
Why are legislators more interested in passing more protective sex laws when the real need of transgenders is more help in prevention of suicide?
When they have such a high suicide rate, they're not getting the psychological treatment they need. And activist groups are trying to remove psychological evaluations for transgenders.
The advocates that are pushing for transgenders in schools to be able to have an extra bathroom or identify as any gender they wish — they're pushing all the laws that are in my view what is actually killing transgenders.
People who want to change their genders have deep psychological issues. There's nothing normal about wanting to become a different gender. There's something desperately wrong with them and they need psychological help, and yet the advocates are trying to remove any required psychological treatment.
Homosexuals, lesbians and transgenders were not born that way, no, not at all. Despite an enormous amount of research being done, no scientific evidence can be found to substantiate this view, yet it is reported as fact. My new book, Paper Genders, provides a well-researched look in the homosexual activist movement and how everyone, including the media, runs and hides from this group of bullies and sexual predators.
The question is: Who has the courage and conviction to stand up for our young kids and our families?
If you go to my websites Trading My Sorrows and Sex Change Regret you will find a lot more information.
Walt Heyer, formerly Laura Jensen
Author of Paper Genders
Carlsbad, California

 

[OllieFranz]

I really don't know what you are arguing here. Many Christians use all different translations to better grasp what a passage is saying. I personally have 14 different Bibles on my bookshelf so that I may have better understanding. I have an interlinear Bible that goes from the Greek to the literal translation to the KJV. There are some passages in different translations I have found to be closer to the literal translation than to the KJV. Sometimes the NIV is spot on. Sometimes its the NASB. Sometimes the CEV is the way to go. Sometimes it's the Message. Sometimes I still don't know. Sometimes I have to go to my computer to the program that has the English along with the Strong's Concordance numbers and the original Hebrew and Greek words with definitions. Sometimes I walk away still not knowing.

I'm glad you do. So do I. In that case, though, I'm confused though about your problem with Jase on this issue. Shouldn't we research all of the Bible's passages like this? Including the so-called clobber passages?

I really don't think most Christians are the vindictive vendetta seekers some people think they are. Do Christians get overzealous and forget the big picture that we are to be sharing the Word of God with the lost? Yeah, I think many do. Does that make them evil-out-to-get-all-those-who-disagree-kind-of-people? No, it makes them human. We all need to understand that and breathe a bit before we speak.

Again I agree. But just because they do it without malice, whether out of ignorance, fear, confusion, zealotry, or some other reason, does not negate that they do do it, and it has consequences. Those consequences must be addressed.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Including the so-called clobber passages?

The so called clobber passages are passages that clobber same sex relations that people who advocate same sex relations feel clobbered by.
Do not lie, clobbers the liar, do not steal clobbers the thief.
Those disciples and followers of Christ are not clobbered by sin that they know through repentance they are completely forgiven.

 

[brightmorningstar]

This may also cause some reflection..

By Chuck Colson, Breakpoint
In his book, The Right Questions, former Berkeley law professor Phillip Johnson tells of a liberal professor at a very politically correct university. The professor and his wife considered themselves “feminists against homophobia,” and were quite willing to apply their views to their own family.
Had their son told them he was gay, they would have eagerly affirmed him. But they were shocked at what their son actually did tell them: That he was transgendered.
What did this mean? As Johnson recalls in his book, the son answered: “It means I’m a girl. I want to wear dresses and makeup and challenge the whole patriarchal, bourgeois idea of gender.”
The parents went into a panic because that very evening they were expecting prominent dinner guests, who “might think their son was making a fool of himself and his parents,” Johnson writes.
To the parents’ relief, their son dressed normally. But after dinner, the son explained that he had picked up the concept of transgender from the same books his dad assigned to his students.

 

[brightmorningstar]

I think this is very helpful, sensitive and respectful of the issue..
http://www.c-fam.org/publications/id.1883/pub_detail.asp

You know there are many people who have plenty of wealth and possessions and all kinds of privileges who have depression and addictions.
God is hope, He is a refuge, His love is what counts, not what we think of ourselves or what others think of us.

 

[OllieFranz]

The so called clobber passages are passages that clobber same sex relations that people who advocate same sex relations feel clobbered by.
Do not lie, clobbers the liar, do not steal clobbers the thief.
Those disciples and followers of Christ are not clobbered by sin that they know through repentance they are completely forgiven.

My use of the phrase "so-called" was a signal that I do not agree with the label, either. However the passages are grouped together by defenders and attackers alike, so there needs to be a way to reference them.

And an unpopular translation of any one will cause a Bible version's sales to plummet far faster than an unpopular translation of a more neutral (in terms of the number and enthusiasm of its proponents and detractors) passage.

 

[KellyJ]

Some of you are as relentless as my old church. Next thing you'll be pulling quotes from Jerry Leach. Now, for those of you who do not know Walt, google his name with the word "transchristian."

On the topic of transexualism ....
From Mass Resistance

"This surgery is absolutely destructive" — sad message from former transgender to warn others.
The Transgender Bill hearing included a lot of well-rehearsed stories of discrimination and anguish by transgender activists because they're not accepted by society. Thus, they say, a law is needed to force that. (See our analysis of the Transgender Bill H502.)
But there's another, much darker side to that story that doesn't get out: The fraudulent and destructive nature of the transgender movement and the harm it does to vulnerable people.
But MassResistance was at the hearing to tell that side of it. As we mentioned in our last email, we were submitting testimony from the daughter of a man who "became" a woman, and testimony from a happily recovered transgender female.
We were also contacted by a Walt Heyer, a man whose surgery to "change" him into a female has had horrific long-term effects for him. We spoke with him at length. He was planning to come to Boston and testify personally, but at the last minute he wasn't able to, so he asked us to submit his testimony at the hearing, which we did. Here's what he submitted:

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is generally agreed that homosexuality and anything connected with it is inconsistent with holy living. There is no conflict about that in the clear statements found at different places in the Old and New Testaments.

But homosexuality is merely one of the evidences of the sinful nature that every human being has. There is a big list (somewhere in the NT) of the sinful practices that would keep unconverted people out of God's kingdom.

The problem is that Christian groups have catalogued sins from minor to major, and unfortunately homosexuality is considered one of the major sins.

In reality, God does not catalogue them that way. Sin is sin, and outside of Christ, even minor sins will keep a person out of the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus, in talking about killing, says that even angry and bitter thoughts towards another person is the same, and will condemn a person just as effectively as if they got a gun and shot them.

Jesus was quite clear that Christian faith was not a matter of following a set of hard and fast rules. Following the Law failed to justify a person because of the sinful nature preventing a person keeping the Law entirely. This is why Jesus died on the cross. Converted believers have received a new heart to do the will of God in their lives.

We all have the sentence of death in ourselves, whether we were homosexuals and prostitutes in the red light district, or self-righteous church goers from the "right side of the tracks". Read the parable about the Pharisee and the publican and you get the idea.

While God hates homosexuality, He love the homosexual and is not willing that he/she should perish but instead come to Christ to be forgiven, saved, and put in a place where they can be changed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I will deal with transexuals in another post.