Was Jesus fully man before the incarnation?

[John Zain]

How do you arrive at that when it was the seed of the "Word of God" that was implanted in Mary,
to become the "only 'begotten' of God" which makes Him His only "begotten" Son - - -
otherwise how could it ever be said: God manifested Himself in human flesh?

Some of us need to understand what "(only)begotten" means.

The Greek word “monogenes” is translated “only-begotten” in English,
and it means “unique, one of a kind”. It suggests a one and only son;
and it does not necessarily convey the idea of a birth.
And it has nothing to do with “ktizo” (to create),
or “ginomai” (to be made, to become) as used in John 1:14.

“You are My Son, today I have begotten you”
(Psalm 2:7, which is quoted in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5)
This refers to Father God raising up the Son of God to great earthly prominence
on the day when He was baptised in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit,
and His earthly ministry began (to fulfil Father God’s incredible plan).

For example, Issac is called Abraham’s "only-begotten" in Hebrew 11:17,
but he actually had two sons (Ishmael and Isaac).
Issac was the unique son of promise.
Isaac would be a major link in the Royal lineage of the Messiah:
Abraham à Isaac à Jacob à Judah à David à Jesus
.

 

[Ormly]

Some of us need to understand what "(only)begotten" means.

The Greek word “monogenes” is translated “only-begotten” in English,
and it means “unique, one of a kind”. It suggests a one and only son;
and it does not necessarily convey the idea of a birth.
And it has nothing to do with “ktizo” (to create),
or “ginomai” (to be made, to become) as used in John 1:14.

“You are My Son, today I have begotten you”
(Psalm 2:7, which is quoted in Acts 13:33 and Hebrews 1:5)
This refers to Father God raising up the Son of God to great earthly prominence
on the day when He was baptised in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit,
and His earthly ministry began (to fulfil Father God’s incredible plan).

For example, Issac is called Abraham’s "only-begotten" in Hebrew 11:17,
but he actually had two sons (Ishmael and Isaac).
Issac was the unique son of promise.
Isaac would be a major link in the Royal lineage of the Messiah:
Abraham à Isaac à Jacob à Judah à David à Jesus
.

Begotten means to be born. From scripture there can be no question about that. Isaac was Abraham's only begotten for two reasons: 1. Ishmael was put out of the camp and 2, Isaac was of God's prescribed origin in that Ismael was of the flesh while Isaac was of the Spirit. I believe this speaks most clearly to the context of Heb 11:17.

Question: Who is coming again in clouds of Glory, Son of Man or Son of God?

Here: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

 

[Goinheix]

Can yo define better: being God, being divine, having divinity, having divine atributes.

Hello Ormly, are you there???????

 

[Ormly]

Not for this topic. Sorry.

 

[John Zain]

Begotten means to be born. From scripture there can be no question about that. Isaac was Abraham's only begotten for two reasons: 1. Ishmael was put out of the camp and 2, Isaac was of God's prescribed origin in that Ismael was of the flesh while Isaac was of the Spirit. I believe this speaks most clearly to the context of Heb 11:17.
Question: Who is coming again in clouds of Glory, Son of Man or Son of God?
Here: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

They're both the same Person, aren't they?

The "begotten" in 1 Peter 1:3 shows again that this term refers to a very special "birthing",
and has nothing to do with anyone being "created", which is what most people assume it means.
.

 

[Ormly]

They're both the same Person, aren't they?

No, because at that time in His coming He will be all three of the Godhead summed up in divine human flesh.

The "begotten" in 1 Peter 1:3 shows again that this term refers to

a very special "birthing",
and has nothing to do with anyone being "created", which is what most people assume it means.
.

Another word for begotten is "born". Being born is NOT of being created. Being created means you came from nothing. Being born or begotten requires two people to come together for that purpose. Jesus could only be born/begotten because creation was finished in 6 days "and it was very good" and there could be no new physical creation without destroying the first one. Gen. 1:31; 2:1.

Jesus had to come from the seed of Adam combined with the seed of the Father of Heaven in order for another (spiritual) creation to come into being by using the lives of the old (physical) one to inhabit the new one. The death of the humanity of Jesus made a way for that to happen. Those of the old creation had to be redeemed, from the old one, which Jesus did, that they might enter the new Spiritual one. I hope that makes some sense to someone.

 

[Goinheix]

Not for this topic. Sorry.

Some of the divine attributes that – according to the Gospels - Jesus (not Christ but Jesus himself) clearly did not have:


Omnipresence. In the Gospels Jesus is always in some place; and the most of the times he is in a very specific and clearly identified place. When he needed or decided to go some other place, he did travel. When the disciples didn´t know where he was, finally they found him in a given place. Even Judas did know where to betray him.

Omniscience. Jesus didn´t know of the dead of John the Baptist, or the dead of Lazarus. He didn´t know where Lazarus body were placed. He didn´t know who touched him until the woman stepped forward. He didn´t know what it was giving to drink at the cross until he tasted it.

Eternity. Jesus did birth. Jesus as Jesus did not existed before birth.

Holiness. Despite Jesus was without sin, he was not holy in that he had very close contact with the sinner. That is one of the reasons for the Jew to reject him as the Son of God. Not only that, but he took over him all the sins of all the people of the world.

Immutability. Jesus not only grew up in body and intelligence, but he changed many times in his mood. Examples are when he cried and when he hardens his face.

Impassability. Jesus did feel emotions; and in occasions he was overwhelmed by them.

Omnipotence. In occasions he could not do some miracles.

Infinity. Jesus was very limited by his human condition.

 

[Ormly]

You are clearly confusing what it means to exist as the Divine Creator and what it means to exist as a human creature. The two are not identical otherwise we would all be the Divine Creator as well as human creatures?!

Actually the doctrine goes that the Messiah/Christ as the human incarnation of YHWH is both authentic Divine [YHWH] and authentic human [Jesus of Nazareth] but the Messiah/Christ existing as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth is very different to the same Messiah/Christ existing as the Divine Creator, YHWH (same Person but different state of existence).

There was no Messiah/Christ existing before Jesus. You are confusing the Word, the second Personality of the Godhead as being a son. He was not ever a son. If He had been then there would have to have been a Divine Mother and the means for a 'spiritual copulation . . . and birth'. Now we know that copulation for this had to include at least one human being that God could do a miraculous thing. Angels have no seed within themselves. Ergo, the miraculous seed that 'unioned' with Mary was the one and only time God ever stepped into humanity for the purpose of introducing something into it from outside itself it, something it could not give of itself, i.e., a sinless human being. . . that His sinless blood shed would become that which could only cancel out Adam's transgression. There was no one else who could do this by the Word who was no Spirit being. The Word by which all creation came into existence. The Word who is NOW Christ Jesus. The Word who will come again in Glorified Human flesh in clouds of Glory. Mk 13:26.

All facts written in the scriptures concerning Jesus-Word being the creator were written subsequent to the complete knowledge and understanding and His mission and ascension. None were written before when they were still asking questions. I hope this is a help to someone.

 

[Ormly]

Infinity. Jesus was very limited by his human condition.

Phillip, after his visit and his baptizing of the eunuch, was caught away by the Holy Spirit. Would you consider Phillip experienced a divine attribute of God? Here's part of the account:

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." Acts 8:37-40 (KJV)

Isn't it interesting that Phillip was simply a born again Christian?

Side note: Whatever intimacy we believe Phillip may have had with God and that by being begotten again by faith, Jesus must have had a 1000 times more inasmuch as He was physically begotten of the very Divine seed of the Father . . . not of faith but actual, in terms of conception. Father withheld nothing from Him but that only which they were both in agreement.

 

[John Zain]

Jesus had to come from the seed of Adam combined with the seed of the Father of Heaven
in order for another (spiritual) creation to come into being
by using the lives of the old (physical) one to inhabit the new one.

WOW ... in which cult do you have your feet firmly planted?
Because your feet are dirty.
Everyone (even the Muslims) know that:
-- Joseph was not Jesus' biological father
-- Jesus' Father was the Holy Spirit
-- Mary, the virgin, gave birth to the only human who had no sin nature

P.S. I have a sneaky suspicion that you're quite famous around here.
.

 

[John Zain]

Begotten means to be born. From scripture there can be no question about that. Isaac was Abraham's only begotten for two reasons: 1. Ishmael was put out of the camp and 2, Isaac was of God's prescribed origin in that Ismael was of the flesh while Isaac was of the Spirit. I believe this speaks most clearly to the context of Heb 11:17.
Question: Who is coming again in clouds of Glory, Son of Man or Son of God?
Here: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant
mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

If they're not the same person, who is "the Son of man"?

Ever hear of people being "born again"? First time physically. Second time spiritually.
.

 

[Ormly]

If they're not the same person, who is "the Son of man"?

Jesus and He will be coming again, as God . . . . the three One God.

Ever hear of people being "born again"?

First time physically. Second time spiritually.

.

Sure. I am one of the them. Got a new Nature out of it.

 

[Goinheix]

Jesus did born on 6BC. He did not existed before. As I have proved, Jesus did not have any divine atribute. He was not eternal. You are confusing Jesus with Christ as the most of christians do.

 

[John Zain]

1 revelation, 1 explanation, and 1 question …

Jesus was “fully God”
”… the Word (Jesus) was God. … And the Word became flesh …” (John 1:1,14).
”God was manifested in the flesh …” (1 Timothy 3:16).
But, there are several verses saying Jesus needed the Holy Spirit to be able to succeed
in His ministry (esp. to perform miracles), e.g. Luke 4:18, Luke 5:17, Hebrews 10:38.
These verses certainly seem to stand against Jesus being “fully God”.
However, Jesus had to depend on the Holy Spirit because:
The function of the Holy Spirit is to be the Work-Horse.
God the Father never performs any miracles.
God the Son never performs any miracles.
God the Holy Spirit is the only One who performs miracles.
The Father and the Son have different functions.

Jesus was “fully man”
Since Jesus was “fully God”, He could NOT possibly have had a sin nature.
Romans 8:3 indicates that Jesus looked like a normal (sinful) person:
“For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh,
God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:
He condemned sin in the flesh …” (Romans 8:3).
Many commentaries affirm that this verse is NOT saying that Jesus had a sin nature.
Jesus had NO sin nature because of the Immaculate Conception and the virgin birth.
The Holy Spirit miraculously performed the function of being Jesus’ Father
(Matthew 1:20-25, Luke 1:26-35).

But, one question remains
“How can Jesus be considered “fully man”, if He did not have man’s sin nature?
.

 

[Goinheix]

1 revelation, 1 explanation, and 1 question …

Jesus was “fully God”
”… the Word (Jesus) was God. … And the Word became flesh …” (John 1:1,14).
”God was manifested in the flesh …” (1 Timothy 3:16).
But, there are several verses saying Jesus needed the Holy Spirit to be able to succeed
in His ministry (esp. to perform miracles), e.g. Luke 4:18, Luke 5:17, Hebrews 10:38.
These verses certainly seem to stand against Jesus being “fully God”.
However, Jesus had to depend on the Holy Spirit because:
The function of the Holy Spirit is to be the Work-Horse.
God the Father never performs any miracles.
God the Son never performs any miracles.
God the Holy Spirit is the only One who performs miracles.
The Father and the Son have different functions.

.

No question about Jesus being fully man.
Obviously there is not any verse saying that Jesus (not the Word, who is not Jesus) was fully God.

The function of the Holy Spirit is not to be the Work-Horse.
There is many christians saying that Jesus was God because he did miracles.

 

[Ormly]

The doctrine goes that Jesus is fully man and fully God. Even now and forever he will be a physical man...
But, was he physically a man before the virgin birth?

I believe he probably appeared at various times in the Old Testament, as The Angel of the Lord etc. I'm not wanting to get into a debate about them. But they would seem to suggest he was fully man before the virgin birth.

But could we say that in John 1:1, the Word was fully God and fully man even before creation?
Was Jesus, the eternal God, a man too, before he had even created a man (Adam)?

This from Oswald Chambers, from his book, "Bringing sons unto glory", might give us a better approach to understanding this topic:

His Humanity and Incarnation

"The only “Life” of the Lord Jesus is the New Testament. There are phases of the Life of Our Lord presented in the New Testament that no other Life, so-called, deals with. If you start with the theory that Jesus Christ was a man who became God, you have to leave out any number of New Testament facts; if you say that Jesus Christ was God and His manhood a seeming phase, you have to miss out other facts. The Person of Jesus Christ revealed in the New Testament is unique—God-Man. In Him we deal with God as Man, the God-Man, the Representative of the whole human race in one Person. Jesus Christ is not a Being with two personalities; He is Son of God—the exact expression of Almighty God, and Son of Man—the presentation of God’s normal Man.

A great many of the books written on what is called “the Psychology of Jesus” are an attempt to understand the Person of Jesus through an understanding of ourselves. That is fatally misleading because Jesus Christ does not begin where we begin. “All things have been delivered unto Me of My Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father . . .” (Matthew 11:27 rv). The basis of the Person of Jesus is not the basis of ours unless we have been born again of the Holy Ghost. The tendency to-day to “annul,” i.e. “dissolve by analysis,” the Person of Jesus, does untold damage to moral and spiritual understanding (see1 John 4:1-3&#65279. Immediately we introduce a rationalism that does not accept the New Testament revelation, we get confused. We will not bring to the subject the innocence of mind which the Spirit of God demands; we bring objections which spring from preconceived notions."

Chambers, O. (1996, c1943). Bringing sons into glory : Studies in the life of our Lord. London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott.

 

[John Zain]

Obviously there is not any verse saying that Jesus (not the Word, who is not Jesus) was fully God.
The function of the Holy Spirit is not to be the Work-Horse.
There is many christians saying that Jesus was God because he did miracles.

This is referring to the blood-soaked Jesus ...
”... and His name is called The Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13).

”… the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh …” (John 1:1,14).
”God was manifested in the flesh …” (1 Timothy 3:16).

When God became flesh, just what did we have?
Aren't the literal words saying that the man called "Jesus" was God in the flesh?
This means we have Jesus being fully God.

I was just asked on a Muslim site to explain the 3 functions of the Trinity, and I responded:
Father = CEO; Son = Administrator (and Redeemer-Savior); Holy Spirit = Work-horse.

Didn't Jesus require the Holy Spirit to perform His mighty miracles for Him?
.

 

[Goinheix]

This is referring to the blood-soaked Jesus ...
”... and His name is called The Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13).

”… the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh …” (John 1:1,14).
”God was manifested in the flesh …” (1 Timothy 3:16).

When God became flesh, just what did we have?
Aren't the literal words saying that the man called "Jesus" was God in the flesh?
This means we have Jesus being fully God.

The Witnesses - and perhaps some other so called christians - believe that Jesus was not God, not one person of the Trinity. I believe that Jesus was God in all senses. Jesus was not a human like me, he neither was half human half god as in the greeks mythology. Jesus was God in all that it means. If being "fully God" means that he was not 50% God, then I will agree. But he was God without any of the divine atributes of God. In that sense, he was God made a regular man.

Whrn we keep saying that Jesus is fully God, we tend to understand some things that are not true, not correct:
Jesus did exist as Jesus since birth. Jesus didnt exist any time before.
Jesus despite being the Word (latin Verb, greek Logos) did have not any memory of he creating the universe or being in Heaven.
Jesus did not have any divine atribute like knowing or might above a regular man.

I am not disputing Jesus being God. I am disputing Jesus being a God walking in Geliley with all divine powers ans capabilities. Because for quoting a verse saying that Jesus was fully God it is necesary to refer to the Christ, the Word or the Jesus Christ after resurrection.

 

[Goinheix]

For this specific thread, if Jesus was fully man before incarnation; the answer is: there was not any incarnation of God before the incarnation. Jesus is God incarnated, he is fleah, could be touched, cast shadow, eat and drink. Before the birth as baby Jesus, it was not Jesus at all.

Before the Word, the Son, incarnate, He was one with God without fisical body. We have to understand that Jesus and Christ are so different as Herod and King are. But many christians, specially those catholics, prefer to confuse both as one. Mary was mother of Jesus, but it is necesary for those christians to make her mother of God. And that is an gnostic heresy.

Is Kadafi the president of Libya? or the president of Libya is somebody else? Now you understand the different between Obama and the President of US. Obama is the President; but still the President of the US and Obama are two different things.

In the NT, it is reapited the names Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus. That is like saying President Kadafi making clear that the President is kadafi and no other. Paul writing to the christian jew refer to the Christ as Jesus and no other.

Now...was the president of US black before Obama. That is not the same question that asking about Jesus before incarnation. Before Obama it were many president, then we can search if all of them were black or not. But Christ is only one; Jesus; and was not Jesus before birth

 

[John Zain]

(1) I believe that Jesus was God in all senses ...
(2) But he was God without any of the divine atributes of God ...
(3) Jesus despite being the Word (latin Verb, greek Logos) did have not any memory
of he creating the universe or being in Heaven.
(4) Jesus did not have any divine atribute like knowing or might above a regular man.

(1) except He didn't know anything? ... see (3).
(2) I'm pretty much with you here (unless convinced otherwise).
(3) Scripture please, or did the Holy Spirit tell you this?
(4) same as (2).

Care to comment further on ...
Father = CEO ........ Son = Administrator ......... Holy Spirit = Work-horse
.