Contraception

[JacktheCatholic]

ADDRESS OF THE HOLY FATHER JOHN PAUL II
AT THE COMMEMORATION OF THE FIFTH ANNIVERSARY
OF THE ENCYCLICAL "EVANGELIUM VITAE"

3. The evidence shows with increasing clarity how policies and laws opposed to life are causing societies to decline, not only morally but demographically and economically. The Encyclical's message can therefore be presented not only as true and authentic guidelines for moral rebirth, but also as a reference-point for civil salvation.

Thus, there is no reason for that type of defeatist mentality which claims that laws opposed to the right to life - those which legalize abortion, euthanasia, sterilization and methods of family planning opposed to life and the dignity of marriage - are inevitable and now almost a social necessity. On the contrary, they are a seed of corruption for society and its foundations.

The civil and moral conscience cannot accept this false inevitability, any more than the idea that war or interethnic extermination is inevitable.

Commemoration of "Evangelium Vitae"

 

[JacktheCatholic]

As is clear from an attentive reading of the pages in question, the Holy Father was talking neither about conjugal morality nor about the moral norm concerning contraception. This norm belongs to the tradition of the Church and was summarized succinctly by Pope Paul VI in paragraph 14 of his Encyclical Letter Humanae vitae, when he wrote that "also to be excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means." The idea that anyone could deduce from the words of Benedict XVI that it is somehow legitimate, in certain situations, to use condoms to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is completely arbitrary and is in no way justified either by his words or in his thought. On this issue the Pope proposes instead – and also calls the pastors of the Church to propose more often and more effectively (cf. Light of the World, p. 147) – humanly and ethically acceptable ways of behaving which respect the inseparable connection between the unitive and procreative meaning of every conjugal act, through the possible use of natural family planning in view of responsible procreation.

Note of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on the banalization of sexuality regarding certain interpretations of Light of the World

 

[Thekla]

God can create children however He chooses and He chose this way
for more than one reason..
TBH, I disagree with their idea of "of value".
IMO it's nothing less than control, guilt and heavy yokes.
Which I myself was putting myself under for years...
having been raised as RCC.

God says have at it, replenish the earth, dont deny your
spouse (wonder why He had to add that, who'da thunk
anyone would say "no" to it?) God's ways and mans
ideas of God's ways are often at odds.
I'll leave the headaches and lack of desire, etc.. to the couples
to work out with God. I don't want to go beyond what
is written.

We see things very differently .. but since
we're not a couple, it shouldn't pose a problem.

I don't have a problem with the value of self control, and it indeed is necessary for true relationship. Just because the RC teaches it does not negate a real aspect of value.

I do think this is a matter between a husband and wife, God and in our case our spiritual father.

I also think that the sensitivity needs to go both ways; see Paul on the relationship between husband and wife, Christ and the Church. Denying self - or self sacrifice - is crucial to a relationship.

And I do know couples who are lovingly married, for whom a medical condition leaves sex essentially out of the relationship.

What a testimony to love

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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"also to be excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means."

Let's see...

Before, sex is "rescheduled" to times when it is unlikely to result in conception; a method implemented so as to permit sex but discourage conception, as the means and as the end.

Yup. Point on.






.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Back to 1983:

6. A special and important part of your ministry to families has to do with natural family planning. The number of couples successfully using the natural methods is constantly growing. But much more concerted effort is needed. As stated in Familiaris Consortio: “the ecclesial community at the present time must take on the task of instilling conviction and offering practical help to those who wish to live out their parenthood in a truly responsible way . . . This implies a broader, more decisive and more systematic effort to make the natural methods of regulating fertility known, respected and applied” (IOANNIS PAULI PP. II Familiaris Consortio, 35).

Those couples who choose the natural methods perceive the profound difference - both anthropological and moral - between contraception and natural family planning. Yet they may experience difficulties; indeed they often go through a certain conversion in becoming committed to the use of the natural methods, and they stand in need of competent instruction, encouragement and pastoral counselling and support. We must be sensitive to their struggles and have a feeling for the needs that they experience. We must encourage them to continue their efforts with generosity, confidence and hope. As Bishops we have the charism and the pastoral responsibility to make our people aware of the unique influence that the grace of the sacrament of marriage has on every aspect of married life, including sexuality (Cfr. ibid. 33). The teaching of Christ’s Church is not only light and strength for God’s people, but it uplifts their hearts in gladness and hope.

Your Episcopal Conference has established a special program to expand and coordinate efforts in the various dioceses. But the success of such an effort requires the abiding pastoral interest and support of each Bishop in his own diocese, and I am deeply grateful to you for what you do in this important apostolate.

To the Bishops from the United States of America on their «ad Limina» visit, John Paul II, 24 September 1983

35. With regard to the question of lawful birth regulation, the ecclesial community at the present time must take on the task of instilling conviction and offering practical help to those who wish to live out their parenthood in a truly responsible way.

In this matter, while the Church notes with satisfaction the results achieved by scientific research aimed at a more precise knowledge of the rhythms of women's fertility, and while it encourages a more decisive and wide-ranging extension of that research, it cannot fail to call with renewed vigor on the responsibility of all-doctors, experts, marriage counselors, teachers and married couples-who can actually help married people to live their love with respect for the structure and finalities of the conjugal act which expresses that love. This implies a broader, more decisive and more systematic effort to make the natural methods of regulating fertility known, respected and applied.(97)

A very valuable witness can and should be given by those husbands and wives who through the joint exercise of periodic continence have reached a more mature personal responsibility with regard to love and life. As Paul VI wrote: "To them the Lord entrusts the task of making visible to people the holiness and sweetness of the law which unites the mutual love of husband and wife with their cooperation with the love of God, the author of human life."(98)

Familiaris Consortio - John Paul II - Apostolic Exhortation (November 22, 1981)

Continence: a refraining from sexual intercourse

 

[JacktheCatholic]

.





Let's see...

Before, sex is "rescheduled" to times when it is unlikely to result in conception; a method implemented so as to permit sex but discourage conception, as the means and as the end.

Yup. Point on.






.

Nothing is being done to keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg. So, not contraception. Let me lay it out...

Nothing done to keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg before having sex.
Nothing done to keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg during sex.
Nothing done to keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg after sex.


Again, it seems the term for contraception is being bastardized.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Nothing is being done to keep the sperm from fertilizing the egg.

The action is scheduling the LOTSA sex specifically, purposely, intentionally, by design- to a time when that egg won't be present - that being the sole end. The RCC will teach you how to have sex contraceptively - the means and end being to have sex but not likely to conceive.

"also to be excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means."

Is there an action? SURE! It's why a METHOD must be taught (they have classes for this), things must be IMPLEMENTED, DONE. Yes, it's before the night(s) when the egg is likely to be present, but the definition specifically states it may be before.

Is the specific intent to prevent procreation? SURE! Poster after poster here has stated that sex may be redirected to when she is likely to be infertile, why? Because then she is likely not to conceive. The intent, goal, design, purpose is to counter conception.

It is both the means and the end. It is singular, specific. To permit sex without conception.





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[JacktheCatholic]

Webster-Merriman

Contraception: deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation


Prevention: : the act of preventing or hindering

preventing: transitive verb
archaic
1

a : to be in readiness for (as an occasion)
b : to meet or satisfy in advance
c : to act ahead of
d : to go or arrive before​

2

: to deprive of power or hope of acting or succeeding​

3

: to keep from happening or existing <steps to prevent war>​

4

: to hold or keep back : hinder, stop —often used with from​

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The action is scheduling the LOTSA sex specifically, purposely, intentionally, by design- to a time when that egg won't be present - that being the sole end. The RCC will teach you how to have sex contraceptively - the means and end being to have sex but not likely to conceive.



.

What is "LOTSA sex" because it sounds very crude and vulgar to me.
Please explain.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What is "LOTSA sex" because it sounds very crude and vulgar to me. Please explain.

As Catholic poster after Catholic poster here has pointed out, Catholic Birth Control, Catholic Family Planning has nothing - NOTHING - to do with having less sex (in fact, it was stressed here one using, doing, implementing, acting according to Catholic Birth Control may have sex MORE than otherwise). Read the thread. This has nothing to do with virginity, abstinence or chastity (at least as used by MY Catholic teachers, youth workers, priest and deacon) since it has NOTHING to do with not having sex or even having less of it (it CAN mean having MORE of it). BUT - there is a MEANS, a method that the RCC will teach you (it may REQUIRE it teaches you), that, if done, implemented, performed, acted upon - will attain the GOAL,purpose, design, intent, objective of not conceiving. Contraceptive method, contraceptive sex.



I'm not saying it's good or bad (frankly, I'm undecided) - but it is what it is.




.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Contraception: deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation

.... while still having sex.

It's not contraceptive sex is there is no sex, a sexless marriage. And yes - it seems that before the sexual revolution of the 1960's (long before my day, lol), the RCC unofficially taught that if one desired no children, one should have no sex. "No Kids? No Sex!" But that ethic was wholly abandoned in the 1960s (it never was an official position): Now it's "HAVE SEX! More than otherwise! But we'll teach you how to DO it contraceptively." The deliberate purpose is to prevent conception or impregnation. The means is contraceptive, the goal is contraceptive.




.

 

[Thekla]

Galatians 5:22-23

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance (macrothumia/longsuffering) kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (egkrateia/self-discipline control of passions, sensual appetites). Against such things there is no law.

This is what I'm referring to ... as artificial contraception does not require these virtues, nor their development. As all of these fruits of the Spirit, virtues, are pro-relational, so the natural method does lend toward forbearance and egkrateia.

 

[sunlover1]

I don't have a problem with the value of self control, and it indeed is necessary for true relationship. Just because the RC teaches it does not negate a real aspect of value.

I have no problem with self control.. lol
Forced self control where none is necessary makes no sense to me
Either way, my beliefs about man and woman and reproduction no
longer involve the RCC. I am not angry at them for their beliefs.

I do think this is a matter between a husband and wife, God and in our case our spiritual father.

I also think that the sensitivity needs to go both ways; see Paul on the relationship between husband and wife, Christ and the Church. Denying self - or self sacrifice - is crucial to a relationship.

And I do know couples who are lovingly married, for whom a medical condition leaves sex essentially out of the relationship.

What a testimony to love

[/QUOTE]
Bless their hearts!
And I have to say same to those who
hate it and sacrifice for love of God,
those who have creepy spouses and
give of themselves for the glory
of God, those who have headaches
and keep it to themselves.
and on and on and on... bless their hearts.

But yes, between the couple and God , amen!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

As Catholic poster after Catholic poster here has pointed out, Catholic Birth Control, Catholic Family Planning has nothing - NOTHING - to do with having less sex (in fact, it was stressed here one using, doing, implementing, acting according to Catholic Birth Control may have sex MORE than otherwise). Read the thread. This has nothing to do with virginity, abstinence or chastity (at least as used by MY Catholic teachers, youth workers, priest and deacon) since it has NOTHING to do with not having sex or even having less of it (it CAN mean having MORE of it). BUT - there is a MEANS, a method that the RCC will teach you (it may REQUIRE it teaches you), that, if done, implemented, performed, acted upon - will attain the GOAL of not conceiving. Contraceptive sex.



I'm not saying it's good or bad (frankly, I'm undecided) - but it is what it is.




.

Using your "LOTSA sex" was hurtful to Catholics and seemed very inconsiderate. This is not the type of discussion that two Christians should be having with one another. There should be kindness and patience because 1 Corinthians 13 tells us so and Jesus expects it of Christians. Is there good fruit in being insulting and crude and vulgar and mean?

CaliforniaJosiah, you seem to think you have an important point to make but is this the way to make it? Please do not insult Catholics and others with terms like "LOTSA sex". I will give you a patient and kind rebutal each time but I expect all of us to do the same.

If we look at what we know about Catholic doctrine we can ascertain two things very clearly. First, that sex is reserved for marriage and sex has to be open to life or getting pregnant so all contraception (prevention before/during/after sex) is a grave sin (with the one exception in cases of rape where it has been proven no conception has taken place). Second, that Natural Family Planning seeks to help married couples use chastity and the conjugal act to minister in God's design how to better be a family.

The RCC is not having "LOTSA sex" and that is not a teaching and is not a fact by any statistics I have seen. It seems to be a hurtful remark and I hope it was not meant to be a crude and vulgar and mean response because I would like to think that as Christians we will show the fruits of the Spirit by showing love and patience and kindness.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

.... while still having sex.

It's not contraceptive sex is there is no sex, a sexless marriage. And yes - it seems that before the sexual revolution of the 1960's (long before my day, lol), the RCC unofficially taught that if one desired no children, one should have no sex. "No Kids? No Sex!" But that ethic was wholly abandoned in the 1960s (it never was an official position): Now it's "HAVE SEX! More than otherwise! But we'll teach you how to DO it contraceptively." The deliberate purpose is to prevent conception or impregnation. The means is contraceptive, the goal is contraceptive.




.

I am confused as to what the sexual revolution of the 60s has to do with Catholic doctrine on contraception.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

As Catholic poster after Catholic poster here has pointed out, Catholic Birth Control, Catholic Family Planning has nothing - NOTHING - to do with having less sex (in fact, it was stressed here one using, doing, implementing, acting according to Catholic Birth Control may have sex MORE than otherwise). Read the thread. This has nothing to do with virginity, abstinence or chastity (at least as used by MY Catholic teachers, youth workers, priest and deacon) since it has NOTHING to do with not having sex or even having less of it (it CAN mean having MORE of it). BUT - there is a MEANS, a method that the RCC will teach you (it may REQUIRE it teaches you), that, if done, implemented, performed, acted upon - will attain the GOAL,purpose, design, intent, objective of not conceiving. Contraceptive method, contraceptive sex.



I'm not saying it's good or bad (frankly, I'm undecided) - but it is what it is.


.

I am confused as to what the sexual revolution of the 60s has to do with Catholic doctrine on contraception.

WHENEVER and HOWEVER that change happened in the RCC, the result is what it is.







.

 

[sunlover1]

This is what I'm referring to ... as artificial contraception does not require these virtues, nor their development. As all of these fruits of the Spirit, virtues, are pro-relational, so the natural method does lend toward forbearance and egkrateia.

LOL
So if you count days and check fluids you're more spiritual
than if you do those things necessary to use condoms etc.?

Are we back to the "this way is holy, that way is evil" mindset?
Not to mention going beyond what's written..

 

[JacktheCatholic]

LOL
So if you count days and check fluids you're more spiritual
than if you do those things necessary to use condoms etc.?

Are we back to the "this way is holy, that way is evil" mindset?
Not to mention going beyond what's written..

Yes. By following in God's design you follow God. By using discipline we learn chastity and become more like Jesus. These are holy things to do.

Since contraception became accepted we have seen a deterioration of ethics and a culture of death.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

As Catholic poster after Catholic poster here has pointed out, Catholic Birth Control, Catholic Family Planning has nothing - NOTHING - to do with having less sex (in fact, it was stressed here one using, doing, implementing, acting according to Catholic Birth Control may have sex MORE than otherwise). Read the thread. This has nothing to do with virginity, abstinence or chastity (at least as used by MY Catholic teachers, youth workers, priest and deacon) since it has NOTHING to do with not having sex or even having less of it (it CAN mean having MORE of it). BUT - there is a MEANS, a method that the RCC will teach you (it may REQUIRE it teaches you), that, if done, implemented, performed, acted upon - will attain the GOAL,purpose, design, intent, objective of not conceiving. Contraceptive method, contraceptive sex.



I'm not saying it's good or bad (frankly, I'm undecided) - but it is what it is.


.

Using your "LOTSA sex" was hurtful to Catholics and seemed very inconsiderate.

Of course not.


It was CATHOLICS here that pointed out (with some emphasis) that Catholic Family Planning - Birth Control may mean have MORE sex than otherwise. IF that is false, take it up with the Catholics here (and my Catholic teachers). But however often the couple has sex, Catholic Family Planning/Birth Control is about doing it contraceptively.





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[Thekla]

LOL
So if you count days and check fluids you're more spiritual
than if you do those things necessary to use condoms etc.?

Are we back to the "this way is holy, that way is evil" mindset?
Not to mention going beyond what's written..

No, not the "this way is holy, this way is evil", but instead I turn to Scripture (Peter, Paul). Counting is one thing, testing another, but putting off desire requires a different level of self control - developing egkrateia. Do we have a similar word in English ?

Anyway, the development of all these characteristics (listed by Paul) are not always easy, often require a struggle, but are ultimately pro-relationship. If practiced by a couple - in the context of any aspect of the relationship, they have a positive aspect. (If they were ultimately anti-relational, why would they be fruits of the Spirit ?)