Atheism makes no sense to me?!?

[Legal_Eagle]

abysmul,

Take away all of the fluff of the arguments and unproven scientific theories of causality, and that is what you are left with as an Atheist. =)

 

[Freodin]

Freodin,

If the universe came from something else, you have simply restated Aristotle's Prime Mover Theory. This question simply implies "Where did the previous something come from"?

I agree... to a point.

The case for atheism here is the simple assumption that this "prime mover" is not some kind of superhuman like "god" is usually portrayed.

I would also argue that if your universe came from something else, it is not spontaneous. It still adheres to cause and effect.

That would imply that this "something else" follows the same rules of causality as our universe does. If it doesn't... well, then it doesn't.

 

[abysmul]

abysmul,

Take away all of the fluff of the arguments and unproven scientific theories of causality, and that is what you are left with as an Atheist. =)

Oh I know, Lord help me, I was a professed atheist in the past. My poor brother is what we call an evangelical atheist that's very involved in the "movement" (as in organizational level).

 

[Freodin]

I always felt that Atheism boiled down to : "I hate God" or "Stuff Happens".

/shrug

I think the second quote is a rather good description. Stuff does happen. If it didn't, there would be nothing to talk about.

(The first is quite stupid, on the other hand.)

 

[abysmul]

I think the second quote is a rather good description. Stuff does happen. If it didn't, there would be nothing to talk about.

(The first is quite stupid, on the other hand.)

I agree, it's a stupid reason to be an atheist, but I've experienced atheists that fell/fall exactly into the "I hate God" category.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

[EDIT: As it was off-topic, I've removed my response to JDV and sent it to him via PM. Hopefully, he'll respond to the larger, on-topic portion of my post (#72).]

 

[sandwiches]

actually no

Just my personal experience, that boiled down to the heart of the matter the atheists I've known and read about seem to either hate God (for any number of reasons) or believe the universe and life in it just "poofed" into existence by sheer dumb luck!

The vast majority of times when I've heard theists make such claims, it's because they couldn't or didn't want to understand what the atheist was all about. I had a friend of mine who when I explained to him that I didn't find the God of the Bible to be a good moral role model, he said something to the effect of "So, you hate God because your limited human morality doesn't understand him and you simply want to do what you want to do."

So, to be honest, I'm sure that you think that because you want to think that due to bias not because any atheist has literally told you "I hate God."

 

[sandwiches]

abysmul,

Take away all of the fluff of the arguments and unproven scientific theories of causality, and that is what you are left with as an Atheist. =)

What "fluff of the arguments and unproven scientific theories of causality" are you talking about?

 

[Freodin]

I agree, it's a stupid reason to be an atheist, but I've experienced atheists that fell/fall exactly into the "I hate God" category.

Well, I have experienced Christians that fall into the "I have been baptized as baby" category... but I would never claim that this is the sole (or even half) cause for people being Christians.

And I would argue against the categorization of people who "hate God" as atheists... but that would be something I would to argue with them.

But somehow I don't think that someone like you who can summarize a whole philosophical category with five words is really interested in intellectual debate.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

actually no

Just my personal experience, that boiled down to the heart of the matter the atheists I've known and read about seem to either hate God (for any number of reasons) or believe the universe and life in it just "poofed" into existence by sheer dumb luck!

The first instance is not representative of atheism in general but antitheism in particular, as well as the odd misotheist, which is a whole other issue entirely.

And just because one believes the universe exists by chance and fortune does not mean you don't appreciate this universe and this life you have. However, I don't think I would characterize the Big Bang as poofing into existence, nor would I characterize it as luck or chance

 

[Legal_Eagle]

sandwiches,

That was a joke in response to abysmul's reply =) I have had the pleasure of reading your other posts and was not intentionally trivializing any of your theories. I know from what you have written that you do not state "fluff" theories or hate God.

 

[Freodin]

Oh I know, Lord help me, I was a professed atheist in the past.

Say, have you been an "I hate God" or "Stuff happens" professed atheist?

 

[ToHoldNothing]

ToHoldNothing and Wiccan_Child,

I want to elaborate a bit more on the Pentagram issue. First, ToHoldNothing, Wiccan_Child admitted that it was a Pentagram, and NOT one of the other symbols you described. I do agree that many symbols are mistakenly interpreted by other believers and sometimes given improper meaning. Having said that, my comments were centered more on the issue of respect. Whether or not most Christians SHOULD not be offended by Wicca or the Pentagram, is irrelevant to the fact that they are. Using symbolism that inflames the fears and loathing of people on a site dedicated to their religion is not respectful. I am not going to report you W_C. That was never my intention. I am simply stating that what you use as an avatar and user name on this site shows little respect or maturity for a person that is a guest on a Christian forum. Having the RIGHT to do something does not mean that something SHOULD be done. If this were a general faith or non-religious site, I would defend your right to display that symbolism. Here, displaying the Pentagram is offensive, whether you believe it should be or not. I would not log on to an NAACP site with the Confederate Battle Flag as my avatar, though I have a right to. I would not log onto a Jewish site with the Swastika as my avatar, though I have a right to. Like I said, it is an issue of respect and maturity. I am certainly not interested in "taking out any Big Bad Pagan." You give yourself too much honor and attention my friend. I am simply saying that your actions are trite, offensive and immature. Nothing more.

You seemed to completely ignore and dismiss my claim that the pentagram has sources in Christianity, representative of the five wounds of Christ. Just because it has a popular association with paganism does not remove its association with Christianity that I would guarantee a few Christians can recognize and appreciate.

Displaying the reverse pentagram of Laveyan Satanism would be offensive, not displaying the basic pentagram or pentacle of Wicca and Neo Paganism in general. It's as if you are conflating neo pagans with Satanists, which is, I would imagine, absurd in hindsight.

 

[abysmul]

Say, have you been an "I hate God" or "Stuff happens" professed atheist?

Stuff happens.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

ToHoldNothing,

Wiccan_Child and I have decided to pursue this discussion off-thread in PM. If you don't mind, I am not going to respond here and limit our discussion to the thread. I have not ignored or dismissed any of your comments. However, regardless of the truth of the origins of the images you espouse, it has nothing to do with the reality (misplaced or not) that many Christians find it offensive. Honoring that belief, even if you do not believe it, is a matter or respect. It has nothing to do with the logic of the argument you make; which I understand and do not disagree with.

 

[Freodin]

Stuff happens.

And you believed that "the universe and life in it just "poofed" into existence by sheer dumb luck!" ?

 

[abysmul]

And you believed that "the universe and life in it just "poofed" into existence by sheer dumb luck!" ?

I realized that's what it all boiled down to. Something from nothing, or something from something else, but the something else was just different something from nothing.

Dr. Michio Kaku was on the radio doing an interview with Don Imus not long ago, and even he seemed to distanced himself from Hawking's most recent no God / heaven is a fairy tale stance.

 

[Freodin]

I realized that's what it all boiled down to. Something from nothing, or something from something else, but the something else was just different something from nothing.

And you never have even considered that you might have realized wrongly?

 

[abysmul]

And you never have even considered that you might have realized wrongly?

Yes, because I realized that Jesus was the answer!

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Amen brother =)