Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)

[Frogster]

That is exactly what I meant.

ok..let me ask u this elder, why..why..did the Holy Spirit say, the law was bondage, temporary, arouses sin, for children, causes division, works wrath, not for the children of Abraham, not of faith, not for those led by the Spirit, condemning etc?

Why? Give us all a simple answer. I don't thnk this question is unreasonable.

 

[Stryder06]

No it wasn't, it was the mosaic law, that was the issue.


1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” .


5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

The law isn't the issue. It never was. It was how the law was used. You can't seem to get that though. Show me one law, just one, that is bad.

Any law given is a reflection of the law giver. Keep that in mind.

 

[sheina]

This isn't a matter of "My view is correct and yours is incorrect"..what it all boils down to is "What saith the Lord?"

That is exactly what I meant.

The Lord saith:

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Now tell us again....what do you REALLY mean?

 

[sheina]

No it wasn't, it was the mosaic law, that was the issue.


1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” .


5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

The law isn't the issue. It never was. It was how the law was used. You can't seem to get that though. Show me one law, just one, that is bad.

Any law given is a reflection of the law giver. Keep that in mind.

Frogster is correct...the issue was the ADDING of circumcision AND keeping the law of Moses to the Gospel of grace.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The law was given to reveal sin and to lead the sinner to Christ.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[11822]

Bless you. I certainly need to be condemned by something and the law no longer does that to me. Now do I fit in your camp of the condemned?

I never condemned anyone nor would i wan't to. Jesus law commands that we not judge or condemn.


Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

 

[11822]

1 Timothy 1:5-11

The Law is not for those who have trusted Christ, it is for the unrighteous.

Yet some would insist, through vain janglings, that those who have trusted Christ are to be placed under the Law and thus under the curse of death that comes with that Law. They would condemn those whom Christ has exonerated by holding them to the Law that Christ has set them free from.

that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.[/B]

Paul is talking about teaching fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith about those teaching.
You're taking that scripture way out of Context. Are you implying that if i say that its Gods will to abstain from fornication its a vain Jangling? Was paul jangling when he preached this message below?



Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

 

[Frogster]

The law isn't the issue. It never was. It was how the law was used. You can't seem to get that though. Show me one law, just one, that is bad.

Any law given is a reflection of the law giver. Keep that in mind.

no no no..you said acts 15 was not about the mosaic law, but oral, to which i have shown, u were incorrect. That was the point, no diversions. do u admit that was the Mosaic law that was called a yoke by peter?

 

[Frogster]

that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.



Paul is talking about teaching fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith about those teaching.
You're taking that scripture way out of Context. Are you implying that saying that its Gods will to abstain from fornication is a vain Jangling? Was paul jangling when he preached this message below?



Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 ¶ Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

incorrect, it was the law, being spoken of.

7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.


are fables being spoken of here?


8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers

 

[Frogster]

Frogster is correct...the issue was the ADDING of circumcision AND keeping the law of Moses to the Gospel of grace.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The law was given to reveal sin and to lead the sinner to Christ.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

I hear ya!

The 'lead us to Christ" is not even in the Greek. It meant until Christ. Plus schoolmaster is a bad wording, it is strict pedagogues, the NRSV says, disciplinarian.

 

[Frogster]

Paul told titus to get the law party outta his churches too.


10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach

 

[11822]

incorrect, it was the law, being spoken of.

7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.


are fables being spoken of here?


8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.


Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

 

[Studious One]

that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.[/B]

Paul is talking about teaching fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith about those teaching.
You're taking that scripture way out of Context. Are you implying that if i say that its Gods will to abstain from fornication its a vain Jangling? Was paul jangling when he preached this message below?

It is actually you who is taking verses out of context. Verse 4 is from an entirely different train of thought. Verse 5 begins with a new thought as indicated by the ¶ preceding the verse. Verse 12 begins a new paragraph and another entirely different train of thought.

I quoted from verse 5 through verse 11... I kept the train of thought Paul was conveying to young Timothy in his first epistle to him. And Paul clearly states that the Law is not for the righteous. He does not say 'the penalty of the Law,' he says 'the Law.' James and Peter also taught this same thing in Acts 15, when they clearly told the Jerusalem Council that the Gentile Believers were not to be held to the Law of Moses, calling that Law a yoke that neither they, nor their fathers were able to bear.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

 

[11822]

The will of God is abstaining from fornication among other things. Only a fool would say its a foolish thing to teach the will of God.

 

[Stryder06]

no no no..you said acts 15 was not about the mosaic law, but oral, to which i have shown, u were incorrect. That was the point, no diversions. do u admit that was the Mosaic law that was called a yoke by peter?

I never said a thing about Acts 15 specifically other then the fact that I've read it.

My point is that the law was not in and of itself a burden. It was the laws that were placed on top of the laws which were placed on top of more laws which were surrounded by a fence of laws that was the problem.

The leaders made God's law a burden.

 

[sheina]

The will of God is abstaining from fornication among other things. Only a fool would say its a foolish thing to teach the will of God.

The will of God is for you to stop dwelling on things of the earth and focus on Him.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[11822]

It is actually you who is taking verses out of context. Verse 4 is from an entirely different train of thought. Verse 5 begins with a new thought as indicated by the ¶ preceding the verse. Verse 12 begins a new paragraph and another entirely different train of thought.

I quoted from verse 5 through verse 11... I kept the train of thought Paul was conveying to young Timothy in his first epistle to him. And Paul clearly states that the Law is not for the righteous. He does not say 'the penalty of the Law,' he says 'the Law.' James and Peter also taught this same thing in Acts 15, when they clearly told the Jerusalem Council that the Gentile Believers were not to be held to the Law of Moses, calling that Law a yoke that neither they, nor their fathers were able to bear.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Abstaing from fornication is Gods will. I wouldn't suggest calling that vain jangling. It would only serve to confuse, not edify. Thats why Paul teaches us to abstain from fornication over and over throughout the NT.

 

[Stryder06]

The will of God is for you to stop dwelling on things of the earth and focus on Him.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

You do know that the law is heavenly right? The Most holy place, where the Father is, contains the ark of the covenant which contains the ten commandments.

 

[Studious One]

I never said a thing about Acts 15 specifically other then the fact that I've read it.

My point is that the law was not in and of itself a burden. It was the laws that were placed on top of the laws which were placed on top of more laws which were surrounded by a fence of laws that was the problem.

The leaders made God's law a burden.

But Acts 15 is not about the 'laws that were placed on top of the laws which were placed on top of more laws which were surrounded by a fence of laws'. Acts 15 specifically says that the Jerusalem Council was demanding that the Gentile Converts keep the Law of Moses.

And Peter and James specifically said that the Gentile Converts were not to be put under that yoke. And note also, that the passage tells us that 'it seemed good to the Holy Ghost'.

If it seemed good for the Holy Ghost that the Gentile Converts not be required to follow the Law of Moses, it should seem good for every child of God to not be required to follow the Law of Moses.

 

[11822]

The will of God is for you to stop dwelling on things of the earth and focus on Him.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

To the contrary. I concentrate on the whole will of God, not just part of it.

 

[Stryder06]

But Acts 15 is not about the 'laws that were placed on top of the laws which were placed on top of more laws which were surrounded by a fence of laws'. Acts 15 specifically says that the Jerusalem Council was demanding that the Gentile Converts keep the Law of Moses.

And Peter and James specifically said that the Gentile Converts were not to be put under that yoke. And note also, that the passage tells us that 'it seemed good to the Holy Ghost'.

If it seemed good for the Holy Ghost that the Gentile Converts not be required to follow the Law of Moses, it should seem good for every child of God to not be required to follow the Law of Moses.

My point to frogster was that I wasn't talking about Acts 15. He told me to read it and I told him that I had. The reason why the was law bondage was being demonstrated in my illustration. Thank you for explaining though. I would like to assume that we all know that the gentile believers, while not being converted to Judaism, were still taught the ten commandments though.

Plus the things that were to be given to the Gentiles were still apart of the law of Moses. The point that James was trying to make was that the gentiles didn't need to be given a hard time in their conversion to Christ.

S/N: Thought this was interesting: verse 15 says - Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.