Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)

[11822]

And the Lord Himself teaches the same thing.



Mathew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Studious One]

But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. - Luke 13:27
Iniquity in this passage means: lawlessness.

You may want to go back and check your sources. The word 'iniquity' is translated from the Greek 'adikia', which is never translated as lawlessness.

 

[Studious One]

I showed you in many places. The apostles repeatedly command us and even begs us to to abstain from fornication, lying, stealing and so on. You act like they don't. They reiterate commandments from the 10 to demonstrate love and holiness according to the will of God.

You may want to go back and check your sources. The epistles contain no begging us to abstain from fornication... none whatsoever.

There is instruction to abstain, but there is no begging. You add to the Word of God when you state there is.

Also, the Pauline epistles only mention fornication eleven times in his thirty-one years of preaching the Gospel. Even in his epistles to the Church at Corinth, he only mentioned fornication six times. He did not dwell on it. He told the Churches what they needed to hear and moved on to another subject.

But it is obvious that you are fixated on fornication; having mentioned it no less than two hundred-twenty times in the last forty-four days. This obsession is not edifying to the body of Christ at all. This is a condemning spirit toward those who choose to walk in the liberty wherein Christ has made them free and would have them turn foolishly to follow the law as the legalizers did the Churches in Galatia.

Galatians 3:1-5 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:24-26 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Studious One]

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. - Romans 7:12

I am trying to understand why there seems to be such disdain for the holy, just and good law of God from people who say that they love God.

Romans 8:3-5 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

The law could not cleanse us, that is why Christ had to die for us. Now that we have come to faith in Christ, we are freed from the bondage that required God's people of old to walk in the commandments of the Law.

 

[Studious One]

And the Lord Himself teaches the same thing.



Mathew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Nice pulling Scripture out of context to fit your teaching.

Jesus was not speaking to everyone when He spoke those words, 'but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments', He was speaking to a man who was bound by the Law. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, all the descendants of Jacob were REQUIRED to keep the Law. That was a Law that was established by God for His people Israel. It was not for all.

We see evidence that it was not for all when we read Matthew 10 where Jesus sent out the Apostles to 'heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils.'

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ never instructed His Apostles to teach Gentiles to keep the Mosaic Law. In fact, Paul reveals in Galatians 3 that it is foolish to allow oneself to be bewitched into leaving the Spirit to follow after the Law.

 

[11822]

Nice pulling Scripture out of context to fit your teaching.

Jesus was not speaking to everyone when He spoke those words, 'but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments', He was speaking to a man who was bound by the Law. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, all the descendants of Jacob were REQUIRED to keep the Law. That was a Law that was established by God for His people Israel. It was not for all.

We see evidence that it was not for all when we read Matthew 10 where Jesus sent out the Apostles to 'heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils.'

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Christ never instructed His Apostles to teach Gentiles to keep the Mosaic Law. In fact, Paul reveals in Galatians 3 that it is foolish to allow oneself to be bewitched into leaving the Spirit to follow after the Law.

This is getting to be absurd.

 

[11822]

You may want to go back and check your sources. The epistles contain no begging us to abstain from fornication... none whatsoever.

There is instruction to abstain, but there is no begging. You add to the Word of God when you state there is.

What part of abstaining from fornication is the will of God don't we understand?

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On​

This thread has been cleaned up to remove some flames.
Please remember to address the post not the poster.


Mod Hat Off​

 

[Studious One]

What part of abstaining from fornication is the will of God don't we understand?

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Again, you are taking a verse and making it say what it does not say.

This is the will of God...

What is the will of God?

...even your sanctification...

Why does God want us sanctified?

...that ye abstain from fornication.

The sanctification is a setting apart for Gods service. When one is sanctified, the end result is that that one will abstain from fornication.

Paul is not commanding one to abstain from fornication in order to be sanctified, but exactly the opposite... he is admonishing that one be sanctified in order to abstain from fornication.

 

[11822]

Again, you are taking a verse and making it say what it does not say.

This is the will of God...

What is the will of God?

...even your sanctification...

Why does God want us sanctified?

...that ye abstain from fornication.

The sanctification is a setting apart for Gods service. When one is sanctified, the end result is that that one will abstain from fornication.

Paul is not commanding one to abstain from fornication in order to be sanctified, but exactly the opposite... he is admonishing that one be sanctified in order to abstain from fornication.

That's pretty much what i already said. God does want us separated from the world and abstain from fornication as well as other things. This is all argumentative anyway. The only thing that really matters is that its the will of God for us all. And Paul is making that clear.

 

[Exodus35]

You may want to go back and check your sources. The word 'iniquity' is translated from the Greek 'adikia', which is never translated as lawlessness.

In Matthew 7:23, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
In this passage it comes from the Greek anomia - a legality, i.e. a violation of law or (gen.) wickedness:-iniquity, X transgress (ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Pardon me, I used the wrong scripture for the meaning. In Luke the meaning is: A LEGAL injustice.

Romans 8:3-5 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

The law could not cleanse us, that is why Christ had to die for us. Now that we have come to faith in Christ, we are freed from the bondage that required God's people of old to walk in the commandments of the Law.

No one is disputing that the atonement did what the law couldn't do. The atonement produced the ability to be born again of the Spirit and being born again of the Spirit causes us to be able to live in the will of and obedience to God. You don't throw out the baby with the bath water. The flesh was weak because man was not regerated by the Spirit - the law was weak THROUGH the FLESH, not the Spirit. Now through the Spirit, we are able to live out the righteousness of the law. Read Romans 8:3-5 again.

Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3
And you continue to say that the commandments are a bondage?
You say that you love God and you sound as if you hate his commandments? We are freed from the bondage of sin (transgression of the law), Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the law (not the commandments of God). The commandments of God are not a curse nor are they a burdon or grievous.

 

[Studious One]

In Matthew 7:23, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
In this passage it comes from the Greek anomia - a legality, i.e. a violation of law or (gen.) wickedness:-iniquity, X transgress (ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Pardon me, I used the wrong scripture for the meaning. In Luke the meaning is: A LEGAL injustice.


No one is disputing that the atonement did what the law couldn't do. The atonement produced the ability to be born again of the Spirit and being born again of the Spirit causes us to be able to live in the will of and obedience to God. You don't throw out the baby with the bath water. The flesh was weak because man was not regerated by the Spirit - the law was weak THROUGH the FLESH, not the Spirit. Now through the Spirit, we are able to live out the righteousness of the law. Read Romans 8:3-5 again.

Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 John 5:3
And you continue to say that the commandments are a bondage?
You say that you love God and you sound as if you hate his commandments? We are freed from the bondage of sin (transgression of the law), Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the law (not the commandments of God). The commandments of God are not a curse nor are they a burdon or grievous.

Obviously the commandments John is speaking of cannot be the commandments known as the Mosaic Law. We know this because of the instructions given at the Jerusalem Council...

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Notice that this was not just the decision of man, but the Holy Ghost has a say in the matter as well. And He had James and Peter send out Paul and Barnabas with instructions that must be the commandments John was talking about...

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Notice that Paul and Barnabas were told to lay on the Gentile Believers no greater burden than the necessary things in verse 29. While it is true that these four commands are also found in the Mosaic Law, it cannot be said that James and Peter were instructing us to follow the Mosaic Law... else they would have given a long list of rules and regulations rather than just the four they gave.

 

[from scratch]

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. - Romans 3:31

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. - Romans 13:10


For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. - Galatians 5:14

The law is about loving God and loving your neighbor. If you believe in God and his love is in you, you won't break his commands, even if you don't know the law because you have been born again of the Spirit.
If you love God, you won't have other gods - if you love your neighbor, you won't go after his wife, steal, murder or covet what he has. The commandments are about loving God and loving man. That's why if you are truely regenerated by the Spirit, you will establish the law because the love of God is living in you. You can't say that you love God if you covet, hate, lie to, murder, steal from your neighbor. It's not a combination of those things - all it takes is 1 and you have become quilty of sin.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. - James 2:10

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. - 1 John 3:4

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - 1 John 3:9

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. - 1 John 4:7

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. - 1 John 5:2-3

You don't keep his commands to be saved. You love (do his commands) BECAUSE you are saved.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21

Incidence isn't obedience. My non religious neighbor does most of the law but if you were to approach him with what he deos as obeying the law he would go what? So if every body does it then what is the deal? It must be that everybody doesn't do it or IPO does it involuntarily. If that is so then you have no postion, basis or platform to make a case.

Since you have made a classic SDA speech, why is it that you don't show that faith icon? Is saying one is an SDA saying that they aren't a Christian? The only people or animals I know of that hide in some respect either sinned or are deceiving some one and both are acts of sin. There is no accusation in what I have presented. I only asked a fair question and made a general observation based on personal experience.

 

[11822]

Obviously the commandments John is speaking of cannot be the commandments known as the Mosaic Law. We know this because of the instructions given at the Jerusalem Council...

Why fight the commandments so hard? They are nothing more than laws that ask obedience to the 2 greatest commandments. All but the 4th commandment are taught throughout the NT. Should we obey the 2 greatest commandments but not these? No one is saying we should have faith in the law. The commandments help us understand what love God and neighbor means. No one is saying if we fail to obey perfectly without a mistake that we're are doomed, grace is enough to sustain us. We are commanded to love, who does that perfectly? Its Gods will that we not kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, covetousness or idolatry. Its called love and holiness. And we must continue to mature in love and holiness. It needs to be taught just as much as faith in Jesus.

 

[11822]

Obviously the commandments John is speaking of cannot be the commandments known as the Mosaic Law. We know this because of the instructions given at the Jerusalem Council...

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Notice that this was not just the decision of man, but the Holy Ghost has a say in the matter as well. And He had James and Peter send out Paul and Barnabas with instructions that must be the commandments John was talking about...

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Notice that Paul and Barnabas were told to lay on the Gentile Believers no greater burden than the necessary things in verse 29. While it is true that these four commands are also found in the Mosaic Law, it cannot be said that James and Peter were instructing us to follow the Mosaic Law... else they would have given a long list of rules and regulations rather than just the four they gave.

Also notice How Paul doesn't tell them to love thy neighbor? I thought that was all we needed to do?

The fact that abstaining from fornication is commanded also means adultery is too. Its not mentioned like love also isn't mentioned because obviously Paul teaches it elsewhere and if abstaining from fornication applies so does marriage and abstaining from adultery and divorce. Paul commands us to not steal, lie, covet, commit adultery or fornication in many other places, it goes without saying.

 

[Studious One]

Why fight the commandments so hard? They are nothing more than laws that ask obedience to the 2 greatest commandments. All but the 4th commandment are taught throughout the NT. Should we obey the 2 greatest commandments but not these? No one is saying we should have faith in the law. The commandments help us understand what love God and neighbor means. No one is saying if we fail to obey perfectly without a mistake that we're are doomed, grace is enough to sustain us. We are commanded to love, who does that perfectly? Its Gods will that we not kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, covetousness or idolatry. Its called love and holiness. And we must continue to mature in love and holiness. It needs to be taught just as much as faith in Jesus.

Why fight the Holy Spirit so hard? He said no greater burden than "that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication" be laid upon Gentile Beleivers. You would try to put the Gentile Believers under more than what is authorized by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture says no more is to be laid upon the Gentile Believers. One adds to the Word of God to try to say we must keep the commandments written in the Mosaic Law. John reveals that those that add to the Word of God will have the plagues of the book added to them.

I would not be so bold as to demand the things you demand of those that God has freed from sin through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[11822]

Why fight the Holy Spirit so hard? He said no greater burden than "that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication" be laid upon Gentile Beleivers. You would try to put the Gentile Believers under more than what is authorized by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture says no more is to be laid upon the Gentile Believers. One adds to the Word of God to try to say we must keep the commandments written in the Mosaic Law. John reveals that those that add to the Word of God will have the plagues of the book added to them.

I would not be so bold as to demand the things you demand of those that God has freed from sin through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Talk about taking scripture out of context. Im demanding nothing and not being bold. Im posting the teaching of the apostles.
And what about love? its not mentioned either. Is paul not commanding that they love one another? Should we assume its no longer commanded because its not listed with fornication and meat offered to idols? No. The context as always is Paul abolishing circumcision nothing else. Paul doesn't hang circumcision on their necks but abstaining from fornication and meat offered to idols he does command and hang on their neck. However there are other things Paul doesnt burden them with. But not what im posting.

 

[from scratch]

Why fight the commandments so hard? They are nothing more than laws that ask obedience to the 2 greatest commandments. All but the 4th commandment are taught throughout the NT. Should we obey the 2 greatest commandments but not these? No one is saying we should have faith in the law. The commandments help us understand what love God and neighbor means. No one is saying if we fail to obey perfectly without a mistake that we're are doomed, grace is enough to sustain us. We are commanded to love, who does that perfectly? Its Gods will that we not kill, steal, lie, commit adultery, covetousness or idolatry. Its called love and holiness. And we must continue to mature in love and holiness. It needs to be taught just as much as faith in Jesus.

I don't think that anyone here is fighting the commandments at all. If that was all we were doing we would never offer the alternative of grace and the leading of the Spirit which is being rejected. So I might ask why are some fighting the leading of the Spirit so hard? If salvation doesn't depend on following the law why is it considered a sin to violate any of them? Is it another issue to which an allusion to at least has been cast?

Who said it is God's will for us to perform any of the activities you mention? No one that I recall. The idea is presented by the law crowd and not the grace pushers. No grace pusher that I've seen has done such. Why is this? Could it be part of the fruits of the Spirit in action?

 

[Exodus35]

Scripture says no more is to be laid upon the Gentile Believers. One adds to the Word of God to try to say we must keep the commandments written in the Mosaic Law. John reveals that those that add to the Word of God will have the plagues of the book added to them.
quote]

Question: Do you pay tithes?



No Sir. You are taking away from the word. You are teaching men to break the commandments. Paul was sent to the gentiles, remember? Your reference to Acts 15 is lacking - in that the chapter is about circumcision of the heart and that salvation isn't obtained or retained by circumcision of the flesh. You see that God didn't do away with circumcision - it was taken from the circumcision of the flesh to circumcision of the heart by the Spirit - being sealed by the Holy Spirit. Those who are walking in the Spirit will keep God's commands.

 

[from scratch]

Talk about taking scripture out of context. Im demanding nothing and not being bold. Im posting the teaching of the apostles.
And what about love? its not mentioned either. Is paul not commanding that they love one another? Should we assume its no longer commanded because its not listed with fornication and meat offered to idols? No. The context as always is Paul abolishing circumcision nothing else. Paul doesn't hang circumcision on their necks but abstaining from fornication and meat offered to idols he does command and hang on their neck. However there are other things Paul doesnt burden them with. But not what im posting.

What are all our Scriptural obligations to God?