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If Evolution were true...

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MarkT

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Okay, don't get me wrong. I firmly believe that evolution is a fact.

But for the creationists out there who don't believe that evolution is a fact, I have a question for you.

IF evolution was true, what would we see that we DON'T see in the world around us?

We would see living transitional species. We wouldn’t have to look into a fossil record to find them. They would be all around us.

We would see no families. There would be no species. There would be no species of a family. We would see no divisions.

Right now, we don’t see any transitional species. We see species of fish. We see species of birds. We see species of bacteria. We can neatly classify things and put them into families. We sometimes see new types of bacteria. But they are still bacteria. New species of birds that are still birds. We see every living creature belongs to a family. Logically, if this is true today, then it has always been true. Birds have always been birds. Fish have always been fish. It follows that there have never been any transitional species. There have always been families since creation.
 
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OllieFranz

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I understand that this is what is assumed, but there is no evidence to support the assumption.

To claim the mechanism that gets us variety among equines, canines, finches, fruit flies, etc. can get us from bacteria to all the various lifeforms that have existed is pure philosophical assumption. To play off of your analogy, it's like saying since you can walk from California to Maine you can walk from Earth to Mars if you're just given enough time. It is never going to happen naturally.

A man can, by taking one step at a time, walk from Maine to California. He cannot walk from California to Hawaii, or as you said, to Mars. but that is not due to any limitation in how far he can walk. He can walk from Maine to California and back again, a distance longer that that from California to Hawaii, and over his lifetime he can even walk the distance from Earth to Mars. The limitation is not the distance, but conditions unrelated to distance.

Have you ever seen a child digging a hole to China? You know that he'll never make it. He'll probably be called in for dinner before he gets a few feet, and over the next few days, his parents will either fill in the hole or make him fill it in. But even if his parents allow him to continue he will be stopped when he reaches either the water table (turning his hole into a well) or bedrock (which is too hard for his shovel to penetrate).

As adults, we have ways of digging holes and tunnels past these obstacles and other ones like collapsing tunnel walls, etc. This is analogous to our building boats to get to Hawaii. Nature can build "boats," too, and make huge leaps.

So then, is building a tunnel to china is just a matter of angling it right ang taking the necessary time? No because there are new challenges when we reach the Mantle and Core layers. These are like the challenges of passing up into and through the various layers of the atmosphere on our way to Mars -- or maybe more like the challenge of escaping the earth's gravity. But we have overcome those challenges, too.

But back to the child. He knows nothing about these challenges. His experiences tel him that digging one foot down, the dirt is almost the same as when he started and digging in the same way at the bottom of the one foot hole takes him another foot down, to more dirt that is still almost the same.

If you told him about the difficulties he might not believe you, and if he did believe you he might still continue digging, but to a different purpose. He would now be focused on seeing those difficulties for himself.

If instead of telling him about the difficulties, you simply told him it was impossible, he might believe you, and might never dig another hole, and tell anyone else he saw digging holes that it was a waste of time, but more likely he would not believe you until he found those difficulties for himself. If he was stubborn, he would still be in a mood to defy your fiat of "impossible," and find ways past the obstacles.

You are in the position of telling us that it is impossible. Worse, you are not doing so based on the difficulties, but because someone else told you it was impossible and you believed him, so when challenged, you have nothing to offer to back up your claim. Is it any wonder that the stubborn kids are stil digging, and that some of them have found some of the difficulties, and the ways around them? Yes there may be bigger difficulties ahead, perhaps even one that can't be gotten around. But we have no evidence what that "prime" difficulty could be, and even less that it is absolute.


It has no naturalistic explanation now, and my money is on it never will.

There is a rationalistic explanation now ("The dirt two feet down is almost the same as the dirt one foot down, which is almost the same as the dirt at the top, so its reasonable to assume that the dirt three feet down is the same."). When we get three feet down we will know if it is true or not, but it is reasonable now.
 
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visa

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Some of the evidence in support of theism are absolute morality,
I could say is that why most people in US prisons profess to being religious, but I won't, we know that religions thrive in areas where the educational standards are low which is where most people in prisons started out, they are usually religious only because they are badly educated.
Where is the 'reason' in believing in the supernatural?
evidence of design in nano-technology within cells, genetic code, avian lung, human hands, life, and prophecy, to name a few.
The rest is also pure unadulterated rubbish, why is it rubbish? because without proof you could just as easily put it down to the FSM or any other imagined being, which is what all gods are, figments of someones imagination, please feel free to prove me wrong, but please no 'god is god because god says he's god' nonsense.
 
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AV1611VET

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I could say is that why most people in US prisons profess to being religious, but I won't, we know that religions thrive in areas where the educational standards are low which is where most people in prisons started out, they are usually religious only because they are badly educated.
Maybe in your prisons over there, but in our prisons, some are religious for protection.
 
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Golden Yak

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We would see living transitional species. We wouldn’t have to look into a fossil record to find them. They would be all around us.

Every living thing is a transitional form - a link between what it was, and what it will be. That's what transitional form means. Obviously, we can't predict what modern animals will one day become, so the term mainly only comes up with regards to animals that have a clearer lineage.

We would see no families. There would be no species. There would be no species of a family. We would see no divisions.
What makes you say this?

We can neatly classify things and put them into families. We sometimes see new types of bacteria. But they are still bacteria. New species of birds that are still birds. We see every living creature belongs to a family. Logically, if this is true today, then it has always been true. Birds have always been birds. Fish have always been fish. It follows that there have never been any transitional species. There have always been families since creation.
Everything will always belong to the group it's descended from. Dogs are still dogs and will always be dogs, yes... just as they will always be canines, which will always be caniforms, which will always be mammals, etc...
 
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Split Rock

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Not every scientist operates under an assumption of naturalism and they are making interesting discoveries as a result. Naturalism is not needed to do good science and it is my observation that it has been detrimental in many ways.

I would love to see some examples of the "interesting results" that scientists are making in the absence of naturalism. I am a scientist myself, so this would be quite interesting to me, since I know of no such examples.
 
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Split Rock

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We would see living transitional species. We wouldn’t have to look into a fossil record to find them. They would be all around us.

We would see no families. There would be no species. There would be no species of a family. We would see no divisions.

Right now, we don’t see any transitional species. We see species of fish. We see species of birds. We see species of bacteria. We can neatly classify things and put them into families. We sometimes see new types of bacteria. But they are still bacteria. New species of birds that are still birds. We see every living creature belongs to a family. Logically, if this is true today, then it has always been true. Birds have always been birds. Fish have always been fish. It follows that there have never been any transitional species. There have always been families since creation.
Hey Mark, long time no see. How are you doing? :wave:

1. You want to see transitionals today? Look no further than Ring Species:
Ring Species: Unusual Demonstrations of Speciation (ActionBioscience)
Evolution -- Species Rings

2. There are examples of how difficult it is to differentiate species, especially among microorganisms, which do not undergo sexual reproduction. Species lines are often arbitrary, which is just what you say we do not find.

3. The main reason why we do often see distinct species, is extinction. If species B dies out, then the distinctions betwen spceis A and species C become more obvious.
 
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MarkT

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Hey Mark, long time no see. How are you doing? :wave:

1. You want to see transitionals today? Look no further than Ring Species:
Ring Species: Unusual Demonstrations of Speciation (ActionBioscience)
Evolution -- Species Rings

2. There are examples of how difficult it is to differentiate species, especially among microorganisms, which do not undergo sexual reproduction. Species lines are often arbitrary, which is just what you say we do not find.

3. The main reason why we do often see distinct species, is extinction. If species B dies out, then the distinctions betwen spceis A and species C become more obvious.

Hello Split Rock. Nice to see you too.

Despite your example, which doesn't count, I was talking about living transitional species between families - between fish and land animals and land animals and birds and also between different families of land animals and families of fish and birds.

Macro evolution supposes that a series of small changes took place. So if we look at fish and land animals, for example, we should see hundreds or thousands of species between them. We should see as many creatures as it took to go from one form to another form. In fact, the number of transitional species should far outnumber the species of any particular family. All these creatures didn't go extinct.

You can say they went extinct. It's a convenient answer. But we don't have any record of them - not what we would expect to find - in the fossil record.

Nevertheless, since we don't have any living transitional species today (only the tips of an imaginary tree), it would probably be true that there never were any transitional species at any time. No wonder we can't find them!
 
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OllieFranz

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I don't reject science at all.

Not every scientist operates under an assumption of naturalism and they are making interesting discoveries as a result. Naturalism is not needed to do good science and it is my observation that it has been detrimental in many ways.

I would love to see some examples of the "interesting results" that scientists are making in the absence of naturalism. I am a scientist myself, so this would be quite interesting to me, since I know of no such examples.

WretchedMan,

You may not reject science, but neither do you understand it. It is true that many scientists do not always operates under an assumption of naturalism. They don't when they are in church praying, and naturalism may not be on their minds when they are playing with their grandghildren, especially when they think of them as little miracles. But if they are not operating under an assumption of naturalism when they are "on the job," then whatever it is they are doing, it is not science.

Science is the name we give to the practice of trying to understand the rules under which nature normally operates. A chess rulebook does not include every chess game that has been played, and every chess game yet to be played, and yet we know if a game is chess or not because of whether it follows the rules. Moves that do not follow the rules are possible, and we can even describe circumstances in which they occur, but the games they occur in are not chess. In fact, there is literature aplenty discussing various forms of "fairy chess" and that literature treats those games every bit as seriously as it does chess. But it is not chess, and comprehensive statements about chess may or may not be true about these other games.

I started the last paragraph mentioning the rules "nature normally operates on." In other words, naturalistic rules. That is not to claim that nature can't operate under other non-naturalistic rules nor is it to claim that it has never operated under non-naturalistic rules. The existence of science (or a "belief" in science) does not deny any existence the Divine, the miraculous, or even the influence of the spiritual in nature, but it does, by necessity, ignore them. Any model of the universe that requires non-naturalistic influences is not science.
 
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Hespera

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I would love to see some examples of the "interesting results" that scientists are making in the absence of naturalism. I am a scientist myself, so this would be quite interesting to me, since I know of no such examples.

Who talks about "naturalism"?

it just one of those words that creos think is a magic word to make science go away.
 
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Hespera

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Hello Split Rock. Nice to see you too.

Despite your example, which doesn't count, I was talking about living transitional species between families - between fish and land animals and land animals and birds and also between different families of land animals and families of fish and birds.

Macro evolution supposes that a series of small changes took place. So if we look at fish and land animals, for example, we should see hundreds or thousands of species between them. We should see as many creatures as it took to go from one form to another form. In fact, the number of transitional species should far outnumber the species of any particular family. All these creatures didn't go extinct.

You can say they went extinct. It's a convenient answer. But we don't have any record of them - not what we would expect to find - in the fossil record.

Nevertheless, since we don't have any living transitional species today (only the tips of an imaginary tree), it would probably be true that there never were any transitional species at any time. No wonder we can't find them!

Not sure who "we" are, less still what a group that includes you in the 'we' would be.

And its not a "convenient " answer'. Its completely logical predictable and happens to be true. As for "dont nave any record", well, that aint so.

some organisms have a far better preserved evolutionary history than others, but the pattern of development for all that some gaps exist is laid out, in sequence.

We are not going to see transitional animals today that we KNOW to be transitional in this sense. How could anyone now what its descendants are going to do.

We do tho see lots of things left along the trail between one thing another.

The evolution of the poison fangs of a viper is very well shown by living species with every stage of development from having teeth of uniform size and a saliva gland with mildly anticogulant effect opening over the rear teeth, up to the hinged fangs of a viper.

Between lizards and snakes we have short legged lizards that move like a snake, legless lizards than move like a snake, lizards with transparent eyelids like a snake, lizards with forked tongue like snake, and we snakes witn vestiges of legs.
 
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AV1611VET

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Who talks about "naturalism"?

it just one of those words that creos think is a magic word to make science go away.
Only God can 'make science go away'; and He does at times, when we pray for a miracle.
 
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Split Rock

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Hello Split Rock. Nice to see you too.

Despite your example, which doesn't count, I was talking about living transitional species between families - between fish and land animals and land animals and birds and also between different families of land animals and families of fish and birds.

Macro evolution supposes that a series of small changes took place. So if we look at fish and land animals, for example, we should see hundreds or thousands of species between them. We should see as many creatures as it took to go from one form to another form. In fact, the number of transitional species should far outnumber the species of any particular family. All these creatures didn't go extinct.

You can say they went extinct. It's a convenient answer. But we don't have any record of them - not what we would expect to find - in the fossil record.

Nevertheless, since we don't have any living transitional species today (only the tips of an imaginary tree), it would probably be true that there never were any transitional species at any time. No wonder we can't find them!

OK... so its time now to move the goal posts! So .. you want transitionals between higher taxa now. Well then.. how about our little friend the platypus? He is a mammal, but has many reptilian features, such as laying leathery eggs.

Next, you say we have no transitionals in the fossil record. How about:
1. Fishapods from the Devonian: Devonian Times - Front Page
2. Mammal-like reptiles: Evolution: From Reptiles to Mammals
3. Archaeopteryx: Archaeopteryx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally, you scoff at extinctions. Yet, it is estimated that about 99% of every species that has lived on earth is extinct. Keeping that in mind, it is hardly surprising to find so many transitionals extinct.
 
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AV1611VET

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James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
 
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VehementiDominus

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James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Sorry, I think he means something that actually happened.

Sandwiches, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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AV1611VET

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Sorry, I think he means something that actually happened.
He asked for an example, and I gave him one.

He can accept it or reject it -- that's up to him.

I personally think he will reject it, but again, it's his call.
 
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sandwiches

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Sorry, I think he means something that actually happened.

Sandwiches, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, any example is a good example for what I needed it. :thumbsup:

He asked for an example, and I gave him one.

He can accept it or reject it -- that's up to him.

I personally think he will reject it, but again, it's his call.

I'll accept it. Now, show us where science "went away."
 
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rjc34

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He asked for an example, and I gave him one.

He can accept it or reject it -- that's up to him.

I personally think he will reject it, but again, it's his call.

Why is that automatically considered a miracle, when long droughts in the desert are pretty common? Why automatically assume God must have done it, rather than it just being a coincidence?

Does God continue to mess with the weather? If so, I must ask exactly why the Bible belt was just hit with so many tornadoes, and even areas with tons of Christians praying still get absolutely devastated by weather events? Does he just not care? Are they the wrong type of Christian and he is angry?
 
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MoonLancer

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Only God can 'make science go away'; and He does at times, when we pray for a miracle.
actually that quite wrong. Why doesn't god heal people who have lost a limb? Because its impossible. People simply take rare events that happen within science and claim its a miracle. like remission of cancer or winning the lottery.

Name one miracle, that has happened to someone who has prayed to god and could not happen to someone who has not prayed to god.

Your above example does not work because not raining is not a miracle.
 
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