Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[11822]

What does Gal 5 say?

Paul says in Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live

 

[11822]

I think that not accepting the full NC is a lack of faith. Failure to trust the leading of the Spirit to not lead one into sin is a lack of faith. Rote folowing of a list doesn't require any faith at all.

Ah but i do except it and trust the leading of the Holy Spirit. Only in your mind Do i not. Good thing for me you're not my Judge. Following a list helps me Mortify the deeds of the Body. We are commanded to follow the Words of Jesus. How can i if i don't read them? You call it a list, i call it the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ. So you see i have faith in His words, not a list.

 

[SummaScriptura]

When sin is defined as anything not of faith it referred directly to eating foods and observing days.<snip>

The opposite is actually true.

When sin is defined as anything not of faith it liberates the individual from focusing on external observances as being what God is concerned with. God is more concerned with issues of the heart.

Do we love Him with all of it?

Do we love our neighbor from it?

Do we love the brethren as though with the heart of Christ?

Foods and days definitely take an unimportant place in that light.

 

[ghendricks63]

Paul says in Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live

And of course in Collossians 2 13-15 he said...

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

And as if that weren't enough he concluded the chapter with these words...

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: &#8220;Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!&#8221;? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

You see we really must be careful about cherry picking our favorite verses as a proof text and implying that they must apply to every situation.

 

[11822]

And of course in Collossians 2 13-15 he said...

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

And as if that weren't enough he concluded the chaper with these words...

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

You see we really must be careful about cherry picking our favorite verses as a proof text and implying that they must apply to every situation.

It seems you're hand picking also. Paul said because of love we follow the law that says thou shall not murder, steal, covet, commit adultery and bear false witness. Because of love we establish the law.

 

[ghendricks63]

It seems you're hand picking also. Paul said because of love we follow the law that says thou shall not murder, steal, covet, commit adultery and bear false witness. Because of love we establish the law.

Yes I was cherry picking...that was recisely my point. I like to use scripture to help understand other scripture and look for meanings that bring together (as much as possible) passages that on the surface would appear to be in conflict.

We're all guilty to some degree of proof texting. It is almost impossible to avoid. But we need to be ever mindful of it and try to look deeper in order to avoid simply embracing the surface appearance that would back up our views. The bible is so diverse that nearly any theological position can be supported in such fashion.

 

[11822]

Yes I was cherry picking...that was recisely my point. I like to use scripture to help understand other scripture and look for meanings that bring together (as much as possible) passages that on the surface would appear to be in conflict.

We're all guilty to some degree of proof texting. It is almost impossible to avoid. But we need to be ever mindful of it and try to look deeper in order to avoid simply embracing the surface appearance that would back up our views. The bible is so diverse that nearly any theological position can be supported in such fashion.

True.

 

[11822]

Paul "lists" a few things here.


17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[11822]

First of all when Paul uses the illustration of food or religious holidays he was talking about freedom...NOT SIN. And then he expanded it to include ALL things.

Secondly who said anything about breaking "the 10 C's" at will? Not sure where you got the impression I was suggesting any such thing. (Many believe in a more legalistic interpretation of them than others, but Christ set the record straight on that mistake) I said we are to keep the law of love and if we do there will be no violation of the 10 C's. While I may believe I have more freedom than others believe, I remind you that this is direct Paul teaching and preaching.

I agree he was speaking of freedom but i don't believe it was all things he was speaking about, only all things concerning food are pure. Jesus said the same thing but i never heard Him say Adultery or fornication or murder was pure.

 

[ghendricks63]

I agree he was speaking of freedom but i don't believe it was all things he was speaking about, only all things concerning food are pure. Jesus said the same thing but i never heard Him say Adultery or fornication or murder was pure.

Yes this is a common misunderstanding of what He meant by ALL things. He said he was convinced that nothing was sinful in and of itself...not that an action could not be done in a sinful way. Alcohol clearly is not sinful...but to drink to excess and become a drunkard is. Food follows the same logic. I believe this also applies to the things on your list. Murder is clearly sinful...and yet there are circumstances where most will agree that it is not sinful to take the life of another. Sex is not sinful...but clearly there are many ways to abuse sex. Remember...we are told that to the pure in heart ALL things are pure.

Paul was helping us to understand that actions are not inherantly sinful in and of themselves but only when they are done with an impure heart. In other words...in a manner that would violate the law of love.

 

[11822]

Yes this is a common misunderstanding of what He meant by ALL things. He said he was convinced that nothing was sinful in and of itself...not that an action could not be done in a sinful way. Alcohol clearly is not sinful...but to drink to excess and become a drunkard is. Food follows the same logic. I believe this also applies to the things on your list. Murder is clearly sinful...and yet there are circumstances where most will agree that it is not sinful to take the life of another. Sex is not sinful...but clearly there are many ways to abuse sex. Remember...we are told that to the pure in heart ALL things are pure.

Paul was helping us to understand that actions are not inherantly sinful in and of themselves but only when they are done with an impure heart. In other words...in a manner that would violate the law of love.

I agree. I don't agree that all things are pure all the time and we're free to be impure. Although Grace forgives us for our impurity its not a excuse to be impure. No one is perfect and there is a need to List things because Jesus and Paul lists things, not as a record of wrong doing but help in knowing whats right and wrong. Maybe the 10 Cs are not the complete Law of love depending upon how we apply them, but they are not ever against love.

 

[11822]

Throwing out the list of 10 Cs edifies no one. Explaining how and why we obey them along with explaining Grace does.

 

[ghendricks63]

I agree. I don't agree that all things are pure all the time and we're free to be impure. Although Grace forgives us for our impurity its not a excuse to be impure. No one is perfect and there is a need to List things because Jesus and Paul lists things, not as a record of wrong doing but help in knowing whats right and wrong. Maybe the 10 Cs are not the complete Law of love depending upon how we apply them, but they are not ever against love.

Again I am not arguing that we embrace impurity. All things are pure when done with a pure heart. It is not the action then that is impure but the motive behind the action. BTW - Since Jesus violated at least 2 commandments and yet was without sin, I must submit that even the 10 C's can be done in a fashion that they would violate the law of love. They were guidelines for a time when there was no indwelling Spirit to help men to uphold the law of love. The reverse though simply can not happen. Jesus declared that when we keep the law of love we HAVE KEPT the entire law so it is not possible to be following love and break the intent of the 10 C's.

For those who embrace the law they see doing away with it as being driven by a motive to become lawless and/or impure. For those who embrace grace, we see it as being driven by a motive to become truly pure.

 

[11822]

This arguing over what Paul meant by this or that is not edifying either and we're all guilty.



1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[ghendricks63]

This arguing over what Paul meant by this or that is not edifying either and we're all guilty.

Is that what you think we are doing here? Can't help but wonder why you participate in a Christian discussion forum if not to discuss difficult issues like this and learn from each other. Part of the process of studying to show ourselves approved is to search for the truth in all scripture. Disagreement can be far healthier than mere blind agreement so long as there is a demonstration of mutual respect and Christian love.

 

[11822]

Again I am not arguing that we embrace impurity. All things are pure when done with a pure heart. It is not the action then that is impure but the motive behind the action. BTW - Since Jesus violated at least 2 commandments and yet was without sin, I must submit that even the 10 C's can be done in a fashion that they would violate the law of love. They were guidelines for a time when there was no indwelling Spirit to help men to uphold the law of love. The reverse though simply can not happen. Jesus declared that when we keep the law of love we HAVE KEPT the entire law so it is not possible to be following love and break the intent of the 10 C's.

For those who embrace the law they see doing away with it as being driven by a motive to become lawless and/or impure. For those who embrace grace, we see it as being driven by a motive to become truly pure.

Jesus didn't violate the law of sabbath because He is lord of the sabbath. He declared it lawful to do good on the sabbath just as a man would save his sheep on the sabbath. Maybe the saving of the sheep wasn't considered a crime by the Jews, but when they accused Jesus it became hypocrisy because a man is worth more than a sheep. Jesus was saying that its lawful to do the work of circumcision on the sabbath because God commanded it, and its not unlike saving the sheep either, which may have even been common practice and not considered illegal.

 

[11822]

Btw GHendricks63, I wasn't thinking or implying that you were saying we should embrace impurity. I think we agree on most things.

 

[from scratch]

Throwing out the list of 10 Cs edifies no one. Explaining how and why we obey them along with explaining Grace does.

Will you please explain how the Holy Spirit leads one to sin. The real issue here is sin and not a list of rules. Is there no faith that the Holy Spirit won't lead one to sin? Following the Holy Spirit is like putting an airplane on auto pilot. It flies itself and the manual pilot is pretty much along for the ride.

The old covenant is completely dead. I've no clue what is so hard to understand about that. Keeping the rule list edifies no one either. It only promotes bondage as Jesus indicated and the Apostles did also in Acts 15. Jeremiah said God would issue a new covenant not refurbish the old one. Jesus testified to this fact as accomplished. Hebrews says it is better because of beter promises. Why people love death and not life is beyond me.

 

[ghendricks63]

Jesus didn't violate the law of sabbath because He is lord of the sabbath. He declared it lawful to do good on the sabbath just as a man would save his sheep on the sabbath. Maybe the saving of the sheep wasn't considered a crime by the Jews, but when they accused Jesus it became hypocrisy because a man is worth more than a sheep. Jesus was saying that its lawful to do the work of circumcision on the sabbath because God commanded it, and its not unlike saving the sheep either, which may have even been common practice and not considered illegal.

Yes I may not have been as clear as I meant to be. I agree that Jesus did not violate the law of the sabbath...at least God's the intent of the law. But I don't think it was ONLY because He is Lord of the sabbath for His instructions were pertaining to us as well. Clearly He violated the way the Pharisees interpreted that law many times. One time He even used the example of David entering the temple and eating the consecrated bread as an example of setting the letter of the law aside when it becomes a hinderance to a higher purpose. David's actions represented a clear and direct violation of the wrtten law and yet Jesus excused them.

The principle to me seems clear. The written laws are guidelines rather than absolutes...but the law of love is the true intent. It is only by focusing on it that we can have any real clarity on what God desires of us.

 

[11822]

Is that what you think we are doing here? Can't help but wonder why you participate in a Christian discussion forum if not to discuss difficult issues like this and learn from each other. Part of the process of studying to show ourselves approved is to search for the truth in all scripture. Disagreement can be far healthier than mere blind agreement so long as there is a demonstration of mutual respect and Christian love.

What about non believers who read this stuff, all they see is disagreement. And also, aren't we supposed to remove any stumbling blocks?