Padre Pio on Women's Dress and a touch on Men's

[Michie]

But at the same time, would should not judge a persons intent and motivation for continuing on in a thread.

I'll be honest, when we get into this, "my hands are clean of any mud sling" that also comes off as pride and holier then thou as well.

So IOW, Michie, we (all of us) we just can't win for losing.

Know what I mean?

Its like the Pharisee, was it? who said, "Thank you God that I'm not like them..."

I post becuase I feel its important when I see what I feel (and yes I certainly can be wrong) incorrect stuff being put on ppl that can messed them up.

I totally get what you are saying. It's a good thing I did not imply any of those things. It's not pride... it is what works for me.

 

[benedictaoo]

I totally get what you are saying. It's a good thing I did not imply any of those things. It's not pride... it is what works for me.

No you didn't... but we all should be careful to not say we stand least we fall. NONE of us are above reproach. We all behave badly and there is not a whole lot wrong with that... we forgive and move on.

But seriously, lets get the Pink Elephant out of here... there is one poster or two, or three or maybe its just one, who just keeps posting underlying sentiments of hate towards women and it needs to be corrected and dealt with- once and for all and other ppl, IMO only, I feel they should stop encouraging him and stand up to him... but that is just me.

 

[JoabAnias]

Yeah it's the woman's fault...just like Adam said. I hope people see it is this type of attitude that is causing the strife here. A man is responsible for moderating his own urges...we are more than capable of looking away, not looking or controlling ourselves.

Not that I disagree with you David, men do need to control themselves, but I think he had a good point about willful immodesty which is different than immodesty out of ignorance.

I haven't seen willful immodesty for a while because I left the liberal parish, before that I did see boobs hanging out at the Easter Vigil. I do see ignorant immodesty all the time but that isn't culpable imo. I can't count on two hands the number of mens clubs I have encountered in the city. Literaly I could pinpoint 12 or more for you right now just off the top of my head and I have absolutely no interest in going to one and wouldn't. But something about them, makes their locations stick in my mind. What is that something if its not my intention?

Shouldn't we also mention the immoral sex trade for proper perspective?
A man is not responsible for what indiscriminately crosses his field of view with the intention to cause him to lust. The sex trade seeks to desensitize men and women to the lie of lust. Does it not? Premarital sex and cohabitation are the normal majority now aren't they? Marriage is an excuse to contracept and discard chastity.

Aren't they who willfully and culpably appeal to the natural male proclivity of the eye sharing in some responsibility of a mans fall? There can be no sex trade without both sexes participating and or luring the unwitting. There is plenty of responsibility to go around. Ask any recovered inappropriate contento addict. They know the difference instinctively. Why should a Christian be any less attuned?

Women aren't taught by their mothers to be dignified as much as generations past, they are now more often taught by society to be sensual, provocative and degrading. There is no denying that. We have no cause in the Holy Spirit to fight against purity here. We should be preserving every virtue we can. Maybe we should be defining purity and piety if some think emulation of Mary or the saints is so unchristian or unAmerican.

 

[JoabAnias]

I know, that way my levity back

Well, on my part.

I should have just pictured a fig leaf in my head. There isn't much any funnier than that.

Well except maybe passing gas.

 

[benedictaoo]

But thats the thing Joab- NOT ONE TIME was any of us talking about being willfully immodest.

and that man, has NO point to make when it comes to women, IMO.

 

[benedictaoo]

and I like to make a correction, not everybody here behaves badly... I know I do so I can only speak for me.

 

[JoabAnias]

I totally get what you are saying. It's a good thing I did not imply any of those things. It's not pride... it is what works for me.

You mean you didn't come here to set us all straight? And I thought you really cared.

 

[Michie]

No you didn't... but we all should be careful to not say we stand least we fall. NONE of us are above reproach. We all behave badly and there is not a whole lot wrong with that... we forgive and move on.

But seriously, lets get the Pink Elephant out of here... there is one poster or two, or three or maybe its just one, who just keeps posting underlying sentiments of hate towards women and it needs to be corrected and dealt with- once and for all and other ppl, IMO only, I feel they should stop encouraging him and stand up to him... but that is just me.

I understand where you are coming from. But quite honestly...there is some who cling to stubborness by picking & choosing quotes. I'm used to it from my protestant days & Scripture picking. I've learned long ago to leave it be & let God to the rest. There are too many millstones connected with these types of debates. I think that is why we are called to dust our sandals... not to stay & debate these things.

The OP talks of becoming one of Padre Pio's spiritual daughters because she is obviously called to it. Being Padre Pio's spiritual daughter may call one to a different discipline than say being a spiritual daughter of another Saint.

But it all falls under the guidelines of the Church.

And I think that is what she was wanting to discuss.

Now we are all over the map with burqas, pantyhose, etc.

It's been done to death.

She is just talking about taking a spiritual, path within the RCC she feels called to. Somehow it turned into this. There are many disciplines within the Church. Doing them or not doing them is not being in error as far as I know.

But this thread turned into a black & white issue & it isn't.

I can't make someone see something they don't or refuse to see.

Doing so imo, when it goes beyond discussion & reasoning only spotlights the problem. Feeds it.

Right or wrong that is how I see it.

After a time it just becomes unproductive.

 

[Davidnic]

Not that I disagree with you David, men do need to control themselves, but I think he had a good point about willful immodesty which is different than immodesty out of ignorance.

I haven't seen willful immodesty for a while because I left the liberal parish, before that I did see boobs hanging out at the Easter Vigil. I do see ignorant immodesty all the time but that isn't culpable imo. I can't count on two hands the number of mens clubs I have encountered in the city. Literaly I could pinpoint 12 or more for you right now just off the top of my head and I have absolutely no interest in going to one and wouldn't. But something about them, makes their locations stick in my mind. What is that something if its not my intention?

Shouldn't we also mention the immoral sex trade for proper perspective?
A man is not responsible for what indiscriminately crosses his field of view with the intention to cause him to lust. The sex trade seeks to desensitize men and women to the lie of lust. Does it not? Premarital sex and cohabitation are the normal majority now aren't they? Marriage is an excuse to contracept and discard chastity.

Aren't they who willfully and culpably appeal to the natural male proclivity of the eye sharing in some responsibility of a mans fall? There can be no sex trade without both sexes participating and or luring the unwitting. There is plenty of responsibility to go around. Ask any recovered inappropriate contento addict. They know the difference instinctively. Why should a Christian be any less attuned?

Women aren't taught by their mothers to be dignified as much as generations past, they are now more often taught by society to be sensual, provocative and degrading. There is no denying that. We have no cause in the Holy Spirit to fight against purity here. We should be preserving every virtue we can. Maybe we should be defining purity and piety if some think emulation of Mary or the saints is so unchristian or unAmerican.

anyone who willfully decides to lead another to sin with that intention is a different story. And yes, there should be more general respect for the human body that would be reflected in a common sense modest expression in fashion that we don't see as the norm.

But in general men need to not use women as excuses. That is an old line of thought that is culturally dead. And some people like to use women as Scapegoats for their own weakness. That is wrong too, and I know we agree on that and do not think you feel how I describe above.

Purity and Modesty are for us all. It is wrong for some men to demand women be modest so the man does not have to strive to be pure.

We are all called to these virtues in heart and action. There is a joint responsibility for all this. Men are, by far, the highest consumers of inappropriate contentography...that is not the fault of the woman but the man. And I think that is related here. Men need to not be allowed to use the woman as an excuse anymore. And everyone needs to embrace a common sense modesty in fashion.

I think this is why the newest AX commercial with the angels offends me so much.

 

[MKJ]

Well, on my part.

I should have just pictured a fig leaf in my head. There isn't much any funnier than that.

Well except maybe passing gas.

What you really have to watch out for is passing gas while only wearing a fig leaf. That can be really immodest.

 

[Michie]

You mean you didn't come here to set us all straight? And I thought you really cared.

Just feeling mouthy.

Seriously, I can only say what works for me in these situations. People are going to do what they are going to do. Just plopping the slug in my pocket into the well.

 

[benedictaoo]

I understand where you are coming from. But quite honestly...there is some who cling to stubborness by picking & choosing quotes. I'm used to it from my protestant days & Scripture picking. I've learned long ago to leave it be & let God to the rest. There are too many millstones connected with these types of debates. I think that is why we are called to dust our sandals... not to stay & debate these things.

The OP talks of becoming one of Padre Pio's spiritual daughters because she is obviously called to it. Being Padre Pio's spiritual daughter may call one to a different discipline than say being a spiritual daughter of another Saint.

But it all falls under the guidelines of the Church.

And I think that is what she was wanting to discuss.

Now we are all over the map with burqas, pantyhose, etc.

It's been done to death.

She is just talking about taking a spiritual, path within the RCC she feels called to. Somehow it turned into this. There are many disciplines within the Church. Doing them or not doing them is not being in error as far as I know.

But this thread turned into a black & white issue & it isn't.

I can't make someone see something they don't or refuse to see.

Doing so imo, when it goes beyond discussion & reasoning only spotlights the problem. Feeds it.

Right or wrong that is how I see it.

After a time it just becomes unproductive.

fair enough.

 

[Michie]

Isa! You should start a new thread.

 

[benedictaoo]

anyone who willfully decides to lead another to sin with that intention is a different story. And yes, there should be more general respect for the human body that would be reflected in a common sense modest expression in fashion that we don't see as the norm.

But in general men need to not use women as excuses. That is an old line of thought that is culturally dead. And some people like to use women as Scapegoats for their own weakness. That is wrong too, and I know we agree on that and do not think you feel how I describe above.

Purity and Modesty are for us all. It is wrong for some men to demand women be modest so the man does not have to strive to be pure.

We are all called to these virtues in heart and action. There is a joint responsibility for all this. Men are, by far, the highest consumers of inappropriate contentography...that is not the fault of the woman but the man. And I think that is related here. Men need to not be allowed to use the woman as an excuse anymore. And everyone needs to embrace a common sense modesty in fashion.

I think this is why the newest AX commercial with the angels offends me so much.

Amen and to keep blaming them for their own personal failings, leads to a unhealthy view of women and it leads to hating them.

I see that women are hated here and If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.

Lord have Mercy.... I'm thinking more and more this cover the body from head to toe is seriously for very special ppl who are so called by the Lord becuase more can go wrong with it then go right, I-M-O...

 

[JoabAnias]

anyone who willfully decides to lead another to sin with that intention is a different story. And yes, there should be more general respect for the human body that would be reflected in a common sense modest expression in fashion that we don't see as the norm.

But in general men need to not use women as excuses. That is an old line of thought that is culturally dead. And some people like to use women as Scapegoats for their own weakness. That is wrong too, and I know we agree on that and do not think you feel how I describe above.

Purity and Modesty are for us all. It is wrong for some men to demand women be modest so the man does not have to strive to be pure.

We are all called to these virtues in heart and action. There is a joint responsibility for all this. Men are, by far, the highest consumers of inappropriate contentography...that is not the fault of the woman but the man. And I think that is related here. Men need to not be allowed to use the woman as an excuse anymore. And everyone needs to embrace a common sense modesty in fashion.

I think this is why the newest AX commercial with the angels offends me so much.

Going back to my mention about the womans boob flopping out in front of us at the Easter Vigil Mass in 2008. What would you say caused this woman to wear something so low cut and bra-less to an Easter vigil Mass that allowed this flop out to happen when she stood up, turned and bent around to pick up her purse?

I am not suggesting it was something she did intentionally at all. If anything I would assume she considered herself dressed completely appropriately for Mass, however, what influence might it have been to think wearing something so risqué was appropriate in the first place? Where would such attire be appropriate?

Also, I would be the last one to excuse the consumption of inappropriate content by men on any woman and I expect men to be responsible men but that doesn't answer the responsibility of the woman who participates in its production, does it? What would that be exactly? It must be something, isn't it? And I agree, everyone needs to practice common sense modesty. The problem for folks seems to be that individual senses of modesty are not necessarily the same thing for everyone. I dress casually but I could dress up for the right occasion. I might like to wear a beard while someone else would think I was dirty to do so. See what I mean?

I actually own a tux that I have only worn 3 times. It wouldn't be modest of me to wear it to Mass even if I felt I was doing it to honor the Lord right? Why is that, because of what people would think? Would what people think make that calling wrong?

 

[Davidnic]

Going back to my mention about the womans boob flopping out in front of us at the Easter Vigil Mass in 2008. What would you say caused this woman to wear something so low cut and bra-less to an Easter vigil Mass that allowed this flop out to happen when she stood up, turned and bent around to pick up her purse?

Probably unconscious desensitization to that type of fashion due to society's general lax attitude toward fashion that is basically nudity.

 

[JoabAnias]

Just feeling mouthy.

Seriously, I can only say what works for me in these situations. People are going to do what they are going to do. Just plopping the slug in my pocket into the well.

Well you and Isa can save me anytime. Of course I have to let her. I promised to.

 

[JoabAnias]

Probably unconscious desensitization to that type of fashion due to society's general lax attitude toward fashion that is basically nudity.

To me that is the crux of the whole issue. Its the only part where there seems to be a difference to be made. In what is appropriate or not.

Judging anothers sense of modesty seems rediculous to me. Its either the one from the Holy Spirit to some degree or its not. Like I think you mentioned pages ago, there are many variables in how that fruit can be manifested. Those ways can't be discounted either.

 

[JoabAnias]

What you really have to watch out for is passing gas while only wearing a fig leaf. That can be really immodest.

Thats exactly what I was picturing when I wrote that!

Now guess what I was thinking of doing with a bic lighter?

 

[JoabAnias]

It's good to correct. We should. But if it is rejected you just got to dust the old sandals.

I know in my conversion experience I put my nose in the books & talked with my priest. I recommend it.

Faith & witness is too important to turn it into a sparring match.

I know its good, I think I have just learned that in certain cases is futile. Without humility involved I am just like the apostles who couldn't cast out the demon.

You're third line reminded me of this scripture that needs to sink in:

Galatians 5:15
But if you bite and devour one another; take heed you be not consumed one of another.