Paul confessing that he keeps the Law.

[Rose_bud]

Notice Who's voice the Disciples are told to listen to in Matt 17:5. One of the most awsome verses in the NT/NC

Matthew 17:5 Still of Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud over-shadows them.
And behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the beloved, in whom I delight,
be ye hearing Him[SIZE=+0]!". [/SIZE]
[Deut 18/Acts 3:22/Revelation 2:18]

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the Out-called in Thyatira, write!
Now this is saying the Son of the God, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass.

Deut 18:15

 

[Frogster]

I disagree with this, they refer to Abraham, obeying Gods voice, when he was told to get out of his country, and when he was told to sacrifice his son, and when he was instructed to circumcise his sons.. My laws.. can also means.. my instructions

exactly, the law party can not post 1 NT vese, using Abe, so they have to go against all of the clear imperatives in the NT, and grope around trying to prove their point.

Good post.

 

[yedida]

Notice Who's voice the Disciples are told to listen to in Matt 17:5. One of the most awsome verses in the NT/NC

Matthew 17:5 Still of Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud over-shadows them.
And behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the beloved, in whom I delight,
be ye hearing Him[SIZE=-0]!". [/SIZE]
[Deut 18/Acts 3:22/Revelation 2:18]

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the Out-called in Thyatira, write!
Now this is saying the Son of the God, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass.

Name one time where Jesus spoke opposite of what the Torah teaches.
Even in the Beatitudes where He says, "you have heard it said....but I say to you..." He is NOT tearing down what had been heard (and that right there shows what had been heard was not necessarily what had been written) or where He said, "...it is written...but I say unto you...", but instead He was elucidating on the command, making it clearer, bringing it home so to speak, showing how to live it. His entire ministry was wrapped up in Torah.
And He also said that the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses, that the people were to do as they say, but not do as they do, for the Pharisees tell others to do things that they themselves do not do. Jesus NEVER ONCE said that in 3 years time the Torah would die a sad death. Instead He said that the Torah would be alive and well and valid as long as there was a sun, a moon and an earth and prophecy concerning Himself still to be fulfilled. You cannot refute that without calling Jesus (reader may supply needed term), well, you cannot refute that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

<snip>
Instead He said that the Torah would be alive and well and valid as long as there was a sun, a moon and an earth and prophecy concerning Himself still to be fulfilled.
You cannot refute that without calling Jesus (reader may supply needed term), well, you cannot refute that.

Well let's see what the bible says about the "sun and moon"
I would ask the unbelieving Jews how they view Revelation 6:12, but from what I understand, they believe that book is just a pagan greek myth

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
(sun AND moon)
occurs in 35 verses in the KJV

Young) Acts 2:20 the sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the day of the Lord--the great and illustrious;
[Joel 2:10,31/3:15/Matt 24:29/Mark 13:24/Luke 21:25/Reve 6:12]

Young) Revelation 6:12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,

http://www.christianforums.com/t7278127/
Symbolism of Moon to blood Joel 2 question

 

[yedida]

Well let's see what the bible says about the "sun and moon"
I would ask the unbelieving Jews how they view Revelation 6:12, but from what I understand, they believe that book is just a pagan greek myth

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
(sun AND moon)
occurs in 35 verses in the KJV

Young) Acts 2:20 the sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the day of the Lord--the great and illustrious;
[Joel 2:10,31/3:15/Matt 24:29/Mark 13:24/Luke 21:25/Reve 6:12]

Young) Revelation 6:12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood,

http://www.christianforums.com/t7278127/
Symbolism of Moon to blood Joel 2 question

And the sun has not yet been darkened nor has the moon yet been turned to as blood.
I know your preterist stance but for the rest of us and history the 6th seal has yet to be opened. Good try.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And the sun has not yet been darkened nor has the moon yet been turned to as blood.
I know your preterist stance but for the rest of us and history the 6th seal has yet to be opened. Good try.

Well, I could always take the Amill stance, since they also view that as fulfilled

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522417/
Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20

 

[yedida]

Well, I could always take the Amill stance, since they also view that as fulfilled

http://www.christianforums.com/t7522417/
Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20

I could actually lean in either of those positions if it were not for the question regarding the putting away of evil for 1000years. No matter how hard one may try, I could not ever be convinced we are not living in extremely evil days. Unless, of course, one doesn't consider the fact that people are being killed at random by drive-bys, children are stolen in the night right out of their beds, people are waging wars for no reason other than that they can, etc., etc., as evil.....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I could actually lean in either of those positions if it were not for the question regarding the putting away of evil for 1000years. No matter how hard one may try, I could not ever be convinced we are not living in extremely evil days. Unless, of course, one doesn't consider the fact that people are being killed at random by drive-bys, children are stolen in the night right out of their beds, people are waging wars for no reason other than that they can, etc., etc., as evil.....

Yeah.
That mysterious 1000yr period has really been the "bane" of Christianity since Revelation was written

http://www.christianforums.com/t4306995/
What is the purpose of the 1000 Millenium?

If you read in the book of Revelation about the millenium, it talks about how Christ will establish His kingdom here on earth and that satan will be confined in the bottomless abyss. At the end of those 1000 years, satan will be released one last time and go out to deceive the nations to wage war with Christ.

Has anyone ever wondered why, though? Why will satan be confined for that amount of time, only to be released again?

I don't know about anyone else, but as I study the book of Revelation more and more, I notice there are some things about the end times that are much more than meets the eye.

And what about God's warning in chapter 22, verse 18-19?

 

[from scratch]

Name one time where Jesus spoke opposite of what the Torah teaches.
Even in the Beatitudes where He says, "you have heard it said....but I say to you..." He is NOT tearing down what had been heard (and that right there shows what had been heard was not necessarily what had been written) or where He said, "...it is written...but I say unto you...", but instead He was elucidating on the command, making it clearer, bringing it home so to speak, showing how to live it. His entire ministry was wrapped up in Torah.
And He also said that the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses, that the people were to do as they say, but not do as they do, for the Pharisees tell others to do things that they themselves do not do. Jesus NEVER ONCE said that in 3 years time the Torah would die a sad death. Instead He said that the Torah would be alive and well and valid as long as there was a sun, a moon and an earth and prophecy concerning Himself still to be fulfilled. You cannot refute that without calling Jesus (reader may supply needed term), well, you cannot refute that.

So which prophecies about Jesus are not fulfilled? Must be in the law, Psalms and prophets.

 

[from scratch]

I disagree with this, they refer to Abraham, obeying Gods voice, when he was told to get out of his country, and when he was told to sacrifice his son, and when he was instructed to circumcise his sons.. My laws.. can also means.. my instructions

Sister!

I think there is a difference in the law and law. I think these terms are used interchangably to further an agenda.

 

[bugkiller]

It makes perfect sense, unless you happen to think that Jesus redeemed us from the Law.

Jesus redeemed us from the CURSE of the Law, not the Law itself. The curse is the curse, death etc.

Jesus came that we may have life, and have it more abundantly!

Now if God sent His Spirit to move us to keep the Law, how can anyone claim that the Law has been done away with?

Have you per chance come accross this: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

They all refer to God's Law.

Are you calling God's law the ten commandments as well? Are they not also called the law? Say in Romans 7 something and also James as I have seen recently. So what is the difference if any? I have also seen it claimed that the ten commandments came after Abraham. Is this correct?

bugkiller

 

[yedida]

So which prophecies about Jesus are not fulfilled? Must be in the law, Psalms and prophets.

I will have no problem answering you but will not until you answer my question which I have been asking for about a week now. Why won't you answer it?

 

[Lulav]

Like rose-bud said he believed all in the law and prophets..so?


Acts 3:22
Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.


Now do what Jesus tells you, and listen to his chosen instrument please.


Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.

Are you really positing that Paul was the prophet that Moses spoke of?

In context Peter was speaking of Jesus, not Paul. Does that really make any sense to you for make this about Paul when he wasn't even on the scene yet?

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets sincebegan. the world 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers , A prophet shall the Lord yourGod raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear inthings whatsoever he shall say unto you. all 23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

That prophet was not Paul, no more than it was Muhammad.

 

[from scratch]

I will have no problem answering you but will not until you answer my question which I have been asking for about a week now. Why won't you answer it?

I have not idea where to even find it. I must have missed it. So tell me where it is or repost.

 

[yedida]

I have not idea where to even find it. I must have missed it. So tell me where it is or repost.

You asked me a question, rather than answering mine in post 389.

 

[from scratch]

Name one time where Jesus spoke opposite of what the Torah teaches.

I'm not usre what you mean. Jesus didn't teach people to sin that is vioalte the law. What Jesus taught was different from the law. Such as you have herad it said, but I say....shows that it is different from the law. In Luke 16:16 we have - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. We have John 8:1-11 which IMO shows a change of the law as promised by Jeremiah in 31:31-34.

Even in the Beatitudes where He says, "you have heard it said....but I say to you..." He is NOT tearing down what had been heard (and that right there shows what had been heard was not necessarily what had been written) or where He said, "...it is written...but I say unto you...", but instead He was elucidating on the command, making it clearer, bringing it home so to speak, showing how to live it. His entire ministry was wrapped up in Torah.

Well you say elucidating and I say making the law tougher. As I mentioned above and you quoted the phraseology Jesus used shows a change and not an explanation of the law. I don't find it a sin according to the law to look at a woman with lust a sin. It became a sin when acted on according to the law. Thoughts weren't punishable by the law. At least not the way I read it. Perhaps you can show otherwise.

And He also said that the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses, that the people were to do as they say, but not do as they do, for the Pharisees tell others to do things that they themselves do not do. Jesus NEVER ONCE said that in 3 years time the Torah would die a sad death. Instead He said that the Torah would be alive and well and valid as long as there was a sun, a moon and an earth and prophecy concerning Himself still to be fulfilled. You cannot refute that without calling Jesus (reader may supply needed term), well, you cannot refute that.

I assume that you refer to Mat 5:17-18 put together with Mat 24:29. First of all the law isn't mentioned in Mat 24. So that is ruled out leaving only 5:17-18. Here is what Jesus says concerning those words - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. (Lk 24:44) This excludes end time events. We also have Heb 7:12 which states - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Are you going to deny Jesus is our priest? I think I have covered this with you before. Jesus is from the tribe of Judah as shown in Matthew and Luke. A priest must come thru the tribe of Levi only. I'm pretty sure that this change is prophecied in the OT. I know without a doubt that the Redeemer comes thru King David.

 

[yedida]

I'm not usre what you mean. Jesus didn't teach people to sin that is vioalte the law. What Jesus taught was different from the law. Such as you have herad it said, but I say....shows that it is different from the law. In Luke 16:16 we have - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. We have John 8:1-11 which IMO shows a change of the law as promised by Jeremiah in 31:31-34. Well you say elucidating and I say making the law tougher. As I mentioned above and you quoted the phraseology Jesus used shows a change and not an explanation of the law. I don't find it a sin according to the law to look at a woman with lust a sin. It became a sin when acted on according to the law. Thoughts weren't punishable by the law. At least not the way I read it. Perhaps you can show otherwise.I assume that you refer to Mat 5:17-18 put together with Mat 24:29. First of all the law isn't mentioned in Mat 24. So that is ruled out leaving only 5:17-18. Here is what Jesus says concerning those words - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. This excludes end time events. We also have Heb 7:12 which states - For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Are you going to deny Jesus is our priest? I think I have coivered this with you before. Jesus is from the tribe of Judah as shown in Matthew and Luke. A priest must come thru the tribe of Levi only. I'm pretty sure that this change is prophecied in the OT. I know without a doubt that the Redeemer comes thru King David.

I stated in the question that Jesus refers to "having heard" and that very likely is Oral Torah, that His "it is written" is the written Torah. I also stated and stand by the fact that rather than abolishing the Torah, if anything, made it a bit more difficult. All sin begins in the thought processes.
The things that were written about Him in the Law were indeed fulfilled, but not all things written about Him have as yet been fulfilled. Unless you believe that He is already on His throne ruling from Jerusalem, and all Israel has been saved. Ergo, Law is not abolished.
Paul and some unknown author can scream as loud as they want that the Law is void and nil, but I'll believe what Yeshua had to say.
If, when this is all over, it turns out I could've eaten shrimp and pork, no big deal. I won't be punished for wanting to be pleasing to my Abba. On the other hand, if He didn't abolish the Torah, then I'm good. It should be something to think about when Paul is the only one who seems to say that it's been done away with.
John, Peter, Jude and James all say that Torah is alive and well, but most importantly, Yeshua says it. Are these all deluded and only Paul has the right information?

 

[from scratch]

I stated in the question that Jesus refers to "having heard" and that very likely is Oral Torah, that His "it is written" is the written Torah. I also stated and stand by the fact that rather than abolishing the Torah, if anything, made it a bit more difficult. All sin begins in the thought processes.
The things that were written about Him in the Law were indeed fulfilled, but not all things written about Him have as yet been fulfilled. Unless you believe that He is already on His throne ruling from Jerusalem, and all Israel has been saved. Ergo, Law is not abolished.
Paul and some unknown author can scream as loud as they want that the Law is void and nil, but I'll believe what Yeshua had to say.
If, when this is all over, it turns out I could've eaten shrimp and pork, no big deal. I won't be punished for wanting to be pleasing to my Abba. On the other hand, if He didn't abolish the Torah, then I'm good. It should be something to think about when Paul is the only one who seems to say that it's been done away with.
John, Peter, Jude and James all say that Torah is alive and well, but most importantly, Yeshua says it. Are these all deluded and only Paul has the right information?

What was done in the syanagogue every sabbath? Further more don't we hear because we read something. Making it oral law because the words having heard are used is out right ludicrous.

I ask what in the law, prophets and psalms aren't fulfilled. This is a request to have them named. Nonspecific general opinion statements weren't requested. I took it that you can quote at least one prophecy located in the law, prophets and psalms about Jesus that wasn't fulfilled. At least that was my challenge and it was said it would be met. Now where is the prophecy. The answer I got is avoidance and personal opinion with nothing but hot air for a foundation. Anything found in the NT doesn't quailfy as from the law, prophets and psalms unless it is a quote therefrom.

Your statement above proves that Jesus is a liar or the Bible isn't inspired. Neither are acceptable to me. If I were to accept either you can rest assured I wouldn't be wasting my time here.

 

[yedida]

What was done in the syanagogue every sabbath? Further more don't we hear because we read something. Making it oral law because the words having heard are used is out right ludicrous.

I ask what in the law, prophets and psalms aren't fulfilled. This is a request to have them named. Nonspecific general opinion statements weren't requested. I took it that you can quote at least one prophecy located in the law, prophets and psalms about Jesus that wasn't fulfilled. At least that was my challenge and it was said it would be met. Now where is the prophecy. The answer I got is avoidance and personal opinion with nothing but hot air for a foundation. Anything found in the NT doesn't quailfy as from the law, prophets and psalms unless it is a quote therefrom.

Your statement above proves that Jesus is a liar or the Bible isn't inspired. Neither are acceptable to me. If I were to accept either you can rest assured I wouldn't be wasting my time here.

I mentioned Oral Torah because if I hadn't, you would have said that He was speaking of it rather than the Law. It doesn't matter, He did not abolish either.
No, your acceptance of what you think one man meant makes either him or everyone else a liar. When given that scenario, I'll choose what Yeshua clearly stated, over other's convoluted doctrines created on misunderstandings.
You wrote many words but did not show where Jesus did what you claim.
As far as prophecy concerning the Lord yet to be completely fulfilled, you can look at Ezek. 37, 38, 39, Dan. 2:38-44; 7:23-25; Zech. 14.
You may have the last word. Have a good day.