UN staff killed during protest in northern Afghanistan

[Crusader05]

I don't think anyone here is justifying violence. Personally I just don't understand how anyone can get so upset about this. It is not just the Taliban. There are a lot of people angry about this. Sure he had the right to burn the book if he wanted to, but the point is that this person knew what he was doing. The pastor knew people would get hurt.

It looks very much like there are some making an argument for why these religious extremists are victims of this pastor's provocation.

The pastor is another religious extremists and an idiot but he is not to blame for the totally unreasonable and inhuman reactions of these murderers. The blame rests totally with those who attacked and beheaded these UN workers.

 

[ShaunJ72]

When one murders and holds that level of hatred- they really DON'T hold any love in their hearts.

What is the difference between a Moslem extremist and a Christian (Hindu/Jewish whatever) extremist? Do tell...

An absolutist and intolerant blind faith, born out of fear and ignorance, is precisely what they share in common. While many people choose to ignore this uncomfortale fact, Christianity's history is as undeniably blood-spattered as Islam's - arguably more so. Such extremism is and always will be a dark and indelible stain on the history of humanity.

This man and his church clearly knew very well what the consequences were likely to be of this provocative act, and wanted naive people to look upon the inevitable carnage and judge it as Islam acting up to it's violent reputation. Guess what, it worked.

Both he and and the people who committed the murders represent exactly the same thing. Extremist hate.

"Without [religion] you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things it takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

 

[Crusader05]

What is the difference between a Moslem extremist and a Christian (Hindu/Jewish whatever) extremist? Do tell...

An absolutist and intolerant blind faith, born out of fear and ignorance, is precisely what they share in common. While many people choose to ignore this uncomfortale fact, Christianity's history is as undeniably blood-spattered as Islam's - arguably more so. Such extremism is and always will be a dark and indelible stain on the history of humanity.

This man and his church clearly knew very well what the consequences were likely to be of this provocative act, and wanted naive people to look upon the inevitable carnage and judge it as Islam acting up to it's violent reputation. Guess what, it worked.

Both he and and the people who committed the murders represent exactly the same thing. Extremist hate.

"Without [religion] you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things it takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

I'm going to have to disagree, I see a big difference between burning a book and cutting someone's head off. You seem to put them on the same level here.

I fully agree blind faith is bad but it is very apparent that islam has many more bad actors than any other religion. Your equivocation that they are all bad ignores the reality that Pat Robertson isn't leading beheadings on the 700 Club.

 

[ShaunJ72]

Terry Jones is as guilty as the Imams in the mosques in Mazar-i-Sharif who wound those people up to the point where they would kill. Widespread carnage and death was the expected consequence of their actions, and lo, it came to pass.

He was warned not to do it. He was told that people were likely to be killed if he did it, yet he still did it, and he now has blood on his hands.

Do you think he will now stop trying to provoke Moslems because many people have died as a direct result of his actions?

In terms of 'bad actors', lest we forget, right wing Christians also have a track record of also murdering people over issues as important to them as the Koran is important to Moslems. I do not deny that Islam is currently a more violent religion that Christianity, but more often than not in history it has been the opposite case.

Take a look at Uganda right now, the most Christian country in Africa, and tell me what you see...

 

[DR.Martin Luther]

The Apostle Paul didn't have a problem with people burning their books of falsehood. Acts 19:19. Nor did he worry about the consequences of confronting a society different then his own with the message of the Truth. In many cities where Paul preached, uprisings occured by men who wanted to keep worshiping their idols and false gods. Should we not tell people that Muhammad was a false prophet and that his writings are worthless, even if it offends them. And should we then not give them the one who is the TRUTH.
I dare say that the apostle Paul would probably be considered a fringe, wacko preacher by tody's toleration of everything standards. And it is also sad to see this same toleration of false gods creep into the church, not wanting to offend people in the name of toleration. You don't really love your brother if you aren't man enough to tell them the TRUTH.

 

[Supreme]

Terry Jones is as guilty as the Imams in the mosques in Mazar-i-Sharif who wound those people up to the point where they would kill. Widespread carnage and death was the expected consequence of their actions, and lo, it came to pass.

He was warned not to do it. He was told that people were likely to be killed if he did it, yet he still did it, and he now has blood on his hands.

Do you think he will now stop trying to provoke Moslems because many people have died as a direct result of his actions?

In terms of 'bad actors', lest we forget, right wing Christians also have a track record of also murdering people over issues as important to them as the Koran is important to Moslems. I do not deny that Islam is currently a more violent religion that Christianity, but more often than not in history it has been the opposite case.

Take a look at Uganda right now, the most Christian country in Africa, and tell me what you see...

These protests are NOT a natural reaction to the burning of the Quran. They are WAY over the top. Burning a Quran is very disrespectful, but you don't expect people to die over someone burning a holy text.

Uganda is in a sorry state, but there are worse countries in worse situations- and to blame it on Christianity shows somewhat of a childish oversimplification and naivety of the situation. You are totally disregarding socio-economic factors. Which, y'know, also could be a factor.

 

[ShaunJ72]

The Apostle Paul didn't have a problem with people burning their books of falsehood. Acts 19:19. Nor did he worry about the consequences of confronting a society different then his own with the message of the Truth. In many cities where Paul preached, uprisings occured by men who wanted to keep worshiping their idols and false gods. Should we not tell people that Muhammad was a false prophet and that his writings are worthless, even if it offends them. And should we then not give them the one who is the TRUTH.

I dare say that the apostle Paul would probably be considered a fringe, wacko preacher by tody's toleration of everything standards. And it is also sad to see this same toleration of false gods creep into the church, not wanting to offend people in the name of toleration. You don't really love your brother if you aren't man enough to tell them the TRUTH.

Ah well, that's your absolutist 'TRUTH' isn't it, while a moslem believer's 'truth' is obviously something very different from that. I fail to see how your book and your ultra-dogmatic, so-called truth is any more valid than theirs? (There is no evidence at all to suggest it is, and that sir is the TRUTH).

 

[Crusader05]

Do you think he will now stop trying to provoke Moslems because many people have died as a direct result of his actions?

The question should be why are muslims so provokable? Why do they commit acts of violence because someone burns a book or draws a cartoon?

I'm not sure what the answer is but clearly there is an attitude in this religion that encourages this kind of behavior.

 

[Crusader05]

Ah well, that's your absolutist 'TRUTH' isn't it, while a moslem believer's 'truth' is obviously something very different from that. I fail to see how your book and your ultra-dogmatic, so-called truth is any more valid than theirs? (There is no evidence at all to suggest it is, and that sir is the TRUTH).

I'll agree with you here. One cannot deny that the muslims are very strident in their beliefs, to the point where some would blow himself up for their faith. One could ask why more christians aren't this way.

The answer is that christianity has been through a reformation and western civilization has been through an enlightenment.

 

[ShaunJ72]

These protests are NOT a natural reaction to the burning of the Quran. They are WAY over the top. Burning a Quran is very disrespectful, but you don't expect people to die over someone burning a holy text.

Uganda is in a sorry state, but there are worse countries in worse situations- and to blame it on Christianity shows somewhat of a childish oversimplification and naivety of the situation. You are totally disregarding socio-economic factors. Which, y'know, also could be a factor.

Terry Jones was warned that people may die, but he went ahead anyway, knowing full well how Moslems feel about their book. Yes, murdering someone is a shockingly disproprtionate response to burning a book, but my point was that burning a book, any book, knowing that x number of people are likely to die (by someone else's hand) as a direct consequence is almost as bad. Does anyone want to tell me that he bears no responsibility for what happened?

Here's an idea Terry: don't burn the book!!!

Another disporoportionate response, and the reason I mentioned Uganda, is people being routinely beaten to death in that country because the Christian church in Uganda actively encourages people to murder homosexual men and women.

Both these things are directly caused by extreme religious ideologies.

Yes, Uganda is very poor and has widespread problems, but this nation is very proud of the fact that it is the most Christian country in Africa, with 84% of the population practicing (right-wing) Christians. It is undeniable that human rights are being trampled on and people are dying because of a (however distorted) Christian message in this country. To paraphrase you slightly: "you don't expect people to die over holy text".

You may well feel that their version of Christianity is wildly misguided and not true to the words of Jesus, but try telling that to the Ugandans, who I am sure feel most secure in their righteousness, and in the fact that they are carrying out God's will. Tell them that they are the ones who are misguided, and that Jesus doesn't want gay people killed on sight. See where that gets you.

As you may know homosexuality is illegal in Uganda and the government are now trying to introduce the death penalty for "for people who have previous convictions, are HIV-positive, or engage in same sex sexual acts".

A quote from the Guardian (28.1.11):

Angry scenes marred the funeral of murdered Ugandan gay activist David Kato today when the presiding pastor called on homosexuals to repent or "be punished by God".

Towards the end of an emotional ceremony to mourn Kato, who was bludgeoned to death on Wednesday, Anglican pastor Thomas Musoke launched into a homophobic tirade, shocking the dozens of gay men and women as well as foreign diplomats in attendance.

"The world has gone crazy," Musoke said. "People are turning away from the scriptures. They should turn back, they should abandon what they are doing. You cannot start admiring a fellow man."

Witnesses said that Kato's former colleagues at Sexual Minorities Uganda, where he worked as an advocacy officer, quickly shouted Musoke down.
"We have not come to fight," one woman screamed. "You are not the judge of us. As long as he's gone to God his creator, who are we to judge Kato?"

The microphone was away grabbed from Musoke, and a scuffle ensued. Police were forced to intervene, escorting the pastor away from the funeral.

The incident highlighted the deep, religiously-stoked homophobia that exists in Uganda, and which Kato's friends believe may have caused his death. He was one of few openly homosexual men in the country, and was a regarded as the "grandfather" of the gay community due to his long struggle for equal rights. His death came just three weeks after he won a court victory against a newspaper that had called for him to be hanged.

The murder attracted condemnation from around the world, but received more muted coverage in Uganda.

The funeral was held near Kato's ancestral home of Namataba, outside Kampala, and was attended by about 300 people, including family, friends, and members of the local community. A busload of gay activists arrived from the capital wearing T-shirts featuring Kato's face, or rainbows or the slogan "The struggle continues".

Three tents had been erected in a clearing, and Kato's body was displayed in open white coffin. A large crucifix lay on top. Kato's colleagues later covered it with a large rainbow flag.

Where is the moral highground?? Not where the extremist is standing.

 

[Belk]

The question should be why are muslims so provokable? Why do they commit acts of violence because someone burns a book or draws a cartoon?

I'm not sure what the answer is but clearly there is an attitude in this religion that encourages this kind of behavior.

Is it the religion or something outside of it? If it was the religion, per se, I would expect this to be more widespread then it is. I submit that it is not the religion but a movement within the religion to gain power. Much like Christianity was used as a means to power in Europe.

 

[ShaunJ72]

The question should be why are muslims so provokable? Why do they commit acts of violence because someone burns a book or draws a cartoon?

By that token, you could also ask why Christians are so provocative...

However, that would not be in any way accurate because we are actually only talking about extremist minorities in both religions. I would imagine that most moderate muslims are horrified by by being associated with beheadings, while I would also guess that most moderate Christians don't feel fullly represented by Terry Jones either.

 

[Supreme]

Ah well, that's your absolutist 'TRUTH' isn't it, while a moslem believer's 'truth' is obviously something very different from that. I fail to see how your book and your ultra-dogmatic, so-called truth is any more valid than theirs? (There is no evidence at all to suggest it is, and that sir is the TRUTH).

So you posit truth is subjective?

Hmm, not sure I'd like to get into a philosophical debate- but I do believe that truth is, for the most part, objective. But there can indeed be subjective elements to truth, ie one person may find a sunset beautiful, the other ugly- they are both telling the truth.

 

[ShaunJ72]

So you posit truth is subjective?

Hmm, not sure I'd like to get into a philosophical debate- but I do believe that truth is, for the most part, objective. But there can indeed be subjective elements to truth, ie one person may find a sunset beautiful, the other ugly- they are both telling the truth.

Hi. No. the good Dr's post which I was responding to was very heavy in the TRUTH department. I was just responding to him in slightly ironic, referential terms, and it's not a word or concept I like to use particularly.

You are right, its a big philosophical can of worms - one man's 'truth' is often another man's BS. 'Truth' is a hard one to pin down, with different people likely to hold wildly different definitions of the concept, So...yes, truth is fairly subjective IMO.

 

[DR.Martin Luther]

It was a can of worms to the Roman Governor at Jesus trial as well, but Jesus answered [Pontius Pilate], "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."
Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?"​

Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the TRUTH. Everyone who is of the TRUTH hears My voice."

Pilate said to Him, "​

​

What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, "I find no fault in Him at all.”​

Jesus is the only TRUTH that matters Shaun.​

​

 

[PHenry42]

Why do you people act like blame is a zero-sum game? Whether Terry Jones is guilty of anything has no implication on whether the rioters are guilty of anything, or vice versa.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Is it the religion or something outside of it? If it was the religion, per se, I would expect this to be more widespread then it is. I submit that it is not the religion but a movement within the religion to gain power. Much like Christianity was used as a means to power in Europe.

Unfortunately it does seem that the problem is more widespread, with problems in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia which are considered quite moderate.

 

[PHenry42]

I'll agree with you here. One cannot deny that the muslims are very strident in their beliefs, to the point where some would blow himself up for their faith. One could ask why more christians aren't this way.

Perhaps because Christian countries haven't been the kicking dogs of the world for the last 200 or so years? Reaction follows action, and if you're already brooding over grievances and convinced that the infidels are out to get you, actions that would otherwise be ignored as insignificant easily get perceived as deliberate attacks.

 

[PHenry42]

This wasn't really about a man burning a Quran. They have no love and are full of hatred and are ever ready to act on that rage. If there wasn't a guy burning a Quran to give them their needed justification, they would have invented a reason. There's nothing holy or sinless about what they're doing.

Lord, have mercy!

If the Quran burning had no part in causing it, how come that it happened right after the burning in question, rather than at any other time? Do you believe in coincidences?

 

[ShaunJ72]

Jesus is the only TRUTH that matters Shaun.

​

Well, Doctor, Jesus is clearly the only TRUTH that matters to you, and I respect your beliefs, but I don't agree in any way, and nor would billions of other humans.

Let's agree to disagree.