Messianic Judaism and communion

[janwoG]

I saw several posts of Yedida, that all Messianic Congregations she visited did not practice communion. I run into the following study, that majority of Messianic congregations practice communion. I would like to ask to that forum what would be the likely situation regarding that topic.
I cite:
Messianism and communion
Originally Posted by JAndrews
(I'm a Gentile. Posting out of curiosity, not criticism.)
“In addition,the practice of communion, partaking of the bread and wine ofthe Messiah’s Seder, is understood really to convey the meaning ofHis death for us which actually renews His life in us. Most Messianic Jewish leaders believe in a real efficacious power in the communion,though the explanation of exactly how or why this is the case varies. Most Messianic Jewish congregations worldwide celebrate the communion monthly, but a significant minority does sovweekly. Some celebrate it on the Sabbath after the new moon. A very small number reserve this only for the Passover season. The meaning of the supper is definitely rooted in Passover meanings as was the original context.”
http://www.tjcii.org/userfiles/Image/messianic-jewish-movement-an-inttroduction-Eng.pdf
I find it an interesting topic, because the last supper is the ceremonial commandment by Yeshua given to his followers, without excluding former ceremonial commandments.

 

[visionary]

"communion" in the post you have used probably was J. Andrews efforts to explain in a secular way, that which is done in a Judaism style....

I went to the link you provided and it indicates that the authors were.. Daniel Juster and Peter Hocken. If this is the same man....

Hocken was ordained a priest in the Roman Catholic Church in 1964. He was ordained for the Diocese of Northampton. He lectured in moral theology at Oscott College, Birmingham, England (1968 - 1976). He obtained permission to leave the country in order to join the Mother of God Community, Washington where he was an active member between 1976 and 1996. He regularly contributed to the community's devotional magazine, "The Word Among Us". In 1984 he received his PhD for his research on the history of charismatic renewal from the University of Birmingham, England. He returned to England in 1997, becoming Chaplain to the Bishop of Northampton (1997 – 2001). In 2001 he received the title "Monsignor" at the request of Bishop Patrick Leo McCartie. Hocken currently lives in Vienna, Austria.

Hocken has been active in the charismatic movement since 1971 and has served as Executive Secretary of the Society for Pentecostal Studies (1988 – 1997).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Hocken

This could easily explain his way of presenting the siddur.. interchanging "communion" for "siddur"

 

[yedida]

I saw several posts of Yedida, that all Messianic Congregations she visited did not practice communion. I run into the following study, that majority of Messianic congregations practice communion. I would like to ask to that forum what would be the likely situation regarding that topic.
I cite:
Messianism and communion
Originally Posted by JAndrews
(I'm a Gentile. Posting out of curiosity, not criticism.)
“In addition,the practice of communion, partaking of the bread and wine ofthe Messiah’s Seder, is understood really to convey the meaning ofHis death for us which actually renews His life in us. Most Messianic Jewish leaders believe in a real efficacious power in the communion,though the explanation of exactly how or why this is the case varies. Most Messianic Jewish congregations worldwide celebrate the communion monthly, but a significant minority does sovweekly. Some celebrate it on the Sabbath after the new moon. A very small number reserve this only for the Passover season. The meaning of the supper is definitely rooted in Passover meanings as was the original context.”
http://www.tjcii.org/userfiles/Image/messianic-jewish-movement-an-inttroduction-Eng.pdf
I find it an interesting topic, because the last supper is the ceremonial commandment by Yeshua given to his followers, without excluding former ceremonial commandments.

I don't mind being called out but it would be nice if you managed to follow the qualifications. I made a distinct effort in noting that the communion is often seen as the Cup of Redemption of the Passover seder, not as some new observance.
I also stated that there is nothing inherently wrong in observing Communion as something apart from the Seder, it just doesn't seem to be that common according to my limited experience.
Shabbat Shalom

 

[visionary]

Communion as gentiles churches keep it is not the same as in meaning nor in presentation as the siddur.

 

[BatZion]

My congregation does not practice communion. I believe what is called communion is in fact the seder. Just my opinion.

 

[GuardianShua]

The words used in communion are parabolic. However, I did find an error in the King James version.

John 19:36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

 

[yedida]

The words used in communion are parabolic. However, I did find an error in the King James version.

John 19:36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Sounds to me like just another of Paul's many bloopers!!

 

[SGM4HIM]

I don't see the contradiction.

The bread was broken before consuming so as not to lodge in one's throat .

Why blame Paul? Why not John or someone with higher authority?

 

[yedida]

I don't see the contradiction.

The bread was broken before consuming so as not to lodge in one's throat .

Why blame Paul? Why not John or someone with higher authority?

Well....it was in Paul's letter?

 

[GuardianShua]

Well....it was in Paul's letter?

According to the Holman Bible, some text have "broken" and other do not. That means that it is another Gnostic corruption of text.

 

[yedida]

According to the Holman Bible, some text have "broken" and other do not. That means that it is another Gnostic corruption of text.

It would be helpful to know just exactly when the tradition of the Afikomen became a part of the Seder. That would very likely answer the question of the brokeness. I believe the Jews saw the Afikomen as the Levites, Messianics see it as Messiah, hidden and then broken. (That is, if the tradition is from before Messiah, then it's probably not a gnostic corruption.)

 

[Lulav]

Here's some info for those searching.

 

[yedida]

Here's some info for those searching.

Thanks Lulav, I read that one and I skimmed over a few other articles but could not fix a time.
Was it during the Second Temple during Yeshua's lifetime (could He have broken the Afikomen and passed it around?) or after His ascension?
It would be mighty telling if it was before Yeshua was even born....Sometime between the First and Second Temple era is a long period of time....

 

[GuardianShua]

It would be helpful to know just exactly when the tradition of the Afikomen became a part of the Seder. That would very likely answer the question of the brokeness. I believe the Jews saw the Afikomen as the Levites, Messianics see it as Messiah, hidden and then broken. (That is, if the tradition is from before Messiah, then it's probably not a gnostic corruption.)

The word "broken" was most likely added during the fourth century. In John he tells the Jews, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." And when the Jews on that occasion complained that they did not understand what he meant, he added for their better understanding, that we should not think his body was to be actually eaten. He closed with these explanatory expressions: "The flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life." Because The Lords Supper took place before the feast it would have nothing to do with the Afikomen.

LAST SUPPER
There are two reliefs which show Mithras celebrating a banquet. The first relief shows Mithras and Helios dining together after the sacrifice of the bull.
The other depicts Mithras dining with the sun before ascending into paradise with the other gods.
For some reason the tale becomes distorted with Mithras saying to his disciples, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." Come to find out this quote was added centuries later during the middle ages and is not even attributed to Mithras originally.

The Catholics were always looking for ways to show a relationship between Christianity and Paganism, that was in order to unite the people under one universal religion.

 

[GuardianShua]

The Lord's Supper
Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of Yahwah is not about meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

In history the fourth Lateran Council decreed that any believer should communicate at least once a year, at Easter. Afterwards it was determined that this Sacrament should be received three times in the year. At Easter, {Whitsuntide, ("Pentecost Sunday")} and Christmas. Whitsun (Also Whitsunday or Whit Sunday (from conflation of Whitson, "white Sunday," with wit, "understanding"; -tide, "season"; alternate, obsolete spelling, Qhythsontyd) is a festival which originated from the pagan celebration of Summer's Day, the beginning of the Summer half-year, in Europe. In France and England it took on some characteristics of Beltane. Whitsun was later incorporated into Pentecost in the Christian calendar which is the seventh Sunday after Easter and commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples of Christ. (Acts chapter 2).

 

[yedida]

The word "broken" was most likely added during the fourth century. In John he tells the Jews, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." And when the Jews on that occasion complained that they did not understand what he meant, he added for their better understanding, that we should not think his body was to be actually eaten. He closed with these explanatory expressions: "The flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life." Because The Lords Supper took place before the feast it would have nothing to do with the Afikomen.

LAST SUPPER
There are two reliefs which show Mithras celebrating a banquet. The first relief shows Mithras and Helios dining together after the sacrifice of the bull.
The other depicts Mithras dining with the sun before ascending into paradise with the other gods.
For some reason the tale becomes distorted with Mithras saying to his disciples, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." Come to find out this quote was added centuries later during the middle ages and is not even attributed to Mithras originally.

The Catholics were always looking for ways to show a relationship between Christianity and Paganism, that was in order to unite the people under one universal religion.

I'm in a phase right now where I'm questioning all kinds of things I never questioned before. Not sure I like being where I'm at....
You know, it didn't even take 70 years for the simple gospel to get all bogged down in rules and regulations that Yeshua never spoke of....aaarrrgggghhhh!!!!!

 

[GuardianShua]

I'm in a phase right now where I'm questioning all kinds of things I never questioned before. Not sure I like being where I'm at....
You know, it didn't even take 70 years for the simple gospel to get all bogged down in rules and regulations that Yeshua never spoke of....aaarrrgggghhhh!!!!!

It is wise for a person to question what they believe. God spoke through the prophet Daniel saying that His word would be tampered with.

Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the LORD; it took away the daily sacrifice from the LORD, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the LORD’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Well....it was in Paul's letter?

broken bones were not mentioned.

A broken body may be one that received severe beating,whipping and nail pierce hands and feet as well a a side that was speared by a soldier.

 

[visionary]

Yep.. broken in spirit... "why have you forsaken me?" broken in body ...."gave up his spirit"

 

[anisavta]

I'm in a phase right now where I'm questioning all kinds of things I never questioned before. Not sure I like being where I'm at....
You know, it didn't even take 70 years for the simple gospel to get all bogged down in rules and regulations that Yeshua never spoke of....aaarrrgggghhhh!!!!!

I know exactly what you're talking about.