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Bible-Creation-Evolution

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Tiberius

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If for evolution, Adam would be mating with Chimps since there was no female Human at the time before Eve.;)

Come now, let us reason...

If you think that evolution even suggests this, then you are grossly misinformed about how evolution works.
 
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Tiberius

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With allegorists, you have to explain that when the newspaper says:

  • sunrise @ 6:53 a.m.
  • sunset @ 7:49 p.m.
... the publishers aren't pushing geocentrism.

The trouble is that when the Bible does it, you insist that it is completely literal. if you were to do the same thing With the newspaper, you'd be telling us, "The newspaper clearly states that the sun is rising. It does not state that the Earth's rotation merely makes it appear that the sun is rising. So therefore, the sun actually does go around the earth!"
 
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AV1611VET

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I replied in THIS post to say that if we consider that God used evolution by means of natural selection as a tool to get the job done, there is still no contradiction. Just as we say that a man cuts a piece of wood when he really used a saw to cut it, we can say that God created all the plants when he was using evolution as a tool to create them.
Okay if I say something here?
Thank you.

I like this analogy of a man saying he is cutting wood, but doesn't say what he is using to cut the wood.

It is assumed, of course, that he used a saw, as would analyzing the cut ends should attest to this fact.

HOWEVER:

God says plainly that He spoke, and the universe came into existence.

The man cutting wood said he was going to cut wood, but he didn't say with what.

God didn't do it that way, though.

God didn't say He was going to make the universe; He spoke and the universe came into existence as an act of obedience to His command.

Put another way: your example, Tiberius, has a man making a declarative statement; whereas Genesis 1 has God making a series of imperative statements, called divine fiats.

IN ADDITION:

The order of events, coupled with the statement in Exodus ...

Exodus 20:11a For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:

... clearly rule out evolution.
 
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1611AV

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If you think that evolution even suggests this, then you are grossly misinformed about how evolution works.

What would Adam have mated with had not God made Eve of Adams rib?

Keep in mind Adam lived less than 1000 years.

BTW, evolution does not work.
 
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AV1611VET

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The trouble is that when the Bible does it, you insist that it is completely literal.
No, I don't:
If a literal rendering teaches geocentrism, then what would a mature reader do?

  1. Interpret it literally and assume it was a mistake?
  2. Interpret it figuratively, using what is called the "language of the observer," and assume it was not a mistake?
Depending on how you answer the above, tells me your level of maturity.

Even I, an ultraliteralist, wouldn't make that mistake.
 
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AV1611VET

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What would Adam have mated with had not God made Eve of Adams rib?
Jungle Jane, of course -- the next best thing.

One copy-error away from being fully human.

Adam and Jane made Eve -- Adam's daughter and wife.

(Sickening, isn't it?)
 
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1611AV

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Jungle Jane, of course -- the next best thing.

One copy-error away from being fully human.

Adam and Jane made Eve -- Adam's daughter and wife.

(Sickening, isn't it?)

Yes it is sickening! It is also a stumbling block for any evolutionist that claims to be a Bible Believing Christian.

God is against Man laying with beast.

Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
 
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Tiberius

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Thank you.

I like this analogy of a man saying he is cutting wood, but doesn't say what he is using to cut the wood.

It is assumed, of course, that he used a saw, as would analyzing the cut ends should attest to this fact.

That can be easily changed.

HOWEVER:

God says plainly that He spoke, and the universe came into existence.

The man cutting wood said he was going to cut wood, but he didn't say with what.

God didn't do it that way, though.

God didn't say He was going to make the universe; He spoke and the universe came into existence as an act of obedience to His command.

Can you show me the passage where it says that God spoke the plants into existence. Because I can quote you a passage where it says that God used the Earth as a tool to create plants.

Put another way: your example, Tiberius, has a man making a declarative statement; whereas Genesis 1 has God making a series of imperative statements, called divine fiats.

You are trying to bog this down in minutiae.

IN ADDITION:

The order of events, coupled with the statement in Exodus ...

Exodus 20:11a For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:

... clearly rule out evolution.

It does not clearly rule out evolution. Show me where it says that God never used any tools while creating the universe.

What would Adam have mated with had not God made Eve of Adams rib?

Keep in mind Adam lived less than 1000 years.

BTW, evolution does not work.

Do not think that evolution states that an individual of one species will give birth to an individual of a different species. The change from one species to the next is very slow (from our point of view) and takes place over many generations.

For example, if a modern Human went back in time five thousand years, they would find species that they would say are identical to them.

If one of these 5 thousand year old people went back another 5000 years, then they would likewise claim that the people of 10,000 years ago were the same species as the people of 5000 years ago.

And if a person of 10,000 years ago went back to 15,000 years ago, they would also claim that their two species were the same.

You could keep going back like this for millions of years, and each individual would claim that they are the same species as the species that lived 5000 years before them. One continuous sequence. This is becayuse the changes made by evolution operate on much greater time scales than 5000 years. And if you go back a million years, you would say that the species are very different, even though you do not see any appreciable change when you look at it in 5000 year intervals.

So evolution tells us that there was no "first" human, it's just that the species we evolved from became more and more human like until they actually were humans.

No, I don't:

Then why do you believe that unicorns once existed? And that there are species of insects with only 4 legs? And that there was some kind of "fowled bat"? Why do you not see these parts of the Bible as metaphorical?
 
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AV1611VET

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Speaking of minutiae:
Can you show me the passage where it says that God spoke the plants into existence.
No -- that part was done ex materia, not ex nihilo.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


Incidentally, how much time expired from the divine fiat in Genesis 1:11, to the completion of the command -- in your opinion?
 
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1611AV

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Do not think that evolution states that an individual of one species will give birth to an individual of a different species. The change from one species to the next is very slow (from our point of view) and takes place over many generations.

For example, if a modern Human went back in time five thousand years, they would find species that they would say are identical to them.

If one of these 5 thousand year old people went back another 5000 years, then they would likewise claim that the people of 10,000 years ago were the same species as the people of 5000 years ago.

And if a person of 10,000 years ago went back to 15,000 years ago, they would also claim that their two species were the same.

You could keep going back like this for millions of years, and each individual would claim that they are the same species as the species that lived 5000 years before them. One continuous sequence. This is becayuse the changes made by evolution operate on much greater time scales than 5000 years. And if you go back a million years, you would say that the species are very different, even though you do not see any appreciable change when you look at it in 5000 year intervals.

So evolution tells us that there was no "first" human, it's just that the species we evolved from became more and more human like until they actually were humans.

And did these sub humans 10000 years before Adam die or were they still alive when Adam was created or as you would say evolved?
 
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Tiberius

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You gotta be kidding, right?

You're asking if an individual is still alive ten thousand years after it was born?

You asked about evolution. I am answering you. Do not think I am explaining this from a biblical perspective, because I am not. I gave you a Biblical justification for God using evolution as a tool, which is what you asked for. What I am discussing now has nothing to do with that.
 
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Tiberius

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Speaking of minutiae:

No -- that part was done ex materia, not ex nihilo.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

right. So God worked with stuff that was already there.

Now, let me ask you this...

Is it possible that God used a tool to get the job done?

Incidentally, how much time expired from the divine fiat in Genesis 1:11, to the completion of the command -- in your opinion?

In my opinion, the whole thing is myth anyway.

You do see the little atheist symbol up next to my name, doncha?
 
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AV1611VET

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Is it possible that God used a tool to get the job done?
Ya -- His voice.

Remember the story of the Valley of Dry Bones, you probably were told in Sunday school?
In my opinion, the whole thing is myth anyway.
So? that means you have no opinion? or you don't want to opine?

What's your opinion of the boy who cried wolf?
You do see the little atheist symbol up next to my name, doncha?
Yes, I do -- is that supposed to mean you can't answer my question with an opinion?

Of course, I can understand too; beings as I get called out for expressing mine.

I certainly wouldn't want you to look bad.
 
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Tiberius

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Ya -- His voice.

If God used his voice as a tool to create plants, let me ask you...

Where in the Bible does it say that? because I have a passage from the Bible that says quite clearly that God used the ground to bring forth the plants!

Remember the story of the Valley of Dry Bones, you probably were told in Sunday school?

Unfortunately it has been many many years since I was in Sunday School. perhaps you could refresh my memory?

So? that means you have no opinion? or you don't want to opine?

it means that in my opinion it never happened, so the question is meaningless.

What's your opinion of the boy who cried wolf?

That it is a fiction.

Yes, I do -- is that supposed to mean you can't answer my question with an opinion?

Of course, I can understand too; beings as I get called out for expressing mine.

I certainly wouldn't want you to look bad.

First of all, I DID give my opinion. I said, "In my opinion, the whole thing is myth anyway." See? You asked foir my opinion and I gave it.

And since, in my opinion the whole thing never happened, asking how many days between two things that never happened is meaningless. It's like if I asked you, "In your opinion, how long was there between the time Amelia earhart walked on the moon and the time the moon crashed into Jupiter?"
 
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Mr Dave

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faith gardian and Mr. Dave
Do either of you believe the book of Jonah, and believe it to be a literal account?

Yes I believe the book of Jonah. If by literal account you mean did it happen historically, I don't know. There are arguments to suggest it did/could have. It could have also been like the 'Last King of Scotland' analogy whereby it is an embellished account within a historical framework. I don't know for certain though.


Do you believe the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights?

That Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly?

That the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land and Jonah lived after this?


I know this has nothing to do with evolution but Im just curious in your interpretation. 3 honest questions await 3 honest answers, thanks.


Within the story yes to all of these.
Although worth bearing in mind that this isn't the only fish story in the Bible, read Tobit 6:3, it's not the same, but still makes a good read.
 
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TheReasoner

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When I get to Heaven, if my fault is taking God at his Word, then I think Im OK. Amen?

But you're not when it comes to creationism. You're taking YOURSELF at your word. After all IF you believe God spoke this universe into being, AND you disbelieve what the universe is saying about itself then you are ipso facto disbelieving God's word.

All because you insist your (shaky) interpretation is infallible.


How is that taking God at His word?
 
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