Women In Authority – Teaching Mixed Assemblies in Church

Crankitup

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The fact is God raised this women up gave her a prophetic gift, gave her a ministry where people trusted her wisdom and came to her to judge their disputes, raised her into the position of judge of Israel and made her the leader of the whole nation. Not only did God give a woman the role of leadership of his people, God clearly didn't see a problem with a woman leading.

After the death of Moses and Joshua the people of Israel had come under oppression from the king of Canaan and his general Sisera. The key passage is Judges 4:6-9.

6 She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him, “Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you, ‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. 7 And I will draw out Sisera, the general of Jabin’s army, to meet you by the river Kishon with his chariots and his troops, and I will give him into your hand’?” 8 Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, I will go, but if you will not go with me, I will not go.” 9 “Very well,” Deborah said, “I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will hand Sisera over to a woman.”

God had commanded Barak but he vacillated. It was left to a woman to provoke him into action and another woman (Jael) to dispose of Sisera. Further, Deborah didn't summon Israel into battle against the Canaanites, she prodded Barak into doing so, encouraging him to rise up, be a man and lead. When he vacillated and said he wouldn't go without her, her words, whilst pehaps not being quite a rebuke, certainly suggest he should have 'grabbed his nuts' and gone and led without relying on her.

The other key point here is Deborah wasn't a priest. She didn't teach scripture to God's people which is what Paul is forbidding in I Tim 2. She ruled in disputes, sorting out controversies etc. She did so in private under a palm tree. She wasn't sitting on a throne or in a municipal office.

She refused to lead the people militarily, and is the only judge in the book of Judges with no military function.

What we have instead is male prophets and judges being referred to as so and so, son of so and so. Othniel the son of Kenaz, Ehud the son of Gera, Shamgar the son of Anath. Why say who the father was? So the readers would know what Othniel or what Ehud they were talking about. Here in Wales if you talk about how terrible Maggie was people know exactly who you are talking about but if you are writing a history book you would call her by her husband’s name Thatcher. Same with Golda Meir and Indira Gandhi. For better or worse (hah!) women are usually known by their husband’s names, just a George W Bush has his father's name. Other than that, the husband plays no part in the story.
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I'll try to be succinct since I think you already know which straws you clutched at.

(1) This was no genealogy

(2) The Bible introduces us to a multitude of women in the bible without reference to their husband. The fact that Lapidoth plays no part in the story is irrelevant. The rhetorical question I raised earlier still stands. She is introduced to us as wife of Lapidoth. How many male prophets were referred to as 'husband of X'? Zip.

Getting back to the passage in I Tim 2 that my original post referred to, I repeat - something inherent in the makeup or nature of women is different from men. Hardly surprising considering Eve was designed to be a helper to Adam, not his leader. On the one hand we are all equal in Christ, but on the other, the NT refers to women as 'weaker vessels'. Becoming someone who preaches, teaches & shepherds the flock is akin to entering a spiritual battleground. Not a place to send weaker vessels.

Scripture is quite clear in ruling out women from certain positions within the church, just as it is equally clear about ruling out many MEN from those same positions.

It's plainly obvious what Paul is saying, except to those who for one reason or another don't LIKE what he's saying and seek to dismiss it. He's allowing something & prohibiting something else. Basically, let them learn, but don't let them teach.
 
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After the death of Moses and Joshua the people of Israel had come under oppression from the king of Canaan and his general Sisera. The key passage is Judges 4:6-9.

6 She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him, “Has not the Lord, the God of Israel, commanded you, ‘Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. 7 And I will draw out Sisera, the general of Jabin’s army, to meet you by the river Kishon with his chariots and his troops, and I will give him into your hand’?” 8 Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, I will go, but if you will not go with me, I will not go.” 9 “Very well,” Deborah said, “I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will hand Sisera over to a woman.”

God had commanded Barak but he vacillated. It was left to a woman to provoke him into action and another woman (Jael) to dispose of Sisera. Further, Deborah didn't summon Israel into battle against the Canaanites, she prodded Barak into doing so, encouraging him to rise up, be a man and lead. When he vacillated and said he wouldn't go without her, her words, whilst pehaps not being quite a rebuke, certainly suggest he should have 'grabbed his nuts' and gone and led without relying on her.
The question is whether Deborah is referring to a previous occasion when she said 'Has not the Lord commanded?' or if this is a Hebrew idiom emphasising that the Lord has commanded him? We find the same construction in 1Sam 10:1 Then Samuel took a flask of oil and poured it on his head and kissed him and said, "Has not the LORD anointed you to be prince over his people Israel? 1Chron 22:18 "Is not the LORD your God with you? Ezek 26:15 Will not the coastlands shake at the sound of your fall?

There is no actual mention of this supposed previous command, of Barak vacillating the first time, or any rebuke for his previous disobedience other than what is being read into Deborah's statement.

The other key point here is Deborah wasn't a priest. She didn't teach scripture to God's people which is what Paul is forbidding in I Tim 2. She ruled in disputes, sorting out controversies etc. She did so in private under a palm tree. She wasn't sitting on a throne or in a municipal office.
The Judges God raise up didn't have throne or municipal offices, if I recall correctly, Samuel wasn't too keen on the throne bit himself, yet he lead Israel. 1Tim 2 does not actually mention teaching scripture, though that seems to be what Priscilla taught Apollos Acts 18:26 when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
People think Paul was forbidding women to have authority over men, yet that is exactly what Deborah had.

Priest is a whole other can of worms with people claiming it is unscriptural for women to hold an office the NT says nothing about. There is no NT priesthood other than the high priesthood of Christ and the priesthood of all believers 1Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession.

She refused to lead the people militarily, and is the only judge in the book of Judges with no military function.
Remember the Centurion's explanation of authority? Matt 8:9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes, and to another, 'Come,' and he comes, and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." Deborah said come and Barak came, she said go and do, Barak quibbled, then went and did. Doesn't matter how many things you can think of she didn't do; didn't offer sacrifices, didn't command an army, didn't wear trousers. The point is what she did do, she led Israel and had authority over the man who commanded its armies. And this is authority God gave her, a woman.

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I'll try to be succinct since I think you already know which straws you clutched at.

(1) This was no genealogy

(2) The Bible introduces us to a multitude of women in the bible without reference to their husband... The rhetorical question I raised earlier still stands. She is introduced to us as wife of Lapidoth. How many male prophets were referred to as 'husband of X'? Zip.
How is calling Deborah wife of X any different from calling the male judges son of Y? That is how men and women were know back then. Is calling Ehud the son of Gera supposed to say he was a good little boy who did what his father said? Or is it because Ehud ben Gera was how he was known? It isn't about establishing a genealogy, genealogies tend to be a bit longer, it is how people were known back then. It is odd. It seems the only way you would accept Deborah as a woman leader is if she adopted the modern feminist practice of keeping her maiden name.

...The fact that Lapidoth plays no part in the story is irrelevant...
It is only relevant if you are trying to read some significance into someone who plays no part.

Getting back to the passage in I Tim 2 that my original post referred to, I repeat - something inherent in the makeup or nature of women is different from men.
Vive la différence :)

Hardly surprising considering Eve was designed to be a helper to Adam, not his leader.
It is easy to think of 'help' as a domestic servant "it is hard to get good help these days". Yet outside this chapter of Genesis, 18 of the 20 times this word occurs refers to God as our help. Help did not mean inferior or subservient. Adam ruling over her only comes in with the fall, and that is specifically with her own husband. A woman pastor would have to be able to distinguish between her leadership in the church and her domestic relationship with her husband, but other than that I don't see any issue in women's leadership from the story of Adam and Eve.

On the one hand we are all equal in Christ, but on the other, the NT refers to women as 'weaker vessels'. Becoming someone who preaches, teaches & shepherds the flock is akin to entering a spiritual battleground. Not a place to send weaker vessels.
Some of the toughest prayer warriors I know are women. Besides, talking about weaker 'vessels' seems to be looking at physical strength, (we have this treasure in earth vessels). Looking into this, I think Peter might be giving some very specific advice to husbands here that goes over our head today. If you look at the word dwell sunoikeo, 'living together', in the Septuagint, it is used for sexual relationships. Peter is telling husband to be physically gentle with their wives in bed and treat them the respect due to fellow child of God.

It is great to dig deep into the Word :)

Scripture is quite clear in ruling out women from certain positions within the church, just as it is equally clear about ruling out many MEN from those same positions.
Does husband of one wife mean only men can be overseers? Or is Paul say male overseers must be monogamous and assuming we would realise women overseers should be monogamous too. He says deacons should be the husband of one wife too, but that didn't stop Priscilla being a deacon.

It's plainly obvious what Paul is saying, except to those who for one reason or another don't LIKE what he's saying and seek to dismiss it. He's allowing something & prohibiting something else. Basically, let them learn, but don't let them teach.
Who were they not to teach and what were they not to teach them? Why did Paul switch from the plural 1Tim 2:8 men should pray, lifting holy hands... 9 women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, to the singular in verse 11 and 12? If Paul wanted to forbid women to teach men in the church, the plural would have been just as effective. When you switch to the singular it suggests you are talking about very specific situation where a woman is teaching a man one on one. You are either talking about a rather unwise situation where a man and woman who aren't married are getting together in a cozy teacher pupil relationship. Or we are talking about a woman teaching her husband about Christianity, and turning their roles in marriage upside down.

Again the big problem in understanding this verse is the word authentein 'usurp authority' which has a range of pretty unpleasant meanings, including murder, masters sexually exploiting slaves, or wives treating their husbands as housemaids. Is this the context Paul was talking about with a woman teaching a man? That women were not just teaching their husbands but taking on on an almost dominatrix role in their marriage? Then you have the idea of authentein meaning women saw themselves as the source of men which would explain why Paul went back to Adam and Eve. We do not know what Paul meant by authentein because he does not use the word anywhere else, yet it makes more sense that Paul was dealing with a problem in the context women involved in authentein. It doesn't make sense to think he was talking about the women taking up teach roles in church, when he is still discussing how the women can learn about Christianity.

Looking forward to your latest graphic expressing bemused incredulity :)
 
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Crankitup

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The question is whether Deborah is referring to a previous occasion when she said 'Has not the Lord commanded?' or if this is a Hebrew idiom emphasising that the Lord has commanded him?

I agree. It's not vital to the argument either way so I won't try and change your perspective on it. It would be a waste of time.
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1Tim 2 does not actually mention teaching scripture ...

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That's like saying "When God said in Exodus 'Thou shall not steal' He didn't say anything about stealing someone's shoes."

Assyrian;56795491... Priscilla taught Apollos Acts 18:26 [COLOR="#000080" said:
when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately[/COLOR].

Nothing Priscilla was doing was in any way contrary to Paul's admonition in 1 Tim 2:11-14. Priscilla (who would have been in submission to her husband) was working as a team with her husband, privately. She wasn't standing up in a public setting teaching a group of men. Apollos only knew the baptism of John. They filled in the blanks for him on that score. This was a private conversation, similar to a home Bible study.

It is only relevant if you are trying to read some significance into someone who plays no part.

It was merely an aside where I pointed out the mention of Deborah as 'husband of' in contrast with the mention of the male prophets and judges. OTOH if you feel that the mentioning of Lapidoth in the Bible is totally insignificant are you saying that God should not have included it in scripture?


Some of the toughest prayer warriors I know are women. Besides, talking about weaker 'vessels' seems to be looking at physical strength, (we have this treasure in earth vessels). Looking into this, I think Peter might be giving some very specific advice to husbands here that goes over our head today. If you look at the word dwell sunoikeo, 'living together', in the Septuagint, it is used for sexual relationships. Peter is telling husband to be physically gentle with their wives in bed and treat them the respect due to fellow child of God.

It is great to dig deep into the Word :)

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'Weaker vessels' is used as a metaphor in I Peter 3:7. A few verses before (I Peter 3:4) he talks about a woman's beauty coming from her heart rather than outward adornment and about her maintaining a meek and quiet spirit, precious in the sight of God. That's something which can be attained by women much easier than men IMO. Women are more vulnerable to abuse and mistreatment, whether it be physical or psychological and should be revered and treated carefully like your finest china.

Does husband of one wife mean only men can be overseers? Or is Paul say male overseers must be monogamous and assuming we would realise women overseers should be monogamous too.

Would you have asked these questions of Paul had you been present in one of his meetings? "Hey Paul, I know you told Timothy that women can't .... but what about ... and what about ..." and "Hey Paul is your prohibition against women teaching or usurping authority from men part of your cultural conditioning, or in response to a context peculiar to Ephesus, or a command from God? Maybe you could have changed the course of history.

Who were they not to teach and what were they not to teach them? Why did Paul switch from the plural 1Tim 2:8 men should pray, lifting holy hands... 9 women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, to the singular in verse 11 and 12? If Paul wanted to forbid women to teach men in the church, the plural would have been just as effective. When you switch to the singular it suggests ...

Why don't you read a few verses on and contemplate why Paul stayed in the singular in I Tim 3:1? I think you'll then see why your suggestions about the significance of changing from plural to singular are reading something into the text that isn't there.


Again the big problem in understanding this verse is the word authentein 'usurp authority' which has a range of pretty unpleasant meanings, including murder, masters sexually exploiting slaves, or wives treating their husbands as housemaids. Is this the context Paul was talking about with a woman teaching a man? That women were not just teaching their husbands but taking on on an almost dominatrix role in their marriage?

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Looking forward to your latest graphic expressing bemused incredulity :)

ORLY.jpg
 
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I agree. It's not vital to the argument either way so I won't try and change your perspective on it. It would be a waste of time.
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And cruel to dead horses...

1Tim 2 does not actually mention teaching scripture ...
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That's like saying "When God said in Exodus 'Thou shall not steal' He didn't say anything about stealing someone's shoes."

Nothing Priscilla was doing was in any way contrary to Paul's admonition in 1 Tim 2:11-14. Priscilla (who would have been in submission to her husband) was working as a team with her husband, privately. She wasn't standing up in a public setting teaching a group of men. Apollos only knew the baptism of John. They filled in the blanks for him on that score. This was a private conversation, similar to a home Bible study.
Neither does Paul say 'I do not permit women to teach scripture - unless of course her husband is there and it isn't in a church building'. If you want to say 'thou shalt not steal' includes stealing shoes, you can't then go and add your own get out clauses '... unless it is from Walmart or they are just slippers.

Speaking as a recovered legalist, it is too easy to tie yourself up with verses taken way beyond the context they were meant in. Of course behind counsel give in in specific situations are scriptural principles that should guide our live today, but they are found by trying to understand the reasons these things were said rather than a rigid and absolute literalism. We think we are defending the integrity of God's word by scrupulously taking an instruction in the widest sense possible. The Pharisees 'built a fence around the Torah', expanding all the laws to ensure no possible infringement of God's commands, but all they ended up with was bondage.

Paul cannot have meant I do not permit any woman to teach any man anything, because God had Priscilla teach Apollos. He cannot have meant I do not permit any woman to have any authority over any man, because God gave Deborah authority over Barak and over all Israel.

It was merely an aside where I pointed out the mention of Deborah as 'husband of' in contrast with the mention of the male prophets and judges. OTOH if you feel that the mentioning of Lapidoth in the Bible is totally insignificant are you saying that God should not have included it in scripture?
I thought I showed you that calling Deborah the wife of Lapidoth was as significant as calling Ehud, the son of Gera.

Sure it's great craic altogether.

'Weaker vessels' is used as a metaphor in I Peter 3:7. A few verses before (I Peter 3:4) he talks about a woman's beauty coming from her heart rather than outward adornment and about her maintaining a meek and quiet spirit, precious in the sight of God. That's something which can be attained by women much easier than men IMO. Women are more vulnerable to abuse and mistreatment, whether it be physical or psychological and should be revered and treated carefully like your finest china.
Have you come across Peter's mother in law? Matt 8:14 Jesus went to the home of Peter, where he found that Peter's mother-in-law was sick in bed with fever. 15 He took her by the hand, and the fever left her. Sick in bed with a soaring temperature, and Jesus heals her. So far nothing out of the usual there, with Jesus around anyway. But what does the mother in law do? I haven't come across anyone else Jesus healed in the gospels who reacted this way.15... Then she got up and served Jesus a meal.
She was one tough Jewish mother. Peter's wife was just as resilient and went with him on all his travels 1Cor 9:5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Of course women are vulnerable to abuse from men who are physically stronger than them, but the verse does not sound like Peter is asking the men to stop beating their wives. If you want to look at the verses where 'dwelling with' is used in the Septuagint you will get an idea how the word was used back then. Gen 20:3, Deut 22:13, Deut 24:1, Deut 25:5, Judges 14:20, Isaiah 62:5 Even if Peter was talking about physical or psychological abuse, it say nothing about women being spiritually weaker or unfit for church leadership.

Would you have asked these questions of Paul had you been present in one of his meetings? "Hey Paul, I know you told Timothy that women can't .... but what about ... and what about ..." and "Hey Paul is your prohibition against women teaching or usurping authority from men part of your cultural conditioning, or in response to a context peculiar to Ephesus, or a command from God? Maybe you could have changed the course of history.
I think we could have avoided a awful lot of problems throughout church history if asked Jesus, what exactly did you mean by you are Peter and upon this rock? And when you say 'this is my body'..? Of course Paul had plenty of people misunderstanding him even when he was alive. Even Peter though some of the stuff he wrote was difficult to understand. Even if we got Paul to explain exactly what he meant I am sure we would probably still be confused. Think of how much time he spent explaining grace and how it is not an excuse for license.

Which raises the question that maybe the simplistic approach misunderstands something a lot more complex. Especially when he did not say usurp authority from men. Clearly the passage applies anytime a woman who is still only learning about the faith tried to authentein her husband... if only we could figure out what Paul meant by authentein. But hey in the meantime lets ban women from doing anything other than serving tea and coffee ;)

Why don't you read a few verses on and contemplate why Paul stayed in the singular in I Tim 3:1? I think you'll then see why your suggestions about the significance of changing from plural to singular are reading something into the text that isn't there.
Yes a very interesting verse there 1Tim 3:1 The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Paul didn't actually say if any man desires the office of a bishop, he said 'if anyone' or 'whoever'. Why do you think that was?

[IMG ]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/neilcooper/Insults%20and%20Compliments/415WMA435KL_AA240_.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG ]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/neilcooper/Insults%20and%20Compliments/ORLY.jpg[/IMG]
Wow you have your insults organised on your own website? ^_^
 
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Crankitup

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Neither does Paul say 'I do not permit women to teach scripture - unless of course her husband is there and it isn't in a church building'. If you want to say 'thou shalt not steal' includes stealing shoes, you can't then go and add your own get out clauses.

Touche'. I agree. As long as you agree that Paul's prohibition of women teaching obviously encompasses teaching scripture.

Speaking as a recovered legalist, it is too easy to tie yourself up with verses taken way beyond the context they were meant in.
Again, I agree. A good example of this would be using a narrative in Acts to try and overturn a prohibition from a Pastoral Epistle written much later. Nudge nudge, wink wink. I think you know what I'm getting at. :thumbsup:

Paul cannot have meant I do not permit any woman to teach any man anything, because God had Priscilla teach Apollos.

Set aside for a minute the fact that we disagree on that narrative passage from Acts, lets pretend you have just been installed as a female Pastor at your church. Your first teaching sermon will be on the subject of why you place an example from that narrative in Acts higher than an epistle written with the express purpose of allowing its recipient to know how to conduct church life. What is it about that example, which occurred before Paul laid down his guidelines recorded in 1 Timothy, that you feel liberates you to totally disregard Paul's later admonition?

But hey in the meantime lets ban women from doing anything other than serving tea and coffee ;)

Scripture allows them a lot more than that. If they really want to teach what's wrong with allowing them to teach other women and teaching kids?

Wow you have your insults organised on your own website? ^_^

Not my own 'website' no. I use Photobucket. You may have heard of it? I started collecting the images during a protracted, heated debate about global warming on another forum. Whilst the folder on Photobucket is called 'insults' I'm not using the insulting ones here. I'm just using some that I think add some light relief. I'll stop though if it's distracting.
 
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Touche'. I agree. As long as you agree that Paul's prohibition of women teaching obviously encompasses teaching scripture.
Paul didn't say, though it is pretty clear Priscilla was teaching scripture and doctrine to Apollos. You see, you seem to be assuming Paul was making a blanket statement covering any woman teaching anything to a man, which as we have seen contradicts Priscilla in Acts, whereas Paul may just as easily have been addressing a particular situation with particular women, new disciples still learning themselves (verse 11), trying to teach in particular circumstances, taking over the class (hence repetition of quite in verse 11 & 12 and explaining the authority they were usurping - their teacher's) or interrupting class to make a dig at their husband (did you hear that Tertius he said husbands love you wives) or teaching their husbands at home, or even worse teaching a man who wasn't their husbands, or the problem could have been a woman teaching a man not scripture but authentein.

Again, I agree. A good example of this would be using a narrative in Acts to try and overturn a prohibition from a Pastoral Epistle written much later. Nudge nudge, wink wink. I think you know what I'm getting at. :thumbsup:
:sorry: sorry, no did not catch the reference, the python bit yes, not Acts. Which make me wonder what I am walking into with your next question :D

Set aside for a minute the fact that we disagree on that narrative passage from Acts, lets pretend you have just been installed as a female Pastor at your church. Your first teaching sermon will be on the subject of why you place an example from that narrative in Acts higher than an epistle written with the express purpose of allowing its recipient to know how to conduct church life. What is it about that example, which occurred before Paul laid down his guidelines recorded in 1 Timothy, that you feel liberates you to totally disregard Paul's later admonition?
I might talk about the need to allow plain straightforward texts to explain the meaning of obscure one, rather than taking our interpretation of an obscure text and making straightforward ones fit that. I would point out the importance of context and that epistles were often written reply to specific problems how they can be like overhearing a conversation on a phone, we know what our friend is saying but don't always know what they are saying it in reply to, we try to fill in the gaps as we listen in, but we can get it wrong and end up having to apologise to people we hurt. The great thing with Acts is Luke has given us all the gossip we need, we know the context because it is part of the narrative. I would point out the difficulty of understanding what Paul was saying from a very different cultural perspective. People had a hard enough time understanding him in his own culture. That if what we think we understand from an obscure passage two thousand years later contradicts how Paul and those working with him actually 'did church', then we probably misunderstand what he was saying. Then I'd invite everyone around for coffee and a slice of my husband's fruit bran loaf.

Scripture allows them a lot more than that. If they really want to teach what's wrong with allowing them to teach other women and teaching kids?
Heaven forfend! Boys grow up into men who will have the lessons of their Sunday School teacher seared into their brain, the voice of a woman still teaching them from their memory decades later. Anyway Paul said they were to be quiet with exclude teaching women too ;)

Not my own 'website' no. I use Photobucket. You may have heard of it? I started collecting the images during a protracted, heated debate about global warming on another forum. Whilst the folder on Photobucket is called 'insults' I'm not using the insulting ones here. I'm just using some that I think add some light relief. I'll stop though if it's distracting.
:sad: I missed them.
 
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Crankitup

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Paul didn't say, though it is pretty clear Priscilla was teaching scripture and doctrine to Apollos.

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"... pretty clear that Priscilla was teaching scripture and doctrine" you say. Is it?

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

(1) The Greek word used in Acts 18:26 is not didaskō (teach) but ektithēmi (explain/expound).

(2) Aquila and Priscilla are both mentioned as having HEARD Apollos. The text then says they took him home and explained the way of God more perfectly.

There's two possibilities here. (A) they both heard him and decided his knowledge of Christian salvation was lacking and came to a joint decision to take him home and then fully & equally participated in explaining the gospel to him, or (B) the author of Acts (probably Luke) is using an economy of language and the truth is that whilst they both HEARD Apollos and both decided to take him home, Aquila did all or almost all of the explaining once they got there.

In fact this may be the very reason Paul feels the need to be clearer on this in his later Pastoral Epistle. It may have been that some women in the early church, having read Luke's account, may have been clamoring to teach taking their cue (wrongly) from this account.

(3) The narrative in Acts occurs very early in the history of the Church. Certainly well before the book itself or in fact any of the books of the New Testament were completed. What scripture then would they have been 'teaching' according to you? Some messianic prophecies in the OT perhaps? Well, Apollos seems to have been aware of them since he was conversant with the baptism of John.

:sorry: sorry, no did not catch the reference, the python bit yes, not Acts. Which make me wonder what I am walking into with your next question :D

The passage in Acts about Priscilla. The one you keep bringing up because you seem to be certain it overturns Paul's prohibition in a Pastoral Epistle (I Timothy) written much later.


:sad: I missed them.

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5?

"... pretty clear that Priscilla was teaching scripture and doctrine" you say. Is it?

Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

(1) The Greek word used in Acts 18:26 is not didaskō (teach) but ektithēmi (explain/expound).
So what you are saying is that it is absolutely forbidden for a woman to teach a man how to sew, bake or do brain surgery, but she is allowed expound scripture and doctrine to him? Perhaps if you asked some of the ladies here on CF to expound 1Tim 2:12 for you ^_^

(2) Aquila and Priscilla are both mentioned as having HEARD Apollos. The text then says they took him home and explained the way of God more perfectly.

There's two possibilities here. (A) they both heard him and decided his knowledge of Christian salvation was lacking and came to a joint decision to take him home and then fully & equally participated in explaining the gospel to him, or (B) the author of Acts (probably Luke) is using an economy of language and the truth is that whilst they both HEARD Apollos and both decided to take him home, Aquila did all or almost all of the explaining once they got there.
Luke says 'they'. Whether you try to make Aquilla the main expositor or not, Luke still says Priscilla too part in teaching Apollos too. In fact the only indication we have of who might have taken in the lead in teaching Apollos is Luke's choice of word order giving their names, Priscilla and Aquila, something he uses to indicate who lead the mission team, with 'Barnabas and Saul' when Barnabas lead then 'Paul and Barnabas' when Paul took over. That may not be what Luke is doing here, but it certainly does not indicate Priscilla making coffees and writing Sunday School notes for when Apollos has children..

In fact this may be the very reason Paul feels the need to be clearer on this in his later Pastoral Epistle. It may have been that some women in the early church, having read Luke's account, may have been clamoring to teach taking their cue (wrongly) from this account.
Wasn't Acts written around the same time as 1Timothy, towards the end of Pauls life? If Priscilla's terrible example had caused problems wouldn't Luke have been more careful when he wrote the account, and explained how it was just Priscilla's misplaced zeal that lead her to usurp a man's role? And if mature Christian women like Priscilla were causing the problem why would Paul write to Timothy warning about women who were still learning about Christianity?

(3) The narrative in Acts occurs very early in the history of the Church. Certainly well before the book itself or in fact any of the books of the New Testament were completed. What scripture then would they have been 'teaching' according to you? Some messianic prophecies in the OT perhaps?
They certainly formed the basis of the early gospel preaching and debates between Christians and Jews we read of in Acts.

Well, Apollos seems to have been aware of them since he was conversant with the baptism of John.
How about Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit. Apollos only knew John's water baptism not the baptism in the Spirit. Remember too the disciples were still only learning the significance of the OT scripture after Jesus' resurrection. Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. before the cross, the disciples just didn't get it about the messiah having to die.

The passage in Acts about Priscilla. The one you keep bringing up because you seem to be certain it overturns Paul's prohibition in a Pastoral Epistle (I Timothy) written much later.
Nah, it just contradicts our traditional misunderstanding of what Paul meant, but it shows us the role of godly women in the early church, women that Paul had the highest regard for, not just Priscilla who Paul calls a fellow worker in Rom 16:3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus and send greeting to in 2Tim 4:19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, but women like Phoebe and Junia, or Euodia and Syntyche who Paul says laboured side by side with him Phil 4:2&3. We really need to stop trying to explain away all these godly women and realise women's ministries were normal in the NT.

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Crankitup

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So what you are saying is that it is absolutely forbidden for a woman to teach a man how to sew, bake or do brain surgery, but she is allowed expound scripture and doctrine to him? Perhaps if you asked some of the ladies here on CF to expound 1Tim 2:12 for you ^_^

No that was not what I was saying and you well know it. The Greek word translated as 'expound' in Acts 18:26 is different from the Greek word translated as 'teach' in I Tim 2:12 and they are different because they mean different things.

Luke says 'they'.
Yes ... they took him unto them.

Whether you try to make Aquilla the main expositor or not, Luke still says Priscilla too part in teaching Apollos too. In fact the only indication we have of who might have taken in the lead in teaching Apollos is Luke's choice of word order giving their names, Priscilla and Aquila, something he uses to indicate who lead the mission team, with 'Barnabas and Saul' when Barnabas lead then 'Paul and Barnabas' when Paul took over.

Once again, Luke says no such thing. He uses a different Greek word. As far as who is mentioned first, the KJV, relying on the Textus Receptus as it's base, actually mentions Aquila first.

Wasn't Acts written around the same time as 1Timothy, towards the end of Pauls life?

The point is not when it was written but when the events in Acts occurred. They occurred well before Paul wrote I Timothy.

How about Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. 29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit.

Possibly, but Luke specifically says the 'way of God' was explained to Apollos 'more accurately'. Whether they used scripture to do so we can't be certain.
 
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Crankitup

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I 100% believe that women and men were created for complementary (but different) roles in the Church.

The New Testament is clear that Paul thought only men were designed to be leaders of a congregation, but whether or not this is to be applied in today's world is another matter.

I Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


By going back to Adam and Eve who existed thousands of years before him, Paul wasn't using reasons contemporaneous with his own culture, he was transcending his own culture. This automatically rules out all modern day liberal appeals to local conditions, customs or a context peculiar to Ephesus. Paul feels it necessary to explain his admonition against women teaching or being in authority over men by referring to Eve's being DECEIVED in contrast with Adam NOT being deceived. Furthermore Jesus had no problem breaking social conventions where He felt it would be good to do so. He didn't do so in the area of picking a female to be one of his disciples.
 
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No that was not what I was saying and you well know it. The Greek word translated as 'expound' in Acts 18:26 is different from the Greek word translated as 'teach' in I Tim 2:12 and they are different because they mean different things.
Of course that isn't what you meant :D but it is the implication of the way you are trying to distinguish between teach and expound. You see there are plenty of words in the languages we speak and in NT Greek that are synonyms or have overlapping meanings. Priscilla and Aquilla expounding scripture and doctrine to Apollos mean teaching him the meaning of scripture and teaching him the doctrine of Christianity he missed out on. Expound tells us what sort of teaching they were giving him. Unfortunately this is the very sort of teaching people want to forbid women ministers from doing, while they are happy with women teaching sewing, baking and brain surgery, which is still teaching only it doesn't have the wonderful example of Priscilla to show us it isn't what Paul meant in 1Tim 2.

Yes ... they took him unto them.
They expounded to him too. You see, in English if you have two verbs in a row, you don't have to repeat the pronoun. In Greek the person doing the action I, you, he, she, it, we or they is part of the verb. Priscilla and Aquilla both took Apollos and both expounded scripture and doctrine to him. Acts 18:26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took [προσελαβοντο, verb third person plural] him and (they) explained [εξεθεντο, verb third person plural] to him the way of God more accurately.


Once again, Luke says no such thing. He uses a different Greek word.
It is not as if Luke was clearly distinguishing exposit from teach, he simply uses the word exposit, and expounding to someone is teaching them.

As far as who is mentioned first, the KJV, relying on the Textus Receptus as it's base, actually mentions Aquila first.
Yeah I noticed that when I was looking into the verbs just now. The NT seems to switch back and forth between Priscilla and Aquila being named first, even in the textus receptus.

The point is not when it was written but when the events in Acts occurred. They occurred well before Paul wrote I Timothy.
Well if the events of Priscilla so scandalously teaching a man caused such a problem in the church, you would think Luke would be much more careful explaining that expounding scripture does not mean teaching, choosing a work that could not possibly be mistaken for teaching like χύστε τον καφέ, or telling us that Priscilla got carried away in her youthful zeal but that now she knows better. Luke covered a lot of controversies in the early church, this wasn't one of them.

Possibly, but Luke specifically says the 'way of God' was explained to Apollos 'more accurately'. Whether they used scripture to do so we can't be certain.
She is still teaching him the 'way of God', which is teaching. and incidentally she is teaching you that you got it wrong about women teaching. But then, if anybody is to expound the meaning of 1Tim 2:12 to you, who better than Prisca and Aquila, Paul's fellow workers in Christ Jesus Rom 16:3.
 
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I Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


By going back to Adam and Eve who existed thousands of years before him, Paul wasn't using reasons contemporaneous with his own culture, he was transcending his own culture. This automatically rules out all modern day liberal appeals to local conditions, customs or a context peculiar to Ephesus. Paul feels it necessary to explain his admonition against women teaching or being in authority over men by referring to Eve's being DECEIVED in contrast with Adam NOT being deceived. Furthermore Jesus had no problem breaking social conventions where He felt it would be good to do so. He didn't do so in the area of picking a female to be one of his disciples.
What make you think the points Paul drew from the Adam and Eve story weren't dealing with particular issues in Ephesus? And if we look at other passages where Paul talks about Adam and Eve, he uses them to discuss marriage, you also get this from his reference to childbirth as well as his switching to the singular woman and man, which all suggests Paul is dealing specifically with issues between a wife and husband rather women leading churches.
 
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Crankitup

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Priscilla and Aquilla expounding scripture and doctrine to Apollos mean teaching him the meaning of scripture .....

There you go again reading into the text what isn't there in order to advance your egalitarian/pro-Jezebel stance. Luke doesn't mention 'teaching', 'doctrine' or 'scripture' in Acts 18:26.

Yeah I noticed that when I was looking into the verbs just now. The NT seems to switch back and forth between Priscilla and Aquila being named first, even in the textus receptus.

So likely the ordering of their names means very little, if anything if it chops and changes like that. I would read more significance into why Paul chose to use her formal name (Prisca) when mentioning her and Luke chose to use the diminutive (Priscilla), than the order of her mention.

Well if the events of Priscilla so scandalously teaching a man caused such a problem in the church, you would think Luke would be much more careful ...

I can't see why he would feel the need to if he knew Paul had addressed the issue quite adequately in his Epistle, which you say was written around the same time.


She is still teaching him the 'way of God', which is teaching.

No. They expounded him the 'way of God' more accurately, which is expounding. Incidentally when many churches send out couples to pioneer new churches they mention it in their newsletters in forms similar to 'David & Erin Jones - missionaries to Africa'. They are mentioned equally even if the husband is going to be doing all of the pastoring and teaching.
 
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Crankitup

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What make you think the points Paul drew from the Adam and Eve story weren't dealing with particular issues in Ephesus? And if we look at other passages where Paul talks about Adam and Eve, he uses them to discuss marriage, you also get this from his reference to childbirth as well as his switching to the singular woman and man, which all suggests Paul is dealing specifically with issues between a wife and husband rather women leading churches.

It suggests nothing of the sort to me.

1 Timothy 2:12 but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

13 for Adam was formed first, then Eve:

14 and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression
(Darby Translation)

Matthew 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes (King James Version)

In any case why would you assume that any particular action by a believer recorded in Acts is necessarily a correct one? Even if by some miracle you were able to persuade me that the Greek word in Acts 18:26 does mean EXACTLY the same thing as didasko, Paul clearly emphasizes a prohibition in I tim 2:12. Another event in Acts is described regarding one of the chief apostles Peter, whereby under pressure from the Jews he withdrew from eating with Gentiles. Are we then to take this as normative in the same way?

Luke clearly chose to distinguish what Apollos was doing in Acts 18:25, teaching (didasko) people about Christ; from what Aquila & Prisca did with him. He did so by using a different Greek word.
 
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having read this whole banter of discussion i'd have to say to Crankitup that you made your strongest argument about Priscilla at the end.

"In any case why would you assume that any particular action by a believer recorded in Acts is necessarily a correct one? Even if by some miracle you were able to persuade me that the Greek word in Acts 18:26 does mean EXACTLY the same thing as didasko, Paul clearly emphasizes a prohibition in I tim 2:12. Another event in Acts is described regarding one of the chief apostles Peter, whereby under pressure from the Jews he withdrew from eating with Gentiles. Are we then to take this as normative in the same way?"

I think this is a very strong point. The teaching came after the even of Priscilla and Acuilla at which time there was no order from God as to how to go about things. Esp from the gentile point of view. Also from what i've read about the cultral setting for Acts and the gentiles of that period, there were women in high regard and power at that time and i think Priscilla would fit into that category.
 
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Thanks for bumping the thread jensunner I missed these posts :)
There you go again reading into the text what isn't there in order to advance your egalitarian/pro-Jezebel stance. Luke doesn't mention 'teaching', 'doctrine' or 'scripture' in Acts 18:26.
Yet what Priscilla was doing by expounding the way to Apollos was teaching him. Apollos missed out on some of the basic details about Christianity and Priscilla explained them to him. What was this if it is was not teaching? And if this is not teaching, does that mean women minister can do the same exposition about Christianity in Church as long as they claim it is 'exposition not teaching'? How would they teach, sorry expound this without mentioning scripture or doctrine? This is just silly. You might as well argue with the zoo keeper that you weren't feeding the animals you were just giving the elephant peanuts because he was hungry. Expounding the way of God more perfectly to Apollos was teaching him.

So likely the ordering of their names means very little, if anything if it chops and changes like that.
I don't think you can say the order is insignificant because they switch back and forth in different contexts. More likely there were reasons for the specific choices. Interestingly apart from the texual variations in Acts 18:26 all of the references that put Aquilla first are in the context of the church in Corinth. We are introduced to them in Acts 18:1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla. Later when Paul writes to Corinth he refers to them as 1Cor 16:19 Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, But it was when they began accompanying Paul on his missionary work they became known as Priscilla and Aquila, which is how they were known everywhere else outside Corinth after that. Possibly the difference is that in Corinth they were first known in the Jewish community through the husband's business of making tents, whereas everywhere else they were know as Paul's fellow workers and Priscilla was the one with the more powerful ministry.

I would read more significance into why Paul chose to use her formal name (Prisca) when mentioning her and Luke chose to use the diminutive (Priscilla), than the order of her mention.
Not sure what you can read into Luke was using the more familiar form of her name. Sound more like a term of affection rather than criticism especially when he speaks so positively about her teaching. Paul's usage is harder to tie down as this is one of the areas where there is a lot of textual variation. However if you follow the Textus Receptus Paul refers to her as Priscilla in Rom 16:3 and 1Cor 16:19 and Prisca in 2Tim 4:19. He never speaks of her in anything other than the highest respect.

I can't see why he would feel the need to if he knew Paul had addressed the issue quite adequately in his Epistle, which you say was written around the same time.
So Theophilus would have had a copy of Paul's letter to Timothy? And that is assuming the letter to Timothy was even written at that stage. Of course Paul had adequately dealt with the circumcision controversy in Galatians, in a lot more detail than the brief reference you build your doctrine on in 1Tim. There was also a letter circulating from the council of Jerusalem on the subject. Yet Luke goes into detail about the controversy in Acts. Clearly women's ministry is just as dangerous if you think they are all Jezebels, yet apparently Paul adequately dealt with it in a single obscure verse.

No. They expounded him the 'way of God' more accurately, which is expounding.
Apart from the fact you do not like to admit a woman taught a man, is there any reason to think expounding the way of God more accurately to Apollos wasn't teaching him the way of God? Do you think Apollos learned anything from Priscilla's exposition?

Incidentally when many churches send out couples to pioneer new churches they mention it in their newsletters in forms similar to 'David & Erin Jones - missionaries to Africa'. They are mentioned equally even if the husband is going to be doing all of the pastoring and teaching.
It is when they refer to the couple as Erin and David that you have to ask who is doing most of the preaching.

It suggests nothing of the sort to me.

1 Timothy 2:12 but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

13 for Adam was formed first, then Eve:

14 and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression
(Darby Translation)
So Paul uses words man and woman which can just as easily be translate husband and wife, he uses a passage in Genesis that everywhere else he uses to refer to marriage, and he specifically talks about the problem of childbirth, but you don't think he might be talking about husband and wife? Isn't context supposed to be important in understanding a verse?

Matthew 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes (King James Version)
Yes indeed that is the word exousia the normal word for power or authority in the NT, used for civil authority or spiritual authority. Odd then Paul doesn't use this word when he is supposedly forbidding women from holding positions of authority in the church.

In any case why would you assume that any particular action by a believer recorded in Acts is necessarily a correct one?
Because reading scripture two thousand years later in a very different culture and context it is very easy to take an obscure verse out of context and think it meant something very different from how Christians at the time would have understood it. The idea of Paul forbidding women ministry would have been nonsensical to churches who knew Paul and all the powerful women's ministries associated with him. I sometime takes this approach when JWs call to the door. They have their own interpretations of all the passages which speak of Christ's deity, but what they cannot explain is how their practice is so different from the early Christians. They may explain away Peter bowing down before Jesus or Thomas saying 'my Lord and my God', but they could not do it themselves. The practice of the early followers of Christ contradicts their carefully set out bible interpretations.

Even if by some miracle you were able to persuade me that the Greek word in Acts 18:26 does mean EXACTLY the same thing as didasko,
It probably would take a miracle when you are so set against understanding the meaning of a very straightforward passage :) Of course as I have pointed out expounding to someone is not exactly the same as teaching. Showing someone how to knit or cook is teaching too, but it is not expounding. Teaching is very broad and includes a wide range of topics and methods of teaching, including Priscilla's expounding the way of God more perfectly to Apollos. As I pointed out before, people who think 1Tim 2:12 forbid women ministers tend not to have a problem with women teaching men how to bake or remove an appendix, their problem is with women teaching men the very topics Priscilla taught Apollos.

Paul clearly emphasizes a prohibition in I tim 2:12.
Paul does emphasize a prohibition in 1Tim 2:12, but we would be much better off trying to understand what Paul meant by a women teaching and authentien an individual man either her husband or worse an man who wasn't her husband. We should look at how Paul gave the prohibition in the context of new believers still learning about Christianity rather than mature Christians in ministry that surrounded Paul like Phoebe and Junia, or women he describes as his fellow workers like Euodia Syntyche and Priscilla. The big problem is we do not not know what Paul meant by authentein, a word that had a wide range of often pretty ugly meaning. There is no justification for assuming it must mean women having authority in the church when the word wasn't used that. We really should not take an obscure passage like this, out of the context it is written in, and assume it forbids the sort of women's ministries we see describe again and again in the pages of the NT.

Another event in Acts is described regarding one of the chief apostles Peter, whereby under pressure from the Jews he withdrew from eating with Gentiles. Are we then to take this as normative in the same way?
Aren't we told in the same passage that Paul opposed him face to face? Luke on the other hand has only good things to say about Priscilla teaching Apollos "the way of God more perfectly", while Paul describe Priscilla and Aquila as, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus Rom 16:3. No hint of any problem with Priscilla teaching Apollos or her continued ministry with Paul.

Luke clearly chose to distinguish what Apollos was doing in Acts 18:25, teaching (didasko) people about Christ; from what Aquila & Prisca did with him. He did so by using a different Greek word.
The problem is you are assuming he used the different words to distinguish Priscilla's exposition from Apollos who was allowed to actually teach. A simpler explanation, and one that fits the context, is that Luke chose the word to highlight how much deeper and accurate Priscilla's teaching was. Luke's point was that Priscilla's teaching was a more perfect exposition than Apollo's teaching which was accurate but incomplete. Another problem with your argument is that the teaching Apollos was described as doing was preaching the gospel, a form of teaching the even people who reject women ministers allow women to do. Priscilla was teaching a man who was already a Christian.
 
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having read this whole banter of discussion i'd have to say to Crankitup that you made your strongest argument about Priscilla at the end.

"In any case why would you assume that any particular action by a believer recorded in Acts is necessarily a correct one? Even if by some miracle you were able to persuade me that the Greek word in Acts 18:26 does mean EXACTLY the same thing as didasko, Paul clearly emphasizes a prohibition in I tim 2:12. Another event in Acts is described regarding one of the chief apostles Peter, whereby under pressure from the Jews he withdrew from eating with Gentiles. Are we then to take this as normative in the same way?"

I think this is a very strong point. The teaching came after the even of Priscilla and Acuilla at which time there was no order from God as to how to go about things. Esp from the gentile point of view. Also from what i've read about the cultral setting for Acts and the gentiles of that period, there were women in high regard and power at that time and i think Priscilla would fit into that category.
If 1Tim 2:12 was a new restriction, then I presume you would have no problem with earlier instances of women in leadership in the church, like Phoebe the deacon, the apostle Junia or Pheobe's teaching ministry. But if that is the case, why was Paul's prohibition against women in ministry addressed in the context of new believers who were still learning about Christianity 1Tim 2:11 Let the woman learn... instead of addressing all the mature Christian women with powerful ministries already in existence?

You may be right about cultural setting though, it is interesting that Paul was writing to Timothy in Ephesus and that something was going on there that Paul describes as authentein which had to be stopped, rather than proper women's ministries we see in the rest of the NT.
 
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