What is a counter-missionary?

[MikhaelDavid]

Yedida,

I have similiar questions regarding names like Israel, Judahite, Jewish, Christian, etc..

I wonder why we first call ourselves Christians when it was the enemies of Christ who gave us that name when throughout Scripture we were always called Israel.. When did the word Jewish become a byword for all believers.. It seems that the word in Romans where it talks about being a Jew inwardly uses in the word Judahite in Greek and not Jew. Then I am wondering why call ourselves Messianic Judaism... Isn't all Judaism Messianic and whether believed to be Yeshua or believe in some future Messiah, it is all Messianic.. Wouldn't a better name be better...

I am just rambling here through various thoughts... But I have thought it better to be called what God called us, Israel as the corporate people and Israelite as the individual.. But still needs something added to say we believe in Yeshua as the Messiah.. Maybe a Nazarene Israelite? or something better?

The whole idea of calling ourselves Christians have created the idea that Christianity is a completely different religion, which is not what Yeshua was trying to do.

Interestingly, Israel means "Princes of God"...

Anyway, I know that is not what you trying to go into.. But bringing up the issues of Israel, Judah, Lost Sheep, etc made my mind think about the above which I have been contemplating all week long...

A question that goes back some in time from when Yeshua walked among his people.
Was Judea or the Jews known as "Israel" back then, even tho they originally were called Judah, and the northern kingdom was called "Israel." Could not the "lost sheep" really literally be the "lost" as they weren't as lost back then as now, not as assimultad as now, there were still records that could have been studied, weren't there?

But, of course, if that's the case, it opens up the question as to why would Yeshua have stayed in that area when it was his time to preach......

Guess I'm just ruminating......

 

[Lulav]

.

 

[yedida]

Yedida,

I have similiar questions regarding names like Israel, Judahite, Jewish, Christian, etc..

I wonder why we first call ourselves Christians when it was the enemies of Christ who gave us that name when throughout Scripture we were always called Israel.. When did the word Jewish become a byword for all believers.. It seems that the word in Romans where it talks about being a Jew inwardly uses in the word Judahite in Greek and not Jew. Then I am wondering why call ourselves Messianic Judaism... Isn't all Judaism Messianic and whether believed to be Yeshua or believe in some future Messiah, it is all Messianic.. Wouldn't a better name be better...

I am just rambling here through various thoughts... But I have thought it better to be called what God called us, Israel as the corporate people and Israelite as the individual.. But still needs something added to say we believe in Yeshua as the Messiah.. Maybe a Nazarene Israelite? or something better?

The whole idea of calling ourselves Christians have created the idea that Christianity is a completely different religion, which is not what Yeshua was trying to do.

Interestingly, Israel means "Princes of God"...

Anyway, I know that is not what you trying to go into.. But bringing up the issues of Israel, Judah, Lost Sheep, etc made my mind think about the above which I have been contemplating all week long...

I agree. Maybe we should bring this topic into your Terms thread.

Sorry for the rabbit trail. Back to the OP.

 

[anisavta]

I'm a Jew who follows the Jewish Messiah Yeshua. Simple as that.
As to how to "witness" to a Jew? For a Gentile - make them jealous that you have a working vibrant relationship with G~d. For a Jew - make them wonder why you have a working vibrant relationship with G~d and it doesn't contradict Torah. Words are cheap. Living one's life before another is priceless.

 

[yedida]

I'm a Jew who follows the Jewish Messiah Yeshua. Simple as that.
As to how to "witness" to a Jew? For a Gentile - make them jealous that you have a working vibrant relationship with G~d. For a Jew - make them wonder why you have a working vibrant relationship with G~d and it doesn't contradict Torah. Words are cheap. Living one's life before another is priceless.

Amen!!!
And I'd add, that is about the only way to witness the validity of Torah to a traditional Christian. Unless they ask you, you should just let them read the letter Yeshua is writing in you.

 

[Tishri1]

Question to the MJs: What if it provokes them to anger not jealousy? Does that mean we start over and try a different way? Or do we keep at it to the best of our own ability and pray it works some day?

What is spreading the gospel?

 

[yedida]

Question to the MJs: What if it provokes them to anger not jealousy? Does that mean we start over and try a different way? Or do we keep at it to the best of our own ability and pray it works some day?

What is spreading the gospel?

Even if it became anger, wouldn't they still have to stop and try to figure out just what it is that is making them angry?
Personally, I just wait till someone asks me. Being MJ/G it doesn't take long at all to become apparent that there are some differences, so questions just naturally arise. Answering, I stay on topic and just let the conversation run its normal course. I figure the Holy Spirit will work as He sees fit, He knows what and how much someone needs to know at that moment (or maybe what I need to know).

 

[Tishri1]

The Church doesnt interact/witness or support the Jews any more which IMO goes against what the Lord said he wanted (to the Jew first, then the nations) and to me this could be one reason why he wanted us to seek out the Jews who dont know him yet.....

The bible talks about how the nation of Israel will repent someday and call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.....Yeshua said they would not see Him till they say "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"(another way to call the Bride Groom and the King) and we see in Paul how to intercede for them

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]
9 And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]

Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16

If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
​

One day they will all cry out to Yeshua to save them and he promised when they do he will return. What a day that will be and what an even greater day knowing we were at the forefront, on our knees praying for them when they do

MJ's are the only ones doing this consistently, supporting them with our time, money, and resouces, the only ones getting close enough to share almost everything the world thinks is odd about them, and we are the ones having to face counter missionaries when we do this.

We are the ones being scoffed at and put down by everyone but, especially the ones we reach out to with love.

Question to the MJ's: Should we stop? The Church forgot the message, should we?

 

[yedida]

As far as I remember, Hashem promised that as long as there is a sun, moon and stars in the sky and seasons in the year, He would NEVER turn His back on Israel. Last time I looked those things are still there.
Lord forbid we ever stop loving the apple of His eye!!

 

[SGM4HIM]

Tishri1 brings up a very good point.

When I was a member of a conservative synagogue in Jacksonville I had never heard of Messianic Judaism.
There's got to be a middle ground between in you face street evangelism and polite MJ's. I know it's hard for those MJ's that aren't around any Jewish communites (up in Ga) to have any influence. But what about those MJ's in large metropolitan areas. Are you actively involved within the Jewish Community?
According to the Post Missionary MJ position, it must occur from within the community. But how will this be possible?
Here's a question for MJ's and all believers. How do we really feel about Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Here's an interesting dialogue between Michael Brown and a MJ leader. I have posted in before but some newer members may not have seen it. Good food for thought. No clubs over the head response intended.
Michael Brown and Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism | Messianic Jewish Musings

 

[yedida]

Tishri1 brings up a very good point.

When I was a member of a conservative synagogue in Jacksonville I had never heard of Messianic Judaism.
There's got to be a middle ground between in you face street evangelism and polite MJ's. I know it's hard for those MJ's that aren't around any Jewish communites (up in Ga) to have any influence. But what about those MJ's in large metropolitan areas. Are you actively involved within the Jewish Community?
According to the Post Missionary MJ position, it must occur from within the community. But how will this be possible?
Here's a question for MJ's and all believers. How do we really feel about Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Here's an interesting dialogue between Michael Brown and a MJ leader. I have posted in before but some newer members may not have seen it. Good food for thought. No clubs over the head response intended.
Michael Brown and Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism | Messianic Jewish Musings

Tishri is absolutely right.
I believe that there is a fairly large Jewish community in the city of Atlanta proper but that's over 50miles away. There are 3 MJ synagogues nearby, 1 is quite large but the farthest away, but the 2 smaller ones are just minutes away from my house. But the congregants are scattered all over no real community.

I'm pretty sure everyone is familiar with this song, but I just wanted to use the lyrics to remind everyone we need to keep this as our most heartfelt prayer:
The Restoration of Israel
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Joel Chernoff[/font]
Well I could not be mistaken
When I saw you standing there
On that hill outside Jerusalem
I could see your heart was breaking
As the tears ran down your face
For the restoration of Israel
I could nnly feel frustration
Sadness in my heart arise
That I cannot understand the tears you cry
Though I fail to share your sorrows
Still I long to taste your tears
For the restoration of Israel

Help me Lord to weep the tears you weep
Help me Lord to feel the love you feel
Break my heart so more your burden share
For the restoration of Israel

Lord I pray that you will heal me
Bend your ear to this my cry
To make my heart like yours for Yisrael
For if only they could see you
In the reflection of my tears
Then for you their hearts would yearn again

Help me Lord to weep the tears you weep
Help me Lord to feel the love you feel
Break my heart so more your burden share
For the restoration of Israel

This is a prayer that He will answer in no time flat!

 

[Shimshon]

But what about those MJ's in large metropolitan areas. Are you actively involved within the Jewish Community?

As a Messianic Jew the traditional Jewish community has and will shun you out from most all communal activities. I was accepted all my life till I started expressing faith in Yeshua. The traditional communities will have nothing to do with 'Messies who believe in Yeshu' as they like to call us. Then they go so far as to deride your Jewishness. It's a VERY tough existence. We try to get involved in their community but as soon as someone finds out we believe in Yeshua we get the boot.

I personally don't believe in this form of 'evangelism'. Where you think you have to become part of the non-believing community. I am eagerly watching the emerging Messianic Jewish community. It took a while but I see leaders gathering and organizational communities foruming. This is good for us. We should be a light on a hill, not a flame in a cave.

Are you a fan of Derek, SGM? I like Dr. Brown, to a point. I enjoyed the link, thanks.

 

[Tishri1]

I just read the article and its very good

I dont see missionary work going on at all in my Synagogue or in the MJAA or UMJC like was described/implied in this article.

Question to MJs: Do any of your fellowships have missionary programs like we see described in this article like with street evangelism and hard sell tactics(preaching and yelling and passing out tracts)?

Or are they actually doing what this article hopes will happen, developing relationships and meeting needs through relational means?

Im realllllly curious to find out who is passing out tracts in their Congregations?

Tishri1 brings up a very good point.

When I was a member of a conservative synagogue in Jacksonville I had never heard of Messianic Judaism.
There's got to be a middle ground between in you face street evangelism and polite MJ's. I know it's hard for those MJ's that aren't around any Jewish communites (up in Ga) to have any influence. But what about those MJ's in large metropolitan areas. Are you actively involved within the Jewish Community?
According to the Post Missionary MJ position, it must occur from within the community. But how will this be possible?
Here's a question for MJ's and all believers. How do we really feel about Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Here's an interesting dialogue between Michael Brown and a MJ leader. I have posted in before but some newer members may not have seen it. Good food for thought. No clubs over the head response intended.
Michael Brown and Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism | Messianic Jewish Musings

 

[Rana42]

What I find so heartwrenching is that even the traditional Christians have jumped on the Messianic bandwagon now. It wasn't too long ago that on some TV show on (I think) God Network Channel (or something like that) there was a pastor and a rabbi (I think his name was Damiel Lapin?) selling talliot consecrated and blessed by holy anointing oil and these would bring healing for the wearers' ills! I just cried.

My father once told me that for every spiritual blessing, there is a spiritual counterfeit that often appears parallel. From the days of the rampant selling of indulgences in the Middle Ages to such examples as stated above, there are always forces pulling in both directions. How many traditional Christians have "jumped on the Messianic bandwagon" to discover that the roots (and branches!) of Christianity are far more powerful than they ever imagined? Yes, such stories are frustrating, even infuriating! Such things are usually a sign that something else, somewhere, is going right. You've certainly got this Anglican thinking about her Jewish roots!

 

[SGM4HIM]

I like Derek's site because he is well read and discusses plainly, subjects or issues within the messianic community. His position on Acts 15 is presented nicely. He also has another site Yeshua in Context which is good. He even tackles trinity and other controversial subjects.
BTW- I have recently visited several anti-missionary websites and was very surprised by the amount of misinformation and hostile tone toward MJ and Christianity. It's one thing to say I don't believe Jesus fullfiled the messianic requirements based on scriptures a,b,e&h. etc. and have a civil tone; but they have gone way beyond this.

My hope would be that hurt or dissatisfied Christians that go there to explore their Hebrew roots, would spend and equal or greater amount of time at Michael Brown and FFOZ and other MJ scholarly sites to get a "fair and balanced" view.

 

[yedida]

My father once told me that for every spiritual blessing, there is a spiritual counterfeit that often appears parallel. From the days of the rampant selling of indulgences in the Middle Ages to such examples as stated above, there are always forces pulling in both directions. How many traditional Christians have "jumped on the Messianic bandwagon" to discover that the roots (and branches!) of Christianity are far more powerful than they ever imagined? Yes, such stories are frustrating, even infuriating! Such things are usually a sign that something else, somewhere, is going right. You've certainly got this Anglican thinking about her Jewish roots!

YEA!!!!!
I pray your journey back to the future will be exhilerating and enlightening.

 

[yedida]

I just read the article and its very good

I dont see missionary work going on at all in my Synagogue or in the MJAA or UMJC like was described/implied in this article.

Question to MJs: Do any of your fellowships have missionary programs like we see described in this article like with street evangelism and hard sell tactics(preaching and yelling and passing out tracts)?

Or are they actually doing what this article hopes will happen, developing relationships and meeting needs through relational means?

Im realllllly curious to find out who is passing out tracts in their Congregations?

I must be living with my head in the sand!! MJs have tracts????? MJs street evangelizing?? Or am I misunderstanding?
The congregation I was first a part of never did street witnessing. We passed out socks, coats, gloves, etc. to the homeless in the big cities in the winter, but it was done without making them listen to pay for their warmth. If they asked, we answered. We built a few orphanages and schools in 3rd world countries and supported them. And we supported a few congregations in Russia, China, and Israel, but we did no street evangelizing at all. We just lived our lives to be seen by whoever had eyes to see.
Where I'm at now, the congregation is way too small and scattered to have any kind of organization that doing that would entail.

 

[Shimshon]

Question to MJs: Do any of your fellowships have missionary programs like we see described in this article like with street evangelism and hard sell tactics(preaching and yelling and passing out tracts)?

Or are they actually doing what this article hopes will happen, developing relationships and meeting needs through relational means?

Im realllllly curious to find out who is passing out tracts in their Congregations?

I think the Jews for Jesus model is outdated and not the model used by the majority of today's Messianic Jews. Today we have a complete 180 from that way of being. Today Messianic Jews seek to establish their own Jewish communities. And of course gentiles and non-believing Jews are welcome.

But, i've not seen the evangelical Jews for Jesus type of missionary in almost 10 yrs. And I live in a relatively big city. I think it was almost 8yrs ago that I ran into a J4J booth in a mall right before hanukkah. They had those tye-dyed type candles that caught my eye. Spent about 4 min talking to them. Never was my thing..... J4J.

But no, i've not seen any Messianic Jews who evangelize. Most are Messianic gentiles who do this, from my experience.

 

[Shimshon]

I like Derek's site because he is well read and discusses plainly, subjects or issues within the messianic community. His position on Acts 15 is presented nicely. He also has another site Yeshua in Context which is good. He even tackles trinity and other controversial subjects.

I remember when he came by here to interact. He was promptly shown the door, quite rudely. He has never returned. I think he has a whole lot more to offer than only hanging out in a discussion forum. I'm glad to see his site has matured. Can't say I agree completely with him, but I respect his integrity.

My hope would be that hurt or dissatisfied Christians that go there to explore their Hebrew roots, would spend and equal or greater amount of time at Michael Brown and FFOZ and other MJ scholarly sites to get a "fair and balanced" view.

I could not agree more!

 

[aniello]

Shimshon or SGM4HIM, may I please ask for a link to Derek's page or website? I'm interested in their views also. I do have the link to FFOZ, just the other is new to me. Thanks.