If you lost your faith.. do you think you would become depressed?

Nomarga

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You should check out/research this church Bethel Church - Your kingdom come... on earth as in heaven in Redding, California. They have a lot of medically documented healings that have taken place. I'm not sure if they would have any of those documents on the website, but they may have a doctor or two talking somewhere. Or if they don't, perhaps you could contact them and ask them if there is any way to see some medical documentation over a healing. I think they said they had at least 600 deaf people healed last year from prayer, among a lot of other healings that have taken place.

No amputees healed though, right? ;)

EDIT: I checked out the site for a little bit and the fact that they have this on their Healings page...

I, by calling the Bethel Healing Rooms via Skype hereby release the Healing Rooms Ministries, the Redding Healing Rooms and their volunteers or staff from any liability, for any harm or perceived harm resulting from my voluntary receiving of free prayer on this and subsequent visits. I understand that these Healing Rooms are staffed by volunteers representing the broad body of Christ and reflects many denominations and churches. They are not trained or licensed professionals of counseling, therapy or medical services. I understand that if I am currently taking medication, or operating under the advice of a professional service, I will allow them (my medical doctor, therapist, counselor, etc.) to confirm any results of prayer received before altering any prescribed course of action. By calling in, you are giving us permission to use any testimony resulting from prayer.
... leads me to question the effectiveness of such healings (not to mention all the results are simply testimonials and thus highly subjective).

If I get some more free time in the near future I'll investigate them more, but I doubt it'll get any further than anecdotal evidence because they probably won't (or shouldn't) release any medical information to some random inquirer.

Thanks for posting though! :)
 
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Im_A

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But back to the topic - I noticed that no one responded to the fact that I support my belief with supernatural events. I find that very interesting. :) The very miracle of the Incarnation is reason enough to never lose our trust in God. The Christian life involves the supernatural at all times, by its very definition. And since faith itself is a gift of God - not my own "belief" or "confidence" but a GIFT of believing - there is no way that it will falter.
I also don't respond to people who say that they have saw aliens. What's your point about people not responding? That doesn't mean I actually think they are telling me something real.

If you believed that Papa Smurf was riding in on a purple dragon or that an invisible tea cup circles the earth, if you live a productive life for yourself, and your society, believe whatever you want as far as I am concerned. Doesn't mean I'll believe you, or even engage in discussion with you about it.

Don't you think its egotistical or at least being needy for attention to make it known who no one commented? Plus, any type of arguments against it goes against the rules. I'm treading on the line right here by responding in regards to the topic of lack of response, let alone the actual point you brought up.
 
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I know you may not agree, but even if there is a theistic God, there's still no objective moral code.

Its all what people think or feel God wants. Its far from objective unless God himself wrote the Bible (or Quran, or any other holy book) with his own hand.

It is objective in that God reveals the essense of his truth and love for us through the bible and through Jesus Christ. If God is the essence of truth and the essence itself of moral behavior then yes he is the objective moral law giver because he himself is thge definition of morality, the essence of morality itself.

Sounds pretty objective to me, but maybe we have a different definition of what objective means lol:D
 
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I also don't respond to people who say that they have saw aliens. What's your point about people not responding? That doesn't mean I actually think they are telling me something real.

If you believed that Papa Smurf was riding in on a purple dragon or that an invisible tea cup circles the earth, if you live a productive life for yourself, and your society, believe whatever you want as far as I am concerned. Doesn't mean I'll believe you, or even engage in discussion with you about it.

Don't you think its egotistical or at least being needy for attention to make it known who no one commented? Plus, any type of arguments against it goes against the rules. I'm treading on the line right here by responding in regards to the topic of lack of response, let alone the actual point you brought up.

If you cannot believe in supernatural events, I would say that you havethe worldview of scientism, which means that if it cant be tested and repeatedin a lab it cant be believed. When my grandfather told my dad that he was saved physically from death(from being buried alive by 7 men) by an angel of God, the first thing he did was to think about who told him this. It was his grandfather, the one he knew that didnt sensationalise stories for attention, that didnt like gossiping and was very honest. My dad didnt need to see this repeated under a petri dish to believe it. He knew the source was trustworthy. The fact that his aunt prophesized this in a dream 2 days before made it even more concrete.

The sinnologist Joseph Needham warned against the obsessive use of scientism to learn about truth. Needham warned us against one of the most dangerous basic tenents of atheism, yet he was an atheist himself.
Sounds to me like he might have privately started expressing doubts about the logic of atheism:)
 
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Im_A

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If you cannot believe in supernatural events, I would say that you havethe worldview of scientism, which means that if it cant be tested and repeatedin a lab it cant be believed. When my grandfather told my dad that he was saved physically from death(from being buried alive by 7 men) by an angel of God, the first thing he did was to think about who told him this. It was his grandfather, the one he knew that didnt sensationalise stories for attention, that didnt like gossiping and was very honest. My dad didnt need to see this repeated under a petri dish to believe it. He knew the source was trustworthy. The fact that his aunt prophesized this in a dream 2 days before made it even more concrete.

The sinnologist Joseph Needham warned against the obsessive use of scientism to learn about truth. Needham warned us against one of the most dangerous basic tenents of atheism, yet he was an atheist himself.
Sounds to me like he might have privately started expressing doubts about the logic of atheism:)
Call it all you want but if you tell me experiences that you have that cannot be proven, that defy both logic and reason, I will not believe it. Plain and simple.

I won't go out of my way to disprove it though. It means nothing to me, and if it helps you live a happy life then believe whatever you want.

Just making a statement how no one commented on your claims is pretty silly to me to say the least.
 
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JohnDB

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I don't see how what you just said retracts from anything I've said, except that you have a undeniable line to the living God. Fine... I don't know what to say about that, without possibly being modded.

If you want to continue this discussion through PM that's fine, and feel free to post the exchange here if you want too. I don't have anything to hide.

Now do you want to just ponder my question or not?

The end point that I am trying to make is that the supposition that God doesn't exist cannot compute for us.

We would rather not exist and for God to exist than any kind of self-serving fantasy that God doesn't exist.

Because we live for Him...all we do is for HIM...we wish we could do more for HIM. I would rather every man be proved a liar than God to ever be suspected to lie.

I do not deserve heaven...even though it is a goal for some. I deserve the other place most assuredly. Even if I don't get to go to Heaven...I cannot stop on the course and lifestyle that I currently have for I believe that it is for the ultimate good.

But that is just it...God has promised and has never fallen short on a promise yet. For some odd reason He is going and has seen fit to allow me a pass into Heaven.

and as far as conservative goes...LOL...I am a liberal Christian. A lot more liberal than Catholics or Lutherans or Charismatic faiths.
 
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Nomarga

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If you cannot believe in supernatural events, I would say that you havethe worldview of scientism, which means that if it cant be tested and repeatedin a lab it cant be believed. When my grandfather told my dad that he was saved physically from death(from being buried alive by 7 men) by an angel of God, the first thing he did was to think about who told him this. It was his grandfather, the one he knew that didnt sensationalise stories for attention, that didnt like gossiping and was very honest. My dad didnt need to see this repeated under a petri dish to believe it. He knew the source was trustworthy. The fact that his aunt prophesized this in a dream 2 days before made it even more concrete.

I have a great uncle who was stationed (as a plane photographer) at Roswell when the infamous "alien events" took place. He never said much about his time there, but recently he has started saying that there were aliens and that he saw various parts of their technology.

He's been an honest man his whole life, so should I believe that there really were aliens at Roswell? No. With anecdotal evidence, all you can do is just accept that that person truly believes what happened and go about your life. Honest people can be honestly wrong about what they did or didn't see/experience. Such stories are merely "hearsay."
 
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Lord Herdsetk

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Having a personal experience of God intervening in your life can be called convenient by those who have not experienced God. For those who have, it is frustrating to relate your story to others without scrutiny.

I've had some claim that I was making up a few of my own experiences with God or even just 'reading too deep' into things. All i can say is, believe what you will. I can't force anyone to believe just as people can't force me to believe what they believe. I can only tell my side of the story and explain what happened in my life. I should know, I've been on both sides of the fence of believing in miracles and doubting in miracles.
 
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I have a great uncle who was stationed (as a plane photographer) at Roswell when the infamous "alien events" took place. He never said much about his time there, but recently he has started saying that there were aliens and that he saw various parts of their technology.

He's been an honest man his whole life, so should I believe that there really were aliens at Roswell? No. With anecdotal evidence, all you can do is just accept that that person truly believes what happened and go about your life. Honest people can be honestly wrong about what they did or didn't see/experience. Such stories are merely "hearsay."


This is what is called irrational skepticism and it was also warned about when the originator of the quote the onus of proof was afraid of.
Why should something supernatural defy logic? To me its perfectally natural to believe in the supernatural (get it lol), simply by the fact that even to teh minutest material doesnt have the explanation for its own existence. Nevermind this.

How can any of you ever prove that your father really is your father? He loves you and has cared for you all your life? Anyone can do that, not just a father, or maybe he had an alterior motive? DN test? Those can be facked if a person has the money and resources to prove it. How do we know that the government doesnt have the cloning technology to make another father from the dna of your father?

This is called irrational skepticism

Without taking that leap of faith you can neversay that you truely love him because love is a choice and it involves trust and faith. These materialist scientism scientists belong in a lab. If they ever got to rule the world they would make us believe that we were robots, that love is just a complex series of chemical reaction and that we would have no need of it or faith.



Honest people can have true experiences especially if they are backed by an independent party who had no way of knowing naturally in advance that this miracle could happen.

Pl;us how can you compare aliens to Jesus Christ. To me findingout that there are aliens wouldnt change humanitys meaning in any signifigant way.
Knowing God makes all the difference.
 
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Im_A

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Plus Christian-Catholic:
Am I a follower of scientism because I reject this claim?
An incident concerning Raghavendra Swami and Sir Thomas Munro has been recorded in the Madras Districts Gazetteer. In 1801, while serving as the Collector of Bellary, Sir Thomas Munro, who later served as the Governor of Madras is believed to have come across an appartion of Raghavendra Swami who had died almost two centuries back. Sir Thomas Munro is recorded as having spoke with Raghavendra Swami in English over an endowment proposal which he ultimately quashed as per the Swami's advice
The link to the claim is here: http://www.gururaghavendra1.org/miracragh.htm

Am I just a normal reasonable person because I reject the claims in regards to Hinduism, or do you use your claim only when those of us reject the acts of Jehovah?
 
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Having a personal experience of God intervening in your life can be called convenient by those who have not experienced God. For those who have, it is frustrating to relate your story to others without scrutiny.

I've had some claim that I was making up a few of my own experiences with God or even just 'reading too deep' into things. All i can say is, believe what you will. I can't force anyone to believe just as people can't force me to believe what they believe. I can only tell my side of the story and explain what happened in my life. I should know, I've been on both sides of the fence of believing in miracles and doubting in miracles.

Sounds coherent and logical to me :)
 
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Plus Christian-Catholic:
Am I a follower of scientism because I reject this claim?
The link to the claim is here: MIRACLES PERFORMED BY GURU RAGHAVENDRA

Am I just a normal reasonable person because I reject the claims in regards to Hinduism, or do you use your claim only when those of us reject the acts of Jehovah?

Your acting as if christianity is only about feidism, which is a common misconception of people attacking the faith. In fact our faith is based on testimony, faith and reason as well as having the best historicity of any religion on earth.

All of these things should be taken into consideration.
This examply is a very tired one put out by atheists for a long time. No wonder why christianity is experiencing an explosion in explosion in the anglo american realm and some of the great atheist philosophers turned away from it like flew. You can even look at the controversy with AJ Ayers, whose doctor talked about being told by ayers that he came face to face with the creator himself.

My guess would be that if Ayers was there during the miracle of fatima he would have converted to theism.
 
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Nomarga

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This is what is called irrational skepticism and it was also warned about when the originator of the quote the onus of proof was afraid of.
Why should something supernatural defy logic? To me its perfectally natural to believe in the supernatural (get it lol), simply by the fact that even to teh minutest material doesnt have the explanation for its own existence. Nevermind this.

Classic model of an argument from ignorance (it's not an insult, just the name of the fallacy). Simply because there is no current explanation doesn't mean that whatever x religion tells you is the way it must be.

Christian-Catholic said:
How can any of you ever prove that your father really is your father? He loves you and has cared for you all your life? Anyone can do that, not just a father, or maybe he had an alterior motive? DN test? Those can be facked if a person has the money and resources to prove it. How do we know that the government doesnt have the cloning technology to make another father from the dna of your father?

It is possible I'm living in the matrix or that our reality is simply the dream of some alien being. However, I have no evidence to support these beliefs, so I have no need to accept them. Similarly, I have no reason to doubt my parentage. Elaborate conspiracy theories regarding my father are quickly removed by Occam's Razor.

There is no reason to be overly skeptical about everything in one's life. If you were to tell me you went to Disney World when you were a child, I would not demand you to prove it because that's a reasonable statement. Now if you were to tell me you flew to Disney World on the back of a unicorn, I'd highly doubt it and I'd be even more skeptical if said unicorn told you who I should marry and what I should eat.

Christian-Catholic said:
Without taking that leap of faith you can neversay that you truely love him because love is a choice and it involves trust and faith.

Correct. The overwhelming amount of faith is one of the big reasons I left Christendom and (as far as I can see) will not return.

Christian-Catholic said:
These materialist scientism scientists belong in a lab. If they ever got to rule the world they would make us believe that we were robots, that love is just a complex series of chemical reaction and that we would have no need of it or faith.

As you believe.

Christian-Catholic said:
Honest people can have true experiences especially if they are backed by an independent party who had no way of knowing naturally in advance that this miracle could happen.

It is possible something extraordinary, even miraculous could have happened to a person somewhere at sometime. However, if he/she had no solid evidence to prove what did or didn't happen, that person could not expect anyone to "take them at their word," however personally frustrating that may be.

Christian-Catholic said:
Pl;us how can you compare aliens to Jesus Christ. To me findingout that there are aliens wouldnt change humanitys meaning in any signifigant way.
Knowing God makes all the difference.

Anecdotes are subject to the same scrutiny whether they be about aliens, stem-cell research or your version of a deity.
 
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Im_A

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Your acting as if christianity is only about feidism, which is a common misconception of people attacking the faith. In fact our faith is based on testimony, faith and reason as well as having the best historicity of any religion on earth.

All of these things should be taken into consideration.
This examply is a very tired one put out by atheists for a long time. No wonder why christianity is experiencing an explosion in explosion in the anglo american realm and some of the great atheist philosophers turned away from it like flew. You can even look at the controversy with AJ Ayers, whose doctor talked about being told by ayers that he came face to face with the creator himself.

My guess would be that if Ayers was there during the miracle of fatima he would have converted to theism.
How about answering the question about why you a follow of the god of the Bible won't answer a simple question if your use of scientism applies to those of us who reject Hinduism?

I am not attacking. I am asking a question. If you can't answer, don't dodge it by completely avoiding giving an answer.

Conversation is over.
 
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Isambard

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It is objective in that God reveals the essense of his truth and love for us through the bible and through Jesus Christ. If God is the essence of truth and the essence itself of moral behavior then yes he is the objective moral law giver because he himself is thge definition of morality, the essence of morality itself.

Sounds pretty objective to me, but maybe we have a different definition of what objective means lol:D

Yet there are some 30,000+ interpretations of God's Will. Seems like Donna's point stands.
 
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K9_Trainer

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It is objective in that God reveals the essense of his truth and love for us through the bible and through Jesus Christ. If God is the essence of truth and the essence itself of moral behavior then yes he is the objective moral law giver because he himself is thge definition of morality, the essence of morality itself.

Sounds pretty objective to me, but maybe we have a different definition of what objective means lol:D

If its objective, then it is fact.

But alas, its still subjective because it requires faith. You do not KNOW that the Bible contains the objective moral code that God wants us to live by. You have FAITH that it does, and you have FAITH that what it says in there is from God and not the man who wrote it all.

I mean, I understand your position here and why you are reaching this conclusion. If you believe that the Bible is the word of God as a fact, then there's no doubt that you must also believe the moral code contained in it is as well. But I'm just trying to point out that its still a belief. You believe its true and have faith that its true. That doesn't make it factually true.

I could believe that there are purple unicorns in space that ate pieces of the moon, and thats why craters exist. That doesn't make it true :p

Thats the difference between faith and knowledge.
 
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Isambard

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One might compare the universe to a computer program. Without the programmer, there is no program. In the case of a self replicating, evolving, program... that would suggest an incredibly intelligent programmer. This metaphor isn't perfect, but hopefully it communicates my point of view.

I would say that's a bad analogy as you are assuming an intent to the universe. It could be more along the lines of natural selection with simpler forms evolving into more complex forms. Its could be neither. It could be an infinite number of things. Either way, any analogy would be poor given that we don't have other universes to make comparisons.
 
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First of allits not an argument from ignorance, its funny how you pick and choose what you respond to. What I mean by my posts is that is enough rational evidence for belief in Christianity then there is for atheism (i know , inkw, atheism isnt a belief system, please dont also use that tired old argument to make excuses for being intellectually lazy), and again your what u mean by solid evidence is the good ole tired scientism argument.
I once read a book on statistics and tests done on atheists, I didnt know what asperger
syndrome was so it didnt make much sense to me. it basically said that atheists score extremely high on the asperger syndrom quotient test and the symptons for that disorder is inability to get along socially, irrationally skeptical among other things.
Plus my post about a miracle that happened to my grandfather that was predicted by his aunt 2 days before it happened to him is pretty strong evidence (maybe not for a scientism adherent like you but for most people yes). Again scientism is the proof that only the science is good enough to prove that something is true. If everyone followed your philosophy my friend than science in the west would not have exploded over the east the way it did. This was almost exclusively due to the christian worldview.
Needham was an atheist that studied this area exstensively and (against his own worldview) came tothe conclusion that because they had the christian world view that was why the west past the east in scientific discoveries.

To say that the 2 dont mix means you havent really done your homework my friend. We believe in a God that is love, but alsoin one that with reason and rationale as well.



Vox Popoli: Atheism and Asperger's syndrome

Monday, July 27, 2009

Atheism and Asperger's syndrome

This English study of people with Asperger's syndrome practically describes Sam Harris's Reason Project:
The suggestion is that people with Asperger's syndrome do have difficulties with theory of mind: unlike those of us with neurotypical brains, they lack the ability to jump straight to the right decision, almost as a matter of instinct. What they seem to do instead is to work out other people's beliefs and intentions by means of logical reasoning. As Professor Frith told me, this could easily explain some of the social awkwardness of people with Asperger's.
Now, there's nothing wrong with either logic or people with Asperger's syndrome. But this study does help explain the exasperating inability of atheists, particularly militant atheists such as the New Atheists, to understand the beliefs and intentions of the neurotypical religious majority of the people on the planet.

The fact that a scientific non-entity such as Harris would think to publicly question the ability of a scientist, whose scientific credentials are impeccable, to direct the National Institutes of Health on the sole basis of his unexceptional religious beliefs suggests the real possibility of a link between his atheism and a material brain handicap. Ironically, the theory of atheism as the manifestation of a physical phenomenon fits very well with Harris's own neuroscientific perspective.

It also helps explain the observable gap between the average atheist's reliance on logic and his ability to make competent use of it.

Again your disneyland statement had nothing to do with my father analogy.





Nomarga, thank you very much for saying that your post was not meant to be an insult, that is very courtious of you. My answer to your post is also not meant to be an insult, but these kinds of studies do shine a nice light on why alot of atheists are the way they are:).Its almost like the words infinite regression of arguing is a part of their life.
God bless
 
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