Mary cannot be Queen. (2)

[AveMaria_45]

I studied this. The queen was always the mother of the king, like Bethsheeba. Mary is the mother of our king so she is queen.

 

[Zeek]

I studied this. The queen was always the mother of the king, like Bethsheeba. Mary is the mother of our king so she is queen.

Hello Ave, I appreciate your enthusiasm, and I'm not trying to be patronizing. Is that really substance enough for you to believe such a thing? It sounds more like a doctrine you have been taught, but have not really looked into...no one but G-d reigns and rules in Heaven...honestly, check out Isaiah chapters 41-46...here is a taster.

Isaiah 45:18For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
“I am the LORD, and there is none else.

There is no one even remotely like the L-rd, and certainly no fictional Queen of Heaven.

 

[AveMaria_45]

Isn't Bethsheeba the queen and her son David the king? That's in the Bible.

I have links to study material that has all the scriptures but it won't let me make a link right now.

 

[AveMaria_45]

Here is the course I am studying, but I can't make a link.


Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God

Course Description

The Mother of Jesus is mentioned only about a dozen times in the New Testament. So why is Mary so important to Catholic faith and devotion?

As we’ll see in this in-depth study, Mary is a key gateway into salvation history. The Bible portrays Mary as the all-holy one who gave the Word flesh, the Mother of God, and the spiritual mother of all who live by faith in her Son.

We begin by learning how to read the Old Testament the way Jesus taught the Apostles to read it - as containing “types” that foreshadow and prepare His coming in the New Testament. Ranging widely through the Old Testament, we’ll explore the essential biblical “types” of Mary. We’ll see how she is depicted as the new Eve, the new Ark of the Covenant, and the new Queen Mother of the Kingdom of God. We’ll see how at critical junctures in salvation history, the figure of Mary is foreshadowed and anticipated.

We also explore the biblical basis for key Catholic doctrines and dogmas regarding Mary - her Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity and Assumption into heaven.

Course Registration

Courses are free! But we do ask that you register. You will be prompted for your E-mail Address and directed to a page where you will be asked for your Name, E-mail Address, Address and Phone Number. This is for our informational purposes only. We will not lend or sell your contact information to anyone else. Thanks for your cooperation. Important Note: You only have to register once. Once you have registered you are registered for all the courses. Click here to register. A password is not needed and will not be given to you. Once you have registered return to this page or any of the other courses to begin studying. The lessons are listed in the column to the right.

Course Objectives:

1.To understand the biblical basis for Catholic faith and devotion to Mary.
2.To understand Mary’s pivotal role in God’s plan of salvation as that plan is presented in the Bible and Church teaching.
3.To gain new appreciation for Mary’s importance in the family of God, and be able to express that more faithfully and intelligently in prayer, devotion, and personal witness.

Course Requirements

None. However, students will get much more out of this course if they have first completed Covenant Love: Introducing the Biblical Worldview.

Course Materials

The primary text will be the Bible. Each lesson will recommend certain passages for reading and study. In addition, the instructors recommend the following book, which covers much of the material to be studied in this course: Hail Holy Queen: Mother of God in the Word of God

 

[Zeek]

Here is the course I am studying, but I can't make a link.


Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God

Course Description

The Mother of Jesus is mentioned only about a dozen times in the New Testament. So why is Mary so important to Catholic faith and devotion?

I think what follows will be instructive, and I hope it will follow biblical teaching.

As we’ll see in this in-depth study, Mary is a key gateway into salvation history. The Bible portrays Mary as the all-holy one who gave the Word flesh, the Mother of God, and the spiritual mother of all who live by faith in her Son.

That just isn't true.

Mary is not a gateway into salvation history, she was the mother of the L-rd, and as such we should honour and respect her life and her example, but she plays no part whatsoever in salvation.

Neither is she 'all holy', that would make her sinless, which she wasn't.

The title 'Mother of G-d' elevates her position to something the Bible does not teach, especially bearing in mind that Jesus who was Himself G-d, existed from all eternity, and the implications that go with the title, go a bit too far.

As for our 'spiritual mother', I am not yet sure of the teaching or the implications, so will refrain from any comment.

We begin by learning how to read the Old Testament the way Jesus taught the Apostles to read it - as containing “types” that foreshadow and prepare His coming in the New Testament.

That's good, following known types such as Jesus being the Passover Lamb, help us get an insight into the prophetic word of G-d and add emphasis and depth to what has already been revealed.

Ranging widely through the Old Testament, we’ll explore the essential biblical “types” of Mary. We’ll see how she is depicted as the new Eve, the new Ark of the Covenant, and the new Queen Mother of the Kingdom of God. We’ll see how at critical junctures in salvation history, the figure of Mary is foreshadowed and anticipated.

I don't believe any of these types referring to Mary are biblically correct, and move into the dusky realm of eisogesis (trying to fit Scripture to a doctrine)

We also explore the biblical basis for key Catholic doctrines and dogmas regarding Mary - her Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity and Assumption into heaven.

Again, I guess these are all Catholic doctrines, but are not widely accepted outside of the Catholic mind-set, and I am not denying them as a Protestant vs Catholic, but because they do not hold up against Scripture, and once again distort the Truth.


I understand that you were obviously brought up as a Catholic, and therefore have a loyalty factor to your learning, e.g. you trust those teaching you, and you probably believe that the Catholic Church has the monopoly on G-ds truth, and is the only authentic organization on earth that has the authority to present clear teaching. (they probably teach you this )

I am as yet unsure whether you merely have the transient trappings of religion, or a saving faith in the blood of Jesus, but all of us need to weigh what we are taught against the Bible and what it contains, lest we find we are inadvertently adopting practices and absorbing teachings that actually go against sound doctrine.

 

[AveMaria_45]

As we’ll see in this in-depth study, Mary is a key gateway into salvation history. The Bible portrays Mary as the all-holy one who gave the Word flesh, the Mother of God, and the spiritual mother of all who live by faith in her Son.

She did give Jesus flesh.
She is the mother of Jesus and he is God.

I do not see what is wrong

 

[Zeek]

As we’ll see in this in-depth study, Mary is a key gateway into salvation history.

We will see what is meant by 'key gateway'...all I know is that Mary has no part to play in the salvation of men and women, it is only through Jesus that a person can gain eternal life.

The Bible portrays Mary as the all-holy one who gave the Word flesh

Just where is Mary portrayed as the all-holy one, I would like to see a reference in the Bible?

She did give Jesus flesh.

Amen, I believe Jesus bore in His physical body certain traits that would be similarly found in his mother, and I absolutely believe that we should take note of the pivotal role she played in bring up Jesus as her son, and later knowing Him as her Messiah.

She is the mother of Jesus and he is God.

That too I have no problem with...but when one starts to say Mary is the Mother of G-d...it begins to elevate her role, even though the words are innocent enough, and for all intents and purposes true, yet the weight behind the expression 'Mother of G-d' carries with it something that is often taken too far. IMO

I do not see what is wrong

Look at Scripture for yourself, and ask G-d to guide you and give you understanding...see if what you are taught lines up with what Scripture says, or does it go beyond what is meant...just be honest and open in your approach...and no teacher worth their salt should object to you wanting to confirm what they are teaching you.

 

[laconicstudent]

As we’ll see in this in-depth study, Mary is a key gateway into salvation history. The Bible portrays Mary as the all-holy one who gave the Word flesh, the Mother of God, and the spiritual mother of all who live by faith in her Son.

She did give Jesus flesh.
She is the mother of Jesus and he is God.

I do not see what is wrong

I'd rather like to get this icon, actually. Its sold by the St. John Chrysostomos Greek Orthodox Monastery in Wisconsin.

Apolytikion in the Third Tone
As a life-giving fount, thou didst conceive the Dew that is transcendent in essence,
O Virgin Maid, and thou hast welled forth for our sakes the nectar of joy eternal,
which doth pour forth from thy fount with the water that springeth up
unto everlasting life in unending and mighty streams;
wherein, taking delight, we all cry out:
Rejoice, O thou Spring of life for all men.





​

 

[Thekla]

Terms like "all-holy" are relative terms; in the case of the Theotokos, relative to the human race.

 

[AveMaria_45]

I wish I could copy and paste my book but its a book. lol

I went to wiki and it says, The first Mariological definition and basis for the title of Mary Queen of Heaven developed at the Council of Ephesus, where Mary was defined to be the Mother of God. The Council fathers specifically approved this version against the opinion, that Mary is "only" the mother of Jesus. Nobody had participated in the life of her son more, than Mary, who gave birth to the Son of God.[15]

I'm not sure what a couple of those things mean, but that Council of Ephesus was in the year 431. And protestants are only a few hundred years old, right? So how can history say she is not queen of heaven?

 

[laconicstudent]

I wish I could copy and paste my book but its a book. lol

I went to wiki and it says, The first Mariological definition and basis for the title of Mary Queen of Heaven developed at the Council of Ephesus, where Mary was defined to be the Mother of God. The Council fathers specifically approved this version against the opinion, that Mary is "only" the mother of Jesus. Nobody had participated in the life of her son more, than Mary, who gave birth to the Son of God.[15]

I'm not sure what a couple of those things mean, but that Council of Ephesus was in the year 431. And protestants are only a few hundred years old, right? So how can history say she is not queen of heaven?

Who knows? But weird novel doctrines, or even old ones previously anathematized, are fairly common around General Theology....

 

[Zeek]

I wish I could copy and paste my book but its a book. lol

You might find a copy of your book available online Ave, then you could copy and paste.

I went to wiki and it says, The first Mariological definition and basis for the title of Mary Queen of Heaven developed at the Council of Ephesus, where Mary was defined to be the Mother of God. The Council fathers specifically approved this version against the opinion, that Mary is "only" the mother of Jesus. Nobody had participated in the life of her son more, than Mary, who gave birth to the Son of God.[15]

Well Wiki is pretty weak on many issues so be a bit careful of any information you digest....best to always double check as people add some pretty random information.

The Council Fathers may have a degree of authority and be learned men, but if their theology does not line up with biblical teaching, then it is merely man-made theology, based on traditions that are fragile at best and misleading at worst....Jesus, Paul and the Apostles taught specifically about safe-guarding the Truth of their teachings and doctrines, and warned that after they died, people would try and subvert the Gospel and distort the teachings.

Acts 20:27 “For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. 28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 “Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Or consider this message, where Paul is exhorting the Brethren in Galatia to remain true and faithful to the Gospel that he and his leaders have preached to them....he goes so far as to say that even if an Angel appears to them and yet speaks words that don't line up with what they have received....not to believe them. Now consider that an Angel is even more convincing and believable than even a Church Father...so we must always consider what anyone teaches in the light of Scripture.

Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

Mary is more than 'only' the mother of Jesus, which I think belittles the enormous privilege and blessing that was given to her, in that our Heavenly Father considered her above all other women to bear His Son, and to bring Him up in the way of truth.

I'm not sure what a couple of those things mean, but that Council of Ephesus was in the year 431. And protestants are only a few hundred years old, right? So how can history say she is not queen of heaven?

Well Martin Luther is largely credited with causing a breaking away from traditional Catholic teaching, and the authority of Rome, when on October 31st he nailed his 95 Theses of Contention on the Church door at Wittenberg...So one could say non-Catholics have thrived for around 500 years...also it is fair to say that Catholicism has undergone numerous changes, and wasn't itself properly formulated until the Council of Trent countered this Schism between 1545-1563 under four different Popes.

Ultimately it is not History or Tradition that speaks to us of the position of Mary, but what is found in Scripture and sound doctrine, and the idea of her being Queen of Heaven is quite foreign to biblical teaching, although Revelations 12:1 will probably get a mention by some, but closer study will reveal it is talking about Israel, and not Mary.

 

[1611AV]

Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior. She is no Queen. Furthermore, she was only the mother of Jesus according to the flesh.

Luke Chapter 1:46-49

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

 

[Montalban]

Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior. She is no Queen. Furthermore, she was only the mother of Jesus according to the flesh.

Luke Chapter 1:46-49

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

I don't know of any queens that didn't need a saviour. It didn't make them less a queen

 

[AveMaria_45]

I can paste links now. Here is my lesson about the queen.

1. To see the importance of the Queen Mother in the Davidic kingdom of the Old Testament.
2. To understand the duties and privileges that came with the position of Queen Mother.
3. To see how Mary fills the position of Queen Mother in the kingdom of Christ.



Lesson Outline:

1. Mothers and Sons
   1. A Mother’s Advice
   2. The Mother as Teacher
2. The Mother of the Queen
   1. Solomon Bows to his Mother
   2. The Place of the Gebirah
   3. She Who Is to Give Birth
3. Kingdom of the Son of David
   1. David’s Kingdom and Christ’s
   2. Mother of the King of Kings
   3. The Infant Jesus Holds Court
   4. Queen of Heaven
4. Discussion Questions

(Back to the Top)​

I. Mothers and Sons

A. A Mother’s Advice


“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne” (see Revelation 12:1, 12:5).

This strange and beautiful vision from Revelation is the image millions of Christians across the world see when they think of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

But what exactly does it mean? It seems literally to depict Christ as a newborn King, destined to rule on a throne. Why, however, is the woman depicted as a heavenly Queen, crowned with stars and arrayed in glory.
The answer is in a long tradition that runs right through the Old Testament into the New.


The image of Mary in glory “clothed with the sun” is yet another way the New Testament writers tell us the truth about who Jesus Christ is. But to understand what Revelation reveals, we need to go hundreds of years back into the Old Testament.

In fact, a good place to start is right at the end of the book of Proverbs.
The Bible tells us only one thing about a certain King Lemuel: that he got some very good advice.
“Open your mouth in behalf of the dumb,
and for the rights of the destitute;
Open your mouth, decree what is just,
defend the needy and poor!” (see Proverbs 31:9).

Now, a king always has people trying to tell him what he should do. Usually the advice is aimed at creating some benefit for the adviser. Often what sounds like advice is just flattery.

But here is someone advising the king to take care of the poor and the meek - the people who have no other defense. Who could speak freely enough to the king to give him that kind of advice?

The first verse of King Lemuel’s chapter in Proverbs gives us the answer: “The words of Lemuel, king of Massa. The advice which his mother gave him” (see Proverbs 31:1).

Only the king’s own mother could speak to him that way. As a king, he might be her ruler, but by the law of nature he was still her son.
This chapter is full of the kind of advice any good mother would give to her son: don’t fall in with loose women, don’t drink too much, and above all find a good wife.

But because the son happens to be a king, his mother also has to remind him of his duties as a ruler. He must be the voice of the defenseless, a power for the powerless. His kingdom must be for the poor and the meek.
A flattering courtier could never say things like that to a king. It’s not surprising, then, that the queen mother in Near Eastern kingdoms was traditionally looked on as the friend of the poor, the intercessor between the people and the king.

And when we see that the book of Proverbs ends with a queen mother’s advice, we know how important the inspired writers considered the wisdom of the queen mother. A ruler who had Proverbs read to him would be left with the queen mother’s words ringing in his ears.

B. The Mother as Teacher

The mother’s authority over her children - even if they happen to be kings - is part of nature. Lemuel is never mentioned anywhere else in Scripture. One ancient Jewish tradition, however, said that Lemuel was a pseudonym for the great Solomon himself, the king whose name is still synonymous with wisdom.

Solomon was the second son of David and Bathsheba. Their first son had died shortly after birth - a judgment on David for his adultery with Bathsheba, who had been the wife of one of David’s most trusted officers until David sent him off on a suicide mission (see 2 Samuel 11).

As David’s heir, Solomon was the prototypical Son of David, inheriting all those promises of a glorious kingdom that God had made for David’s line (see 2 Samuel 7:8-16).

He had one other famous gift: the gift of wisdom. But he still listened to his mother’s advice.

 

[1611AV]

I don't know of any queens that didn't need a saviour. It didn't make them less a queen

Agree, but those are earthly Queens. This one is claimed to be the Queen of Heaven. Are not Queens married to Kings? Is Joseph also made King of Heaven? Because mary calls Joseph the Father of Jesus. Joseph is also in lineage of King David.

Will Mary reign as Queen on Earth in the millenium? You would think the Bible would announce such a Revelation as the Queen of Heaven. Oh wait it does!

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44:18
But since we left off to burn incense to the QUEEN of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

Uh Oh, not good. Idol worship.

 

[AveMaria_45]

Are not Queens married to Kings?

Not for Jews. Their queens was the kings mother. Read the lesson I posted.

 

[Zeek]

I have been thinking about the whole idea of Mary being called the Queen of Heaven, and this is what I believe.

Revelation 12 is not talking about Mary, but about spiritual Israel.

Jesus has a Heavenly Kingdom, He came to earth to become the sacrifice for our sins, but returned to the realm of Heaven, and has always ruled in Heaven, and there has never been a Queen of Heaven of any sort.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Mary has been given the title of Mother of G-d by Catholic teaching, which as I mentioned before has the implication that she is instrumental in guiding and helping G-d/Jesus, and therefore makes the doctrine of her being Queen of Heaven more palatable....but it is erroneous, and deflects from the glory that belongs to G-d alone...if you read your Bible you can see if what I am saying corresponds to what is contained in its pages...but if people don't read their Bibles, and simply rely on any teaching, and can therefore be persuaded about anything....and some men and women can be very persuasive with their words and their reasoning....which is why the Bible is a safe-guard against false doctrine.

 

[AveMaria_45]

you: Mary has been given the title of Mother of G-d by Catholic teaching

not true. you just saw that eastern ortho laconicstudent say that they believe it too. and you read that council that said it was true thousands of years ago. and my lesson that i pasted talks about all old testament not revelations. why do you keep ignoring the information?

 

[Zeek]

you: Mary has been given the title of Mother of G-d by Catholic teaching

not true. you just saw that eastern ortho laconicstudent say that they believe it too. and you read that council that said it was true thousands of years ago. and my lesson that i pasted talks about all old testament not revelations. why do you keep ignoring the information?

Sorry you think that way.

I don't reckon I have a monopoly on ignoring information....but I wasn't trying to ignore what you posted in your lesson, and have read it through a couple of times....I don't know exactly what you are expecting me to comment on...that Jewish kings often had their mothers called Queen?

You can't reasonably expect that to be some sort of proof that therefore because Jesus is called our King, Mary must be our Queen....that sort of rationale is merely based on human reasoning and not biblical evidence.

By the way 'Mary as Queen of Heaven' IS a title bestowed on her erroneously through Catholic doctinal teaching...it is not found in the Bible, and was never taught or intimated in the Apostles teaching despite some convoluted attempts to make it appear so.