Mary cannot be Queen. (2)

[Montalban]

Ok...forgive my presumption brother, it is just difficult to follow your thinking and your questions from time to time, and speaking in threads can be difficult because you can't look into a persons eyes.

Absolutely understood

You could have made my work easier by indulging me and giving me an apt reply to my questions, even if you had already answered similar things to someone else....so now I will run off and read exactly what has been said, and then come back later to continue the discussion. In Messiah. Zazal.

I just don't like having to answer the same question over and over again.

 

[Zeek]

How many posts do I have to complete before I can use the multi-quote feature, as it is a pain having to cut and paste the replies you are answering?

You presume wrong.

I am a bit presumptious at times, but have already apologised.

Originally Posted by Zazal

You did not reply to my last two questions, so in the fond hope that you might, here they are again:-

1.Are you born again, or are you uncertain of your standing?
​

I'd already answered this when Sunlover asked me, then StandingUp.

I don't know what my status is

Ok, then do you think the Bible makes it clear that you should know your status, or is it unimportant?

Originally Posted by Zazal
2.How do you know you will one day be accepted by G-d?

By following the way

So you have no real assurance of your salvation, you just hope you live up to scratch and don't fall at the final hurdle?

Originally Posted by Zazal

I have never said or implied that sin doesn't matter after you are saved, that is entirely down to your own reasoning....
​

You've not shown how it does matter. You're not any less saved

Well we are all in this race and should run it to the best of our ability and the grace that has been given to each of us according to G-ds will and His purposes...if a person squanders their inheritance, I believe they will suffer loss, and G-ds Holy Fire will burn up many of their works like wood, hay and stubble, and they will live lives unworthy of their calling 1Cor 3:15...it is this that Paul strongly addresses a number of times, and encourages the Brethren to run the race set before them, and not to shirk from their calling, reminding them of what it cost the L-rd to bring many sons to Glory.

Originally Posted by Zazal
what on earth do you imagine salvation is?

The whole thing might be described by the analogy that I am an athlete in training. I do spiritual exercises as part of my training, avoiding certain foods perhaps as part of a special diet, etc.

Do you see any difference between working out your salvation through good works and maintaining your salvation through good works?

Perhaps I believe that 'being saved' is at the end of the game, not half way through

You don't seem very sure....what about the idea that we were saved when we believed in Jesus, we are saved at this present time, and we will be saved when we leave this mortal body?
Do you therefore think it is wrong for a person to say/or consider they are saved...according to what Scripture demonstrates...is that presumptious?

Originally Posted by Zazal

Do you think the people that were added to the assembly of Believers in the first few chapters of Acts were not saved....Peter preached, "be saved from this corrupt generation" and thousands responded.
​

And did they then stop, or did Paul for instance urge them to unity, etc.? Where's Paul write to a church and say "You're saved, that's all from me! Bye!"

No that is just you insisting on inserting your own mis-understanding...He called them saved, and urged them to produce fruit that demonstrated they were saved, and to press onward...not to consider they could now sit on their rumps for the rest of their lives, waving their free entry to Heaven ticket in the air....if their faith wasn't evidenced, it was considered dead.

1 Cor 25:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

What is the effect of sin, after you're saved? That might help you think about whether it matters or not. I've been asking a bit about if it makes you any less saved, but you don't seem to have an answer for that... or perhaps you missed it

Sorry I probably missed it, I try and take great care to answer as fully as I can. Your wording doesn't make it easy to understand sometimes...is English your first language?

Sin can be devastating in a Believers life, if they constantly succumb to it...they will be unhappy, a faithless witness and in many cases no different to those that do not know Messiah.

However I believe that by the grace of G-d, all of us 'saved sinners' can learn to be overcomers, and true disciples, if we live by the Spirit, and don't keep walking in the flesh....its a choice of life or death.

You can't be 'less saved'...but your salvation would be open to question if no change was evident in you...G-d looks at the hearts, nobody can pull the wool over His eyes.

Originally Posted by Zazal

If a person sets out to deliberately sin because he thinks he has been saved, and nothing can touch him....he would be aptly demonstrating that he has not been saved,
​

Do you think that anything you do can make you less saved? So you've never deliberately sinned? All the sins you've done since being sinned are accidental? How do you take this out of the back of your mind when sinning, when surely you must know nothing can touch you.

Where does the Bible make this distinction, anyway?

No..nothing can make you 'less saved', you're either 'born again' or you are not....but there are many that claim to be, but their fruit tell a different story.

Yes to my shame I have deliberately sinned sometimes...I have eventually been distraught about it, and deeply repented.

The power of the blood of Jesus is such, that I know I have been forgiven, and my conscience is clear...He remembers them no more, and places them as far as East is from West...I remember them and the shame I felt...but then I remember His forgiveness and the reality of being forgiven and restored.

I would be an absolute idiot if I thought I could ever hide anything from G-d...actually I have been in that ridiculous position.... but although I believe once a person is saved they are saved, I have never deemed it a license to do what you like.

I am not sure there is a distinction in the New Covenant...sin is sin. I look at some of the great figures of the Bible, and even with David, whom G-d called 'a man after my own heart' there was gross pre-meditated sin, including adultery and murder....there were consequences, but He demonstrated his contrition, and understood the full extent of G-ds forgiveness towards him.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I answered your question on born again.

 

[Zeek]

To be born again is regeneration through Baptism.
We are born into Christ's death and resurrection.

Being born again does not mean we pronounce we believe, and we have completed our tasks.

Is this where you are going?

One is not regenerated through Baptism...Baptism is an outward sign of an inward work of the Holy Spirit.

No one has said being born again means we have completed or tasks...it just means acknowledging that Jesus has redeemed you by His blood...or is even this to difficult to say?

It was kinda where I was headed....I was just trying to find out why all the hang-ups about stating you are saved, or born-again...it is as if one dare not say such a thing, whereas the Bible is very clear, that when people turned to Jesus and repented and believed...they were saved.

 

[Montalban]

I am a bit presumptious at times, but have already apologised.

I accept that there's nothing to apologise about

Ok, then do you think the Bible makes it clear that you should know your status, or is it unimportant?

I don't believe it does.

We can join with the community of God, by following the way, but we can make a choice to leave that, and God will respect that choice.

For you, it's like once you sign on then there's no getting out

So you have no real assurance of your salvation, you just hope you live up to scratch and don't fall at the final hurdle?

I would also hope that God would see that I've spent a life in struggle and he accepts that I tried. I have trust in God, however I accept that I can fail.

Well we are all in this race and should run it to the best of our ability and the grace that has been given to each of us according to G-ds will and His purposes...if a person squanders their inheritance, I believe they will suffer loss, and G-ds Holy Fire will burn up many of their works like wood, hay and stubble, and they will live lives unworthy of their calling 1Cor 3:15...it is this that Paul strongly addresses a number of times, and encourages the Brethren to run the race set before them, and not to shirk from their calling, reminding them of what it cost the L-rd to bring many sons to Glory.

The fact that Paul calls people to look out for each other means, I think, that it matters.

If it were a 'natural' state that once we're saved we would do Godly works, then he wouldn't ask us to do them, because it would come naturally.

He wouldn't need to be ministering to those already saved as he does, by urging them to unity.

Do you see any difference between working out your salvation through good works and maintaining your salvation through good works?

I see no split between faith and works. We must have both

You don't seem very sure....what about the idea that we were saved when we believed in Jesus,

James says that even the demons fear and tremble.

we are saved at this present time, and we will be saved when we leave this mortal body?

Because God gives us a choice. I think it's daily, I think it's even more regular than that. Everything I do is about choosing God, or rejecting God.

Do you therefore think it is wrong for a person to say/or consider they are saved...according to what Scripture demonstrates...is that presumptious?

That's assuming that they're always be so.

No that is just you insisting on inserting your own mis-understanding...He called them saved, and urged them to produce fruit that demonstrated they were saved, and to press onward...not to consider they could now sit on their rumps for the rest of their lives, waving their free entry to Heaven ticket in the air....if their faith wasn't evidenced, it was considered dead.

Why would he call them to do works that should come automatically from being in a state of grace?

1 Cor 25:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. [/COLOR]

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

This shows to me that they can 'leave'

Sorry I probably missed it, I try and take great care to answer as fully as I can. Your wording doesn't make it easy to understand sometimes...is English your first language?

English is my first language

Sin can be devastating in a Believers life,

I keep asking 'how?' when it doesn't affect your relationship to God anymore, insofar as you don't become less saved because of it.

However I believe that by the grace of G-d, all of us 'saved sinners' can learn to be overcomers, and true disciples, if we live by the Spirit, and don't keep walking in the flesh....its a choice of life or death.

I agree with this, but don't see how it sits in your ideology given the next statement...

You can't be 'less saved'...but your salvation would be open to question if no change was evident in you...G-d looks at the hearts, nobody can pull the wool over His eyes.

I apologise for ending here as I've run out of time

 

[Zeek]

We can join with the community of God, by following the way, but we can make a choice to leave that, and God will respect that choice.

For you, it's like once you sign on then there's no getting out

If one has been translated from the Kingdom of Darkness, into the Kingdom of Light, a transformation has occured, and a person can never be the same again...but there is always a choice.

I would also hope that God would see that I've spent a life in struggle and he accepts that I tried. I have trust in God, however I accept that I can fail.

So who maintains your state of salvation...you and your attempt at 'good works' or Messiah Jesus who died for you?...Eph 2:8-10

If it were a 'natural' state that once we're saved we would do Godly works, then he wouldn't ask us to do them, because it would come naturally.

But Paul points out in Romans 7 and 8 that there is a war going on inside him...and now that we are alive to the Spirit of G-d, does not mean we automatically choose to be led by the Spirit, because our sinful flesh nature is still active and wants its way in our life....that is why we always have a choice to walk either in the flesh or the Spirit....Paul exhorts us to consider our flesh-man dead...crucified with Messiah, so that it is no longer we that live, but Messiah in us.

If a Believer does not grasp this elementary teaching, they will struggle in their own strength to produce good works, and always try to be good enough, rather than knowing the price has been paid, and the axe has been laid to the root, and that they are for all intents and purposes DEAD.
It is only when we die, that we can produce fruit.

I've just concentrated on one point really...especially as I don't have the time to drag my quotes down...no one has yet explained how I can use multple quotes.

 

[Montalban]

If one has been translated from the Kingdom of Darkness, into the Kingdom of Light, a transformation has occured, and a person can never be the same again...but there is always a choice.

But for you, once the choice is made, that's it.

So who maintains your state of salvation...

As with an athlete unless he keeps training, he loses condition. God's my coach. He's given me a course to follow

you and your attempt at 'good works' or Messiah Jesus who died for you?...Eph 2:8-10

Without good works, faith is dead

But Paul points out in Romans 7 and 8 that there is a war going on inside him...and now that we are alive to the Spirit of G-d, does not mean we automatically choose to be led by the Spirit, because our sinful flesh nature is still active and wants its way in our life....that is why we always have a choice to walk either in the flesh or the Spirit....Paul exhorts us to consider our flesh-man dead...crucified with Messiah, so that it is no longer we that live, but Messiah in us.

This makes no sense in your belief (as you've stated) because the 'internal war' has no consequences once you're saved - as you don't believe you can be un-saved. (unless I've miss-read this of your posts)

If a Believer does not grasp this elementary teaching, they will struggle in their own strength to produce good works, and always try to be good enough, rather than knowing the price has been paid, and the axe has been laid to the root, and that they are for all intents and purposes DEAD.
It is only when we die, that we can produce fruit.

Salvation is triumph over death

I've just concentrated on one point really...especially as I don't have the time to drag my quotes down...no one has yet explained how I can use multple quotes.

Okay

 

[Zeek]

But for you, once the choice is made, that's it.



As with an athlete unless he keeps training, he loses condition. God's my coach. He's given me a course to follow

Without good works, faith is dead

This makes no sense in your belief (as you've stated) because the 'internal war' has no consequences once you're saved - as you don't believe you can be un-saved. (unless I've miss-read this of your posts)

Salvation is triumph over death

Okay

I'm sorry Montalban, I just can't follow your arguments or your reasoning so I will have to leave it there...all the best. Zazal

 

[Montalban]

If you can show me how your relationship with God changes after you've been saved, that would be great.

Or, what changes it.

 

[Zeek]

If you can show me how your relationship with God changes after you've been saved, that would be great.

Or, what changes it.

Well again I am unsure what you require of me....one doesn't have a relationship with G-d until a person is born again/saved...it is that place where a person believes that Jesus died for Him, to save him from his sins and give the free gift of eternal life....For a person to be saved, he must exercise faith...that faith is not considered a work of his own, but the grace of G-d that gave him the faith to believe....so that everyone that is born again, knows that they are saved...because they are changed (open to the things of the Spirit...have the desire to seek after godly pursuits and abhor evil), and they have a relationship with G-d.

I hope that answers your question....by the way when were you 'born again'...I'm not asking when you became an Eastern Orthodox believer...but when did you actually believe on the L-rd Jesus, and know forgiveness for your sins?

 

[Montalban]

After you're saved, does your relationship with God change any further?

Does it lessen, or increase?

If so, what causes this, given that you're already influenced by God's grace.

 

[WarriorAngel]

One is not regenerated through Baptism...Baptism is an outward sign of an inward work of the Holy Spirit.

No one has said being born again means we have completed or tasks...it just means acknowledging that Jesus has redeemed you by His blood...or is even this to difficult to say?

It was kinda where I was headed....I was just trying to find out why all the hang-ups about stating you are saved, or born-again...it is as if one dare not say such a thing, whereas the Bible is very clear, that when people turned to Jesus and repented and believed...they were saved.

John 3:5
Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Baptism is the water we may enter into Heaven by and how we are born again.

They believed and whole households were baptized. Households included slaves as well as babies.
It was then that they were born again into the resurrection of life.

Romans 6:4
For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.


If someone believes but are not born again [which is a rebirth only spiritually] through Baptism, they cannot enter Heaven. Because it is by Baptism we walk in the newness of life....and we share in His resurrection.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.


Being Baptized, I am born again into the newness of life which is God.
BUT - what i do in my lifetime with [or in lieu of] - the gift of God's graces - determines my salvation.

 

[Zeek]

After you're saved, does your relationship with God change any further?

Does it lessen, or increase?

If so, what causes this, given that you're already influenced by God's grace.

I will try and answer this when you have kindly answered my questions to you.

 

[Zeek]

John 3:5
Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Baptism is the water we may enter into Heaven by and how we are born again.

They believed and whole households were baptized. Households included slaves as well as babies.
It was then that they were born again into the resurrection of life.

Romans 6:4
For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.


If someone believes but are not born again [which is a rebirth only spiritually] through Baptism, they cannot enter Heaven. Because it is by Baptism we walk in the newness of life....and we share in His resurrection.

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit.


Being Baptized, I am born again into the newness of life which is God.
BUT - what i do in my lifetime with [or in lieu of] - the gift of God's graces - determines my salvation.

I have to say that you are wrong on both accounts.

Baptism does not save....it is a sign of what has occured through being born again.

Our works do not save us...it is our faith in Jesus....preaching a works based salvation is not biblical....works demonstrate that G-d is at work in us...they accompany salvation, not provide salvation.

References supplied in copious amounts if so desired.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have to say that you are wrong on both accounts.

Baptism does not save....it is a sign of what has occured through being born again.

Our works do not save us...it is our faith in Jesus....preaching a works based salvation is not biblical....works demonstrate that G-d is at work in us...they accompany salvation, not provide salvation.

References supplied in copious amounts if so desired.

So often people misunderstand what the scriptures mean that say 'you are not saved by works...'
Essentially, even atheists do works, but it wont save them unless they believed in God.

It is also true that not doing work will garner any favors with God.
He will separate the goats and sheep because those who did nothing for the least - did nothing for Him.

Thats crystal clear.

Being born again - the way you are suggesting - is not biblical per say. [quote it, please]
But i quoted a succinct scripture of John that states by 'water and the Holy Ghost' we are born again.

Water - is life in every way... but also for that which belongs to the Spirit.

 

[Montalban]

I will try and answer this when you have kindly answered my questions to you.

I'm not aware of not answering any of your questions to me

 

[Zeek]

I'm not aware of not answering any of your questions to me

Here it is.only one actually....took me 5 seconds to go back one post and find it.

By the way when were you 'born again'...I'm not asking when you became an Eastern Orthodox believer...but when did you actually believe on the L-rd Jesus, and know forgiveness for your sins?

 

[Zeek]

So often people misunderstand what the scriptures mean that say 'you are not saved by works...'
Essentially, even atheists do works, but it wont save them unless they believed in God.

It is also true that not doing work will garner any favors with God.
He will separate the goats and sheep because those who did nothing for the least - did nothing for Him.

Thats crystal clear.

Being born again - the way you are suggesting - is not biblical per say. [quote it, please]
But i quoted a succinct scripture of John that states by 'water and the Holy Ghost' we are born again.

Water - is life in every way... but also for that which belongs to the Spirit.

In big hurry...but here is a quick reply.

1. I think I understand well enough that my salvation is not works based....but Jesus loved me even when I was His enemy, and died that I might live....if I believed on Him....everything had been done for me.

2. The Scripture you quoted in John...some believe talks of the water that comes when you are born from your mothers womb....e.g. her waters break....but you have to see that although we should all be baptised, and it should really be when we are at an age to know what we are doing (see Philip and the Eunuch)...baptism does not save us, our faith in what Jesus accomplished for us, saves us....that is elementary.

The few Scriptures that seem to link baptism to salvation must be weighed against the many more that demonstrate the our faith saves us.

The Scripture about being born again is found in John 3:3...see also 1Peter 1:23.

 

[Montalban]

Here it is.only one actually....took me 5 seconds to go back one post and find it.

I don't know. I first found out about Jesus in bible-study when I was about 6

 

[WarriorAngel]

In big hurry...but here is a quick reply.

1. I think I understand well enough that my salvation is not works based....but Jesus loved me even when I was His enemy, and died that I might live....if I believed on Him....everything had been done for me.

He gave us the grace to cooperate with or not.

It says in scriptures we are to work out our salvation - we are to work out our salvation - WE are to WORK out our salvation....
with fear and trembling.
Trembling - yes actual fear of losing the Lord... which means we can go to hell for our lacking as the lazy servant did.

I am not being mean when i ask - should that and the Epistle of St James be torn out of the scriptures?

That verse tells us what exactly?
Answer: THAT WE must work out our salvation and although Christ made it possible with His graces and His WORK which opened up Heaven - does not negate our own part in it.

Repeating - we MUST work out our own salvation - through the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

2. The Scripture you quoted in John...some believe talks of the water that comes when you are born from your mothers womb....e.g. her waters break....but you have to see that although we should all be baptised, and it should really be when we are at an age to know what we are doing (see Philip and the Eunuch)...baptism does not save us, our faith in what Jesus accomplished for us, saves us....that is elementary.

DO you see that you are quoting modern thinkers?
Some say...?

The Church has always taught it is through Baptism that we are born again.

Later - i shall have to find early fathers writings.

Whole households include babies and children...
WHOLE HOUSEHOLDS included babies.

The Epistle says - Baptism is for our children and children from far off...

The few Scriptures that seem to link baptism to salvation must be weighed against the many more that demonstrate the our faith saves us.

The Scripture about being born again is found in John 3:3...see also 1Peter 1:23.

Faith is only relative to what we do with it.

FIRST and foremost - remember the scripture that clearly tells us we are buried in Christ's death thru Baptism?

DO you recall that?

Ok then... now reread the scripture of Peter and let's see he is repeating Baptism and not our words only...and take it in a whole.

Peter 1
[21] Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God. [22] Purifying your souls in the obedience of charity, with a brotherly love, from a sincere heart love one another earnestly: [23] Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever. [24] For all flesh is as grass; and all the glory thereof as the flower of grass. The grass is withered, and the flower thereof is fallen away. [25] But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you.

CONTEXT:
We are raised up through Baptism - because we are buried in Baptism with His death and resurrection - and this is only so by the word of the MOUTH [Christ is the Word] of God.

Who liveth forever and was forever prior to living and dying as a human.

Context Zazal.

Modern thinking takes it way out of context.
Peter did not need to reteach what was already taught for them to understand again - being Baptized in the water and Holy Spirit - gives us the born again experience, because we are reborn to Christ's resurrection and not just the flesh.

Context of the whole of scriptures.