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mcpacker

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Usually when I come to know something I will attack it in order to decide if this thing is worthwhile. Last night I decided to attack my faith with logic and doing that has really messed up my faith and I now seriously doubt everything about this. I really wish I never did that but I can't ignore it. That is just how I do things. These are fundamental things I attacked.

I don't really want to say the things I 'figured out' so you are going to have to ask me about them. I wish I could go back and have never had these thoughts.

Will these things ever end or is satan going to always mess with me?

One cool thing about this is now I totally understand what it means to be "of the world"
 

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I've been down that road... maybe more than I should, since I tend to over-analyse. The thing is: almost every principle can be argued for or against with logic. If you PM me some of the things you figured out, and I'm willing to bet that I can refute them with logic too. Why? Because logic requires perspective and a source of truth. The reason why so many philosophers have disagreed over the centuries is because they use different starting points and apply sound logic from there. Everybody has their starting point, but many of them are on pretty shaky ground. Can I prove that the Bible is the ultimate starting point and source of truth? Of course not... if God could be undeniably proven to the world, faith would be unnecessary. But what I can say is that the Bible holds up remarkably well for such ancient books - even in modern times. The more you dig into it, the more the complexity of its wisdom is shown.
 
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mcpacker

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Last night after making this thread I started the logic game again except this time I attacked what I thought the other night so I will give you guys a rough outline of it.

I thought prayer was just thought and that all thought could be considered prayer but if I'm in a social setting and just start talking I will just sound crazy cause I'm not directing the conversation to anyone. When someone prays they are directing it towards God/Jesus so even though God/Jesus knows all our thoughts He knows when we are speaking to Him.

The other stuff is just ridiculous because I was questioning how God/Jesus does things and I know full well when I stand before Him everything will make sense. And besides I'm just a lowly sinful human being that could never create something out of nothing and I feel really foolish to question He that can.

Lord forgive me for I know not what I do.
 
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SharonL

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If doubt ever entered my mind - what would overwhelm me would be look at how we are made, how we function, how we see, how we hear - look at nature how it continues generation from generation, how the birds know how to survive, how to take care of their young with no one to teach them.

Where did we come from - how on earth could the big bang create us. It is overwhelming for me to understand how there are athesists and people that believe we evolved.
 
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mcpacker

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The complexity of nature is astounding. What you said Sharon is good stuff. At random times during the day my mind will just take off and go all sorts of places. I would love to be able to explain the things I see so I started writing them down to see if I can make sense of things. I'm not even sure if I could ever possibly do my visions justice by trying to explain them with words and language. I'm starting to figure out what I'm seeing but the easy way of describing it does not do it any justice. All this started happening when I tried to contemplate "stuff" before creation happened. The thought of nothing and then all of a sudden everything gives me great pleasure. This is all very abstract thoughts at the moment but the easy way to describe these things is that I'm starting to see the fullness of God but I know in this form that I am in at the moment is what is holding me back from seeing Everything and Everything is God. Very fun stuff to think about!! Whoever says a high IQ does not correlate with faith obviously does not have a high IQ even though it really is just a number used to categorize people in our stupid way of having to label things.
 
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We think that we weigh the evedence and than come to a conclusion but the truth is that everyone chooses what they believe. Beleif is a Choice.

As a Believer you have to Choose to Believe that the Bible is true no matter what evedence anyone threws at you. Than you will see that everything supports scripture because you will understand the way things really work.

as long as you submit your faith to logic you will allways loose because any demon is a thousand times more intelegent than any one of us and they can ezily deceive you. the thoughts that you don't like are not yours they are a demon making an attack on your mind. we are commanded to reject the demonic and love God with all our Heart, all our soul, all our strength, and all our mind.

with all that said.
Please do share what is on your mind and what you think you have figured out. i of corse will take the stance that the Bible is true. I can help you if you want your faith back, but if you do not want to believe i will only make you angary.

There are only 3 consepts in scripture that do not make logical sence:
The Trinity
Jesus Christ.... both 100% God and 100% man.
The virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

everything else in scripture can be understood logically
and it even logically makes sense that these three things pertaning to Gods nature can not be understood logically because logic is a device created by man. If you could understand God than God is not God at all but something you have created.

we are not desighned to understand God logically
we are ment to know Him relationally. Here is a good way to grow your faith.

Read scripture, and do not question it, just let it effect you. when you read something that catches your attention that is your heart learning what your mind cannot understand. The heart learns way faster than the mind.

But lest talk about the ideas you came up with if they hare hurting your faith. I can help debunk them.
 
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that all human thoughts are related to prayer. i beleive we give authority to God or demons with the thoughts we think, the fealings, we feel, and the things we say.

That is why demons try so hard to influence our minds and emotions. they want to turn us into miserable slaves that give them authority to do there evil deeds on earth.

But prayer is way more powerfull than peoples random or demonically inspired thoughts. because when we pray we submit out will to God and agree with Him.

thats why Jesus Christ tought us to pray

Father Your Kingdom come.
Your Will Be Done
Hear on earth
Just as it is in Heaven.:prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer::prayer:
 
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Simonline

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Usually when I come to know something I will attack it in order to decide if this thing is worthwhile. Last night I decided to attack my faith with logic and doing that has really messed up my faith and I now seriously doubt everything about this. I really wish I never did that but I can't ignore it. That is just how I do things. These are fundamental things I attacked.

I don't really want to say the things I 'figured out' so you are going to have to ask me about them. I wish I could go back and have never had these thoughts.

Will these things ever end or is satan going to always mess with me?

One cool thing about this is now I totally understand what it means to be "of the world"

The first thing that you need to know is that logic is NOT antithetical to Truth and not all human wisdom is bad, indeed logic is an integral part of truth. God created man in His own likeness (Gen1:26-27) and He also commanded that we should worship Him with our entire being (Matt.22:34-40) which includes our mind with its human intellect (logic, reason, etc.).

There is a false belief amongst many misguided Christians (especially those with a major emphasis on the Charismata (the gifts of the Spirit)) that human reason and logic are inherently opposed to Christian 'spirituality' and therefore should always be rejected in favour of 'the leading of the Spirit'. This is pure demonic deception designed to lead the guillible away from the truth and into subjective individualism ('if it makes me feel good then it must be right/true').

The truth is that whilst the unregenerate carnal mind is at enmity with God (1Cor.2:14; Jas.4:4) that should not be true of the regenerate non-carnal mind that is seeking to live in accordance with the truth (1Cor.2:6-16). Consequently, the regenerate man should be working in harmony with the indwelling Spirit of God having Divine Revelation (both from the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (2Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) and the indwelling Spirit (Rom.8)) as the foundational basis of his reasoning and logic. If his conclusions are consistent with the Divine Revelation then his reasoning is probably sound but if his conclusions contradict Divine Revelation then he needs to back-track and try again because it will invariably be his human reason and logic rather than Divine Revelation that will be flawed.

The other extreme is that human reason and logic is revered (venerated?) above and beyond Divine Revelation such that the unregenerate man believes that he has the absolute right to sit in judgement over Divine Revelation?! This is equally as demonic as it panders to humanistic arrogance (not to mention stupidity).

Both of these extremes are highly dangerous and could lead to Perdition.

One should always submit one's human reason and logic to Divine Revelation and avoid 'going it alone' as this renders one hyper-vulnerable to demonic suggestion and manipulation. It is not for nothing that Christians are encouraged to cross reference their musings with others (spiritual accountability to one more spiritually mature than oneself is key here) so that they can know whether or not they are drifting too far off the beaten path. Never forget that the strategy of the Evil One is not to befriend us as the children of God but to destroy us (1Pet.5:8-9).

Simonline.
 
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mcpacker

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I will use logic now.

The very fact that I did not share all the thoughts I had and you guys were able to debunk them sends me a very powerful message. Logic implores that these thoughts were not something new and obviously demonic in origin.

I'm trying to not let this bother me too much since everyone makes mistakes. I really don't know how I should respond to everyone.

BTW did I use the word implore correctly?

Also to be completely honest and realistic. If my faith will ever be repaired I'm going to have to find the truth outside of the Bible. I really should not have to rely on a physical object to see the truth that is all around us.
 
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mcpacker

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Here they are:

The Bible describes God as being a person. Our father. When it says in the Bible that God gets angry and happy it sounds silly to me. A being powerful enough to create everything we see and don't see has human emotions?

Since God created everything that means he created satan and sin. If He didn't create satan would that not put satan on the same level as God? Why create sin if he loves us so much? I'm fairly confident that Adam and Eve could not create such a concept without God already knowing that they would do that.

God is said to be omniscient. That means He knew everything that would happen before he created anything. So that means He already knew who would accept His love and who would not. He love us and wants to be with us and gets sad when people do not accept his love. Then those people are sent to hell and are permanently separated from Him. He already knew that these people would end up in that place so why did he create them in the first place. That seems counter productive.

Just so it is clear I am not trying to provoke a nasty argument. All I want is for someone to show me the holes in these thoughts.
 
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heymikey80

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I probably won't answer everything completely for you. It'll obviously take your own effort to integrate things back into your own life: you're not me. I can only speak what I know with the hopes and prayer it'll help.
The Bible describes God as being a person. Our father. When it says in the Bible that God gets angry and happy it sounds silly to me. A being powerful enough to create everything we see and don't see has human emotions?
Well -- are human emotions real? That is, do they represent something we can identify as actually existing? Is it a reality that some conditions should and do provoke emotional reactions in persons (not humans, particularly -- just persons, whether they're human, or spiritual creatures like angels, or God Himself)?

I tend to think God's completely capable of expressing emotions because I think emotions are a part of Personhood.
Since God created everything that means he created satan and sin. If He didn't create satan would that not put satan on the same level as God? Why create sin if he loves us so much? I'm fairly confident that Adam and Eve could not create such a concept without God already knowing that they would do that.
It must mean something's so important about introducing this thing called "sin" that it overwhelms everything evil that results. Kind of a scary thought, I think.
God is said to be omniscient. That means He knew everything that would happen before he created anything. So that means He already knew who would accept His love and who would not. He love us and wants to be with us and gets sad when people do not accept his love. Then those people are sent to hell and are permanently separated from Him. He already knew that these people would end up in that place so why did he create them in the first place. That seems counter productive.
His creation of people He would condemn must imply that salvation of everyone is not the ultimate objective of His creating people. That would kind of confirm that salvation of people is not a function of God's justice, but His mercy. It seems it's not "right" that God would give people salvation -- it's actually God being merciful, and through His own love for people who so richly don't deserve it, that He is going to do something about the salvation of some of those people.

Theologies beyond this tend to disagree how it works after that. But it seems pretty much assured, your questions do bring up some very significant, foundational answers in Christian thought, on which most Christian theologies agree.
 
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heron

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The Bible describes God as being a person. Our father. When it says in the Bible that God gets angry and happy it sounds silly to me. A being powerful enough to create everything we see and don't see has human emotions?
Name a few human emotions.

-A mother's powerful adrenaline to defend her children when she knows they are threatened.

-Outrage that injustice has been done, which does not settle until after guilt is acknowledged and recompense has been implemented.

- Fear of danger, when there is real danger.

Emotions are very chemical. When the mind perceives a need for the body to jump into action, the toxins are released that cause us to react faster.

The perception can include things being amiss, outsiders intruding and sapping resources, deception, unfair treatment... and also love and appreciation. Gratefulness. Tolerance.

Are human emotions necessarily inferior? Or are they just experience-based, for dealing with our environments?

The premises stem out of a sense of decency and fairness. Right to property. Desire for companionship.
Since God created everything that means he created satan and sin. If He didn't create satan would that not put satan on the same level as God? Why create sin if he loves us so much? I'm fairly confident that Adam and Eve could not create such a concept without God already knowing that they would do that.
Tough question.
God created beings that had the potential to make unwise and even offensive choices.

He did not cause them to make the destructive choices. But in a sense, creating the potential for evil would have opened some possibilities.

God is said to be omniscient. That means He knew everything that would happen before he created anything. So that means He already knew who would accept His love and who would not. He love us and wants to be with us and gets sad when people do not accept his love. Then those people are sent to hell and are permanently separated from Him. He already knew that these people would end up in that place so why did he create them in the first place. That seems counter productive.
I personally do not believe that God knows everything that happens in the future. That is like playing Monopoly when you know you'll get all the hotels -- no fun in that.

As you said, people say God is omniscient. It is a word used to describe God in general terms, so people understand who He is. It is not a delimiter of who He is.

We are accustomed to how computers generate probability schemes. They collect all the data, all the vectors and catalysts, and then spew out all the possible outcomes.

There are times when most of the probabilities lead toward the same result. That is how I see prophecy: God says, "This is what I see, this is how I see things heading, and if you don't do -x-, then -y- will happen."

In situations like horsemen of the apocalypse, I see that as an incredible ability to project down the road. Look at what supercomputers can do right now -- they are mere small machines, and we are using them to guesstimate when global warming will cause the world to end, and how soon overpopulation will wipe out the human race.

God can do that.
 
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mcpacker

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This is good stuff!!

In relation to omniscience would you say we are kinda living in a choose your own adventure book where the possible outcomes have already been written but it is up to the reader to choose which direction and which path he/she will take. Kinda like we are in a virtual world(which I'm starting to think is true after doing some reading on quantum mechanics and the structure of atoms) that has been prearranged with the outcomes of all choices being known beforehand but still behaves like a dynamic world where we still have the power to make choices that exhibit our gift of freewill?

I have been thinking about this a lot over the last week or so.
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

—John 15:18-20
 
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heron

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Choose your own adventure book, a colorful analogy.

People will have different opinions on this, so I don't want to say my perception of this is correct. Scriptures say that we were chosen, but it does not say that we have accepted the choice.

The verse you found is a tricky one, and I understand how it brings on questions. In comparison, 2 Peter 3:9 says "He is not wishing that any should perish."

I think that the concept of chosen trickled down from the apostles' background of being Jews, who were told through prophecy that God had chosen them to carry His name. There is also the fact that Jesus hand-picked the disciples He was speaking to.

So when we read "chosen" out of that context, we think of the longstanding tradition of Christianity instead of the moment and situation the statement was made.

When looking through the broad range of scriptures, personal choices are very evident, and people clearly made mistakes. Jonah was asked to deliver a prophecy, and ran the other way. Moses fought the idea of public speaking. Solomon married multiple foreign wives, and built temples for their religions the same generation that Yahweh's temple was completed.

Those were decisions that God would not have directed, but was able to work with. In some ways human resistance changed the course of history, but did not change the overall plan of God.

His most important voiced goal, is that we would maintain connectivity with Him. All the events of human history compiled, from a bird's eye view, are painful but would not change who He is or what His overall intent/plan is.

You will probably run into a few more verses that seem to imply God's plan supercedes human choice. When I run into questionable things, I find it helpful to use online lexicons and Strong's definitions (automated lazy methods) to see if I am hearing cultural assumptions, or the original intent of the verse.

We probably can't find the exact, precise meaning of original texts, just because language changes over time. But church teachings tend to pick up on catchy phrases and build on them until they appear real. It's important to sort them out, and find whether claims are really in the Bible or not.

(Like "God helps those who help themselves".)
 
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Simonline

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Also to be completely honest and realistic. If my faith will ever be repaired I'm going to have to find the truth outside of the Bible. I really should not have to rely on a physical object to see the truth that is all around us.

A word of caution. Whilst there are elements of the truth beyond the boundaries of Judeo-Christianity, it is Judeo-Christianity that is the main repository of the Truth for Mankind (Isa.8:20; 40:6-8; Jn.14:6; 17:17; 20:31; Acts.4:12; 1Tim.3:15(b)). YHWH has established the Judeo-Christian Scriptures (2Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) and the authentic Body of Christ as the means by which man might come to a redeeming knowledge of Him (Isa.43:10-13) and His human incarnation as the Messiah/Christ (Matt.1:23; Jn.1:1,14).

If you go looking elsewhere for the truth then don't be surprized if, in the final analysis, you don't find it (Jn.3:36; Col.2:8).

Simonline.
 
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Simonline

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Here they are:

The Bible describes God as being a person. Our father. When it says in the Bible that God gets angry and happy it sounds silly to me. A being powerful enough to create everything we see and don't see has human emotions?

No, the Bible reveals YHWH to be Personal rather than 'a Person', actually He is Tri-Personal [Father, Son and Holy Spirit]. Being Personal YHWH experiences emotions (that's part of being Personal) but the way He, as the Infinite Creator, experiences emotions is very different to how we experience emotions as finite creatures. We experience emotions because we are also personal (Gen.1:26-27). Emotions are primarily Divine, not human (He had them first, not us).

Since God created everything that means he created satan and sin. If He didn't create satan would that not put satan on the same level as God? Why create sin if he loves us so much? I'm fairly confident that Adam and Eve could not create such a concept without God already knowing that they would do that.

No. God created everything that has been created (including Lucifer ('Satan' is a title (meaning 'one who accuses') not a name)) but, being Perfect, God does not create anything less than perfect (Gen.1:31). What the creature does by way of moral actions once it has been created is a separate issue and one for which God cannot be held responsible (which is why there is going to be a Day of Judgement (Jn.5:21-30)).

Sin is not a created entity. Sin is the moral degradation, the breaking down of that which was morally perfect/innocent. Because God is Love (1Jn.4:8,16) He has given us the option of being able to choose for or against God since Love, by its very Nature, does not coerse. It was for this reason that God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen.2:15-17). Without this command Adam and Eve had no way of making a choice about whether to trust God or not (Hab.2:4; Rom.1:16-17). It was the command that gave them the opportunity to say 'No' to God.

Because God is Omniscient He already knows every choice, not only that we will make but also every choice that we could make but actually won't make. That being said, God's Omniscience does not 'invalidate' our choices (as evidenced by the coming Day of Judgement). Just because He knows our choices in advance does not mean that we are not morally responsible for making them.

God is said to be omniscient. That means He knew everything that would happen before he created anything. So that means He already knew who would accept His love and who would not. He love us and wants to be with us and gets sad when people do not accept his love. Then those people are sent to hell and are permanently separated from Him. He already knew that these people would end up in that place so why did he create them in the first place. That seems counter productive.

That reasoning, whilst logically sound, actually visciates everything that it means to be human, made in the likeness of the Creator. Had we known in advance, would it have been morally right for us to execute Adolf Hitler as an infant or must we wait until He had actually committed his heinous crimes?! The truth is that we are morally accountable for our actions not God's Omniscience. God also knows that the creature cannot be judged or condemned until something has objectively happened (i.e. in the real world) that warrants judgement and/or condemnation.

How would you feel if God came to you as a child and said 'I'm going to have to kill you now because of what you're 'going' to do in twenty years time.'?!

Just so it is clear I am not trying to provoke a nasty argument. All I want is for someone to show me the holes in these thoughts.

Food for thought?

Simonline.
 
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mcpacker

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No. God created everything that has been created (including Lucifer ('Satan' is a title (meaning 'one who accuses') not a name)) but, being Perfect, God does not create anything less than perfect (Gen.1:31). What the creature does by way of moral actions once it has been created is a separate issue and one for which God cannot be held responsible (which is why there is going to be a Day of Judgement (Jn.5:21-30)).

The way you say that makes God sound naive




That reasoning, whilst logically sound, actually visciates everything that it means to be human, made in the likeness of the Creator. Had we known in advance, would it have been morally right for us to execute Adolf Hitler as an infant or must we wait until He had actually committed his heinous crimes?! The truth is that we are morally accountable for our actions not God's Omniscience. God also knows that the creature cannot be judged or condemned until something has objectively happened (i.e. in the real world) that warrants judgement and/or condemnation.

How would you feel if God came to you as a child and said 'I'm going to have to kill you now because of what you're 'going' to do in twenty years time.'?!

I'm not saying we should go and execute children for things in the future. I'm saying why were these people born in the first place?
 
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