American Outsourcing advantage and disadvantage

[brindisi]

This doesn't address the problem of depressed wages and unemployment resulting from manufacturing leaving the US.

Yes, it does. We need new technologies and increases in productivity for our industries to be competitive.

When and product reaches the point in it's life cycle that the only the only thing that determines competiveness is labor cost, we will always lose it to lower labor cost countries. The anwer is new technologies and productivity.

The development of the auto industry in America fueled enormous economic expansion, and so did the development of computers and software. We need all our young American geniuses working on their ideas in their garages to be able to develop the next waves of technology. We can't afford to make it impossible for them with crippling regulations and confiscatory taxes.

 

[canukian]

the real masters of the world, the bankers, have very sinister plans for the usa. outsourcing is by design. think 50 million murdered in communist russia.

 

[DeathMagus]

Yes, it does. We need new technologies and increases in productivity for our industries to be competitive.

Distribution of intelligence and opportunity means that you can't base an entire society's economy on innovation. Most of the population simply doesn't have the resources for that. An economy needs strong skilled and unskilled labor markets for those people.

 

[brindisi]

Distribution of intelligence and opportunity means that you can't base an entire society's economy on innovation. Most of the population simply doesn't have the resources for that. An economy needs strong skilled and unskilled labor markets for those people.

Then create some jobs and stop whining.

 

[DeathMagus]

Then create some jobs and stop whining.

Didn't have anything reasonable to say, I take it?

 

[brindisi]

Didn't have anything reasonable to say, I take it?

I said it.

You seem to think everyone else is responsible for this, and not you. I'm not going to sit here and pontificate with you about what someone else, or the government, should do.

 

[DeathMagus]

I said it.

You seem to think everyone else is responsible for this, and not you.

I see. Would you like to explain to all present how the 22-year-old self-employed graduate student is responsible for the lack of jobs in the US economy? Take your time - I'll wait.

I'm not going to sit here and pontificate with you about what someone else, or the government, should do.

You're more than happy to pontificate on your own about what someone else or the government should do (posts #19 & #21), but refuse to answer in a meaningful when people point out why your suggestions are impractical - preferring instead to call them "whiners".

 

[brindisi]

I see. Would you like to explain to all present how the 22-year-old self-employed graduate student is responsible for the lack of jobs in the US economy? Take your time - I'll wait.

You're not responsible for the lack of jobs. But as you become more successful in your self-employment, you will be dong your part: being a buyer, and supplier, and employer. None of us starts out being a job creator but we build to it. The accumulated thousands and millions of deathmagus employers is what drives the economy and creates jobs.

I don't mean to be sharp or insulting, but it's been a difficult day. I know you want things to improve quickly, but I don't think that's going to happen. Businesses have to feel confident that our tax policies and markets are stable (not just for this year, but for several years in the future) before they will be confident enough to start expanding again. And when that happens I want you to be an important part of it.

I want you to do well, succeed, grow wealthy, and hire lots of folks.

You're more than happy to pontificate on your own about what someone else or the government should do (posts #19 & #21), but refuse to answer in a meaningful when people point out why your suggestions are impractical - preferring instead to call them "whiners".

I apologize.

 

[DeathMagus]

You're not responsible for the lack of jobs. But as you become more successful in your self-employment, you will be dong your part: being a buyer, and supplier, and employer. None of us starts out being a job creator but we build to it. The accumulated thousands and millions of deathmagus employers is what drives the economy and creates jobs.

Absolutely it is (though I'm actually looking to liquidate for reasons other than the economy - but maybe I'll start another business in the future).

I don't mean to be sharp or insulting, but it's been a difficult day.

I figured as much - it was a response most unlike you.

I know you want things to improve quickly, but I don't think that's going to happen. Businesses have to feel confident that our tax policies and markets are stable (not just for this year, but for several years in the future) before they will be confident enough to start expanding again. And when that happens I want you to be an important part of it.

I want you to do well, succeed, grow wealthy, and hire lots of folks.

I don't hold any delusions about this improving quickly - Americans have been digging this hole for decades. You are correct in that innovation and technology are crucial to regain our economic strength. I think you err, however, in dismissing the importance of skilled and unskilled manual labor, and the threat that unrestricted global trade is to our economy.

The majority of our (and any) country simply don't have the intellectual capacity, the drive, or the resources to become innovators in the way you describe. Yes, we should improve education and increase the number that can, but the remainder (well over half) will need run-of-the-mill production jobs.

If a populace needs production jobs, and they must compete with workers who will do those jobs for less, then unemployment will increase, and the economy will falter. The only way I can see to prevent this is tariff increases to spur American production. I doubt it will happen, though - because China would throw a fit, and Americans would see rising prices and not realize that they would benefit in the long run.

I apologize.

Accepted wholeheartedly.

 

[brindisi]

Accepted wholeheartedly.

 

[kermit]

It may come as a surprise to workers in China and India that they have a lower standard of living now.

China and India were on the rise regardless of US trade deals. But if you look at places like Mexico and Africa it's hard to make a case that workers' standard of living has gone up.

I know, I know,... liberals liked it better when those countries were filled with beggars. Yet another victim group for liberals to tut-tut about.

I don't want poverty anywhere, but we need to get our own house in order before we start meddling in the affairs of other nations or making deals with foreign leaders whom we know don't have the best interest of their people in mind.

 

[acropolis]

Yes, it does. We need new technologies and increases in productivity for our industries to be competitive.

When and product reaches the point in it's life cycle that the only the only thing that determines competiveness is labor cost, we will always lose it to lower labor cost countries. The anwer is new technologies and productivity.

The development of the auto industry in America fueled enormous economic expansion, and so did the development of computers and software. We need all our young American geniuses working on their ideas in their garages to be able to develop the next waves of technology. We can't afford to make it impossible for them with crippling regulations and confiscatory taxes.

A few intelligent people may be able to make themselves wealthy, but they cannot do anything to prevent people from losing jobs to others overseas. If some automotive genius were to arise from some garage in the US, he would need to locate his factories in a country with a low enough cost in order to remain competitive. It isn't wise to wager an entire economy of the existence of a few supermen who are capable of reversing global trends. That is merely wishful thinking. Protecting a market with import taxes or subsidies is a demonstrated method for ensuring jobs and, therefore, wealth, remains in a country.

Plus it isn't realistic to expect a garage tinkerer to compete with a laboratory full of professional researchers. Even a genius requires money for research and access to very expensive machines. Some fields are impossible to work in without expensive machinery, such as materials science.

I agree that innovation is a way to stay ahead, but simply hoping and praying that someone somewhere will find a way to make brilliant discoveries without financial support is very unrealistic. It would be better to try to collect those brilliant minds via merit scholarships to make sure that even if they are a poor genius that they are able to have access to the education and laboratory equipment they need to produce quality research (this already happens, which is part of why the US is still the best country to do science in). The educated and financed genius will beat out the garage genius every time. But of course it is more important to stick to some arbitrarily determined principles rather than create realistic system to promote innovation.

 

[grasping the after wind]

That is a false dicotomy.

No it isn't.

Also, no one is talking about outlawing outsourcing. All that opponent of outsourcing want is to end the government incentives to outsource.

Some people have indeed talked about outlawing outsourcing since someone is not no one I believe you are mistaken about that.. Opponents of government incentives have my support.

 

[brindisi]

I agree that innovation is a way to stay ahead, but simply hoping and praying that someone somewhere will find a way to make brilliant discoveries without financial support is very unrealistic.

No one is just hoping and praying! But for crying out loud, where is your faith in the hunman spirit? How did you become so pessimistic?

 

[MorkandMindy]

A few intelligent people may be able to make themselves wealthy, but they cannot do anything to prevent people from losing jobs to others overseas. If some automotive genius were to arise from some garage in the US, he would need to locate his factories in a country with a low enough cost in order to remain competitive...

Dyson managed it, he not only substantially improved many domestic appliances but also beat the corporate inventors, and built the product locally at a profit.

He eventually had to outsource production because competition forced his prices down.

 

[MorkandMindy]

We all know that the free market is good for everyone, but it does mean that we will run a trade deficit until American and British workers are willing to work for about the same as they work for in China, Bangladesh, India, Vietnam or Indonesia.

Labor rates in China have been moving up but this has meant work that can be done anywhere has in some cases gone to other low cost Asian countries.

More crucially, simply expecting labor costs to go up all over the World is not a good idea because in the areas where a lot of manufacturing has been going on a whole infrastructure behind the manufacturing has of course developed. I recall when one company I was in relocated manufacture of our plastic cases, even at zero labor rates England could not compete because the plastic for the cases was now made in China.

The outflow of money from the UK and US is an absolute torrent. So now is the time to start working for a dollar an hour if you want to rescue the economy and you genuinely believe in the free market.

 

[acropolis]

No one is just hoping and praying! But for crying out loud, where is your faith in the hunman spirit? How did you become so pessimistic?

You are just hoping and praying that someone, somewhere will make it all better without having to change anything you don't like. I've made a few arguments as to why it's unrealistic to expect a few geniuses to make a significant difference on the national economy, particularly if they are living in a libertarian nation. You aren't engaging with the problem at all, just saying people need to be better, work harder, be smarter, but you haven't explained what would change to suddenly make people in this nation so much more innovative and hardworking than other nations. Expecting something to change for no reason is, for lack of better word, unreasonable.

Dyson managed it, he not only substantially improved many domestic appliances but also beat the corporate inventors, and built the product locally at a profit.

He eventually had to outsource production because competition forced his prices down.

This anecdote supports my argument since he ultimately had to outsource production, which was the point I was making in the section you quoted. Not even a genius can overcome market forces.

We all know that the free market is good for everyone,

This cannot be taken for granted. You and many others are devoted to this particular style of economics and government without properly supporting why it is good for everyone. The topic of this discussion is how domestic jobs are being relocated overseas, which drains a nation of wealthy and raises unemployment. How, exactly, is that good for everyone? And why should we be devoted to the free market without question, even when it is shown to hurt people?

 

[MorkandMindy]

We all know that the free market is good for everyone,

but it does mean that we will run a trade deficit until American and British workers are willing to work for about the same as they work for in China, Bangladesh, India, Vietnam or Indonesia.


... So now is the time to start working for a dollar an hour if you want to rescue the economy and you genuinely believe in the free market.

Now is the time to find out how many people genuinely believe in the free market.

 

[acropolis]

Now is the time to find out how many people genuinely believe in the free market.

A system is only good insofar as it does good. Only a superstitious person would devote themselves unquestioningly to a system regardless of how much suffering it causes.

 

[brindisi]

You are just hoping and praying that someone, somewhere will make it all better without having to change anything you don't like. I've made a few arguments as to why it's unrealistic to expect a few geniuses to make a significant difference on the national economy, particularly if they are living in a libertarian nation. You aren't engaging with the problem at all, just saying people need to be better, work harder, be smarter, but you haven't explained what would change to suddenly make people in this nation so much more innovative and hardworking than other nations. Expecting something to change for no reason is, for lack of better word, unreasonable.

I'm the one running a company and hiring employees...right here in the United States. And you? Other than fantasizing about the government changing your life, what are you doing?