Free will and hell

[Rabid_Rabbit]

So I haven't read over all the threads in this section and no doubt you have all heard this question before. But this is something I have been contemplating lately and my "devout christian" family just skirt around my questions. So I'm not expecting many if any serious thought out answers but here goes.

To the christians and non-christians out there: What is your opinion on "hell". I for one don't believe that a god that would allow free will would condemn people to everlasting torment for choosing not to believe in him. I think that would defeat the whole purpose of free will. What is your opinion?

 

[salida]

Sorry, your family didn't answer your question.

God doesn't send people to hell but people send themselves. He gives us plenty of chances.

From one man he made every nation of men, so that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the time set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out to him, though he is not far from each one of us, Acts 17:26-27.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

If a person rejected you a thousand times in their life time would you let them in your house?

Or if a parent keeps telling you over and over to not touch that hot stove but you do anyway you pay the consequences.

Its interesting that people demand truth with their bank accounts, their lawyers, doctors, etc. but when it comes to spiritual matters all of a sudden its different. Other religions are all fundamentally different so they all can't be right at the same time.

Our culture likes to believe in moral relativism but they are not relative. There is a moral law but people have their preferences to ignore it so the put the word relative name on it.

This law is called the 10 commandments:
Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

 

[MattRose]

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

Matthew 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name

To paraphrase an old computer ad, "Dude, you're going to hell".

 

[salida]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[oi_antz]

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.

Matthew 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night, along with anyone who receives the mark of his name

To paraphrase an old computer ad, "Dude, you're going to hell".

Rabid Rabbit, it would pay to read the proper context of what Jesus said in Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31-46 (New Living Translation)

The Final Judgment

31 “But when the Son of Man[a] comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[c] you were doing it to me!’

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[d] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

God doesn't do anything without good reasons.

 

[MattRose]

I'm trying to point out scripture that proves that hell exists, is eternal punishment, and some people will be there. Rabid Rabbit are you convinced that this is so? I'd like to discuss the other parts of your question once you have made a decision on this part.

 

[seashale76]

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

A good article about hell from an Orthodox perspective: Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife

 

[hlaltimus]

Yes, God did give us a free will, but he gave this free will to creatures who were "created in God's image", and that image definitely includes moral holiness.

In other words: Adam, Eve and the race that proceeded from them, were free to exercise a sort of limited, sovereign free choice, as God himself also has a free choice, (only his free will is umlimited, since his being is unlimited.) However, since our foreparents were made to bear the moral image of God, ("Be ye holy, for I am holy",) and that moral image is righteousness, their free will was truly free to elect what-so-ever choices it would, only so long as they exercised their sovereign free choice in the paths of righteousness, which is the innate quality of God's moral constitution.

This isn't really hard to grasp at all, and is only reasonable for God the Creator to expect of us all: Adam and his race could choose between an innumerable host of various electives in any one particular pursuit, so long as they didn't contradict the righteous principles which are the very moral foundation of God's being, and supposedly ours. Something like a Father sending his son to work in his vineyard one day, but telling the son, (or daughter!) that he or she would now in fact own that vineyard as their personal possession! Such a son or daughter was completely free to manage the sprawling and lush vineyard in whatever way they should freely choose to, only so long as they brought forth the good and righteous fruits that were expected, and also within the bounds of that vineyard, and not of another. If the Father had sent out 3 or 4 children to own and manage just as many vineyards, each child would no doubt elect to manage their particular vineyard in a slightly different manner from the next sibling. This was to be expected by the Father of course, as they, (like him,) were free will beings, and so exercised their free will choices according to the different temperments and unique characteristics of each child.

God does grant a legitimate, (but limited,) free will to his creatures, and yet still reserves the right to punish in the afterlife those creatures for the exercise of the very free will that he has imparted to them to use. This may appear to be inconsistent of God upon initial examination, but upon further study, he does not punish them for the use of the free will that he gave them to use, but for the misuse of using their free will's. The son or daughter in their imaginary vineyard could plant numerous grape species, and in the fashion or order in which they choose them to grow, so long as grapes were grown, and not worthless and repugnant weeds. It is not inconsistent and unreasonable for God to grant a certain free will capacity to his creatures, and then punish them, (in some cases,) for the exercising of their free will's, for he expects them to exercise their free choice within the generous bounds of the righteous principles that morally depict that Creator, whom they were created to bear the image of.

You are generally free to choose in this life...Yes, only you were designed to choose within the large confines of that which pleases the Being who has framed you with the intentions of making you his eternal abode. You are free to pursue that which will not offend God, yes: You can fly a kite if you wish to and can, knit a sweater, play a certain song and not another, purchase a yellow automobile but not a blue one, or even sing while in the shower at the top of your lungs, if that is what makes you happy and does not displease your God. Only choose that which is righteous and not unrighteous, for God covets to live eternally within a human being who is just like him: HOLY. Spotless angels do not have this unspeakable privilege...do not abuse it.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

God doesn't send people to hell but people send themselves. He gives us plenty of chances.

I've heard that said, and I guess it makes sense, but no person would choose eternal torment. Hell is a form of punishment for the wicked - I can understand that. But doesn't eternal damnation seem a bit out of proportion, even for a lifetime's worth of sins? I can understand why God wouldn't let people into heaven who wouldn't want to go there. But for those that don't, why would God let people who were unsaved suffer eternally for a finite amount of sins? Wouldn't it be make more sense for there to be a place of non-eternal punishment? I don't believe in purgatory, but I can understand why some Christians would want to believe in the concept.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So I haven't read over all the threads in this section and no doubt you have all heard this question before. But this is something I have been contemplating lately and my "devout christian" family just skirt around my questions. So I'm not expecting many if any serious thought out answers but here goes.

To the christians and non-christians out there: What is your opinion on "hell". I for one don't believe that a god that would allow free will would condemn people to everlasting torment for choosing not to believe in him. I think that would defeat the whole purpose of free will. What is your opinion?

You are correct. The fate of the unbeliever is the 'second death', not eternal life in torment. That is reserved for Satan and the demons. All are cast into the 'lake of fire', but the souls of mortal men perish in the flames, while the immortal evil spirits are tormented in it forever. It is the desire of way too many Christians to see unbelievers tormented forever that drives a very unmerciful belief in 'hell'.

 

[razeontherock]

It is the desire of way too many Christians to see unbelievers tormented forever that drives a very unmerciful belief in 'hell'.

Speak for yourself. I've never met anyone who "desires" that.

 

[The writer]

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

A good article about hell from an Orthodox perspective: Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife

Thank you for your post, I have been meditating on the verses in Scripture in 2 thessalonians, that speaks of the unrepentant who will be destroyed in Christ's presence. As God is a consuming fire, it will be hell in His presence to the soul who rejects, Christ's forgiveness.

 

[razeontherock]

So I'm still wondering any official EO position on hell being destructive, redemptive / educational, or simply punitive?

 

[MattRose]

So I'm still wondering any official EO position on hell being destructive, redemptive / educational, or simply punitive?

Well I know that in their song "Latitude 88 North" they say "It's so cold, cold as hell." Wait, you did mean ELO's position right?

 

[.Iona.]

To the christians and non-christians out there: What is your opinion on "hell". I for one don't believe that a god that would allow free will would condemn people to everlasting torment for choosing not to believe in him. I think that would defeat the whole purpose of free will. What is your opinion?

It depends on what denomination you come from, people believe in it differently. The Bible says that there is a Hell for sinners (non believers) and that people will go there. Some people take this literally, others don't.

I understand how you see it being confusing and not making sense that we have free will, yet are punished for using it. But, I guess the free will is meant for choosing God.

Many people will say different things though and each will argue that there way is the truth.

 

[Jig]

So I haven't read over all the threads in this section and no doubt you have all heard this question before. But this is something I have been contemplating lately and my "devout christian" family just skirt around my questions. So I'm not expecting many if any serious thought out answers but here goes.

To the christians and non-christians out there: What is your opinion on "hell". I for one don't believe that a god that would allow free will would condemn people to everlasting torment for choosing not to believe in him. I think that would defeat the whole purpose of free will. What is your opinion?

This question assumes we all deserve Heaven. In fact, we all deserve Hell. We are already heading to Hell. God is actively rescuing people from going to Hell, He does not send people to Hell. You've got it twisted.

People end up in Hell because of their sin. It has nothing to do with whether or not you "believe" in God.

Sinful people go to Hell because there is no where else for them to go. Our sins separate us from God. There is only two options with God or away from God. Hell is torturous because it is a place of separation from God. There is no love, no hope, no peace, nothing good! Heaven is pure bliss because God is present.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

This question assumes we all deserve Heaven. In fact, we all deserve Hell. We are already heading to Hell. God is actively rescuing people from going to Hell, He does not send people to Hell. You've got it twisted.

People end up in Hell because of their sin. It has nothing to do with whether or not you "believe" in God.

Sinful people go to Hell because there is no where else for them to go. Our sins separate us from God. There is only two options with God or away from God. Hell is torturous because it is a place of separation from God. There is no love, no hope, no peace, nothing good! Heaven is pure bliss because God is present.

What doesn't make sense to me is that hell seems so out of proportion to the wrongs people have committed. Even just one lie by an unsaved person could send them to eternal torture. If God is just, why would he punish that one sin by sending someone to hell where they'd be eternally tortured? I'm not saying he should let that person into heaven - but wouldn't it make more sense to limit that persons punishment to be proportional to the sin, or perhaps create another place for sinners to go who don't deserve eternal punishment? I'm not Catholic, but I can fully understand how the concept of purgatory was developed.

 

[oi_antz]

What doesn't make sense to me is that hell seems so out of proportion to the wrongs people have committed. Even just one lie by an unsaved person could send them to eternal torture. If God is just, why would he punish that one sin by sending someone to hell where they'd be eternally tortured? I'm not saying he should let that person into heaven - but wouldn't it make more sense to limit that persons punishment to be proportional to the sin, or perhaps create another place for sinners to go who don't deserve eternal punishment? I'm not Catholic, but I can fully understand how the concept of purgatory was developed.

You know, this topic is a difficult one because for one thing we haven't experienced the afterlife so there is very little we can know about it, but it is certainly the thing we will know better than anything else. Then there is the matter that us mere humans seem to think we can question God's decisions or even make up our own mind about what God plans to do and then preach that as though we have such authority when most of the time we don't. What is certain though is that God is good and just and He loves us all. So given that He is good and just, He serves justice on those who do injustice. Because He loves us all, He serves justice on those who do harm, as all sin is harmful in one way or another.

Matthew 25 doesn't say "all the Christians will enter heaven" or "every sinner will go to hell", what it says is the king separates the goats from the sheep based upon whether they have demonstrated love and respect for others or whether they have demonstrated selfishness to the point of depriving another's basic needs. Also:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

So, to be a Sunday Christian isn't enough to save you apparently, you have to be truly repentant of the sin in your life and consciously apply your efforts to living as God would have you live. Put these two passages together and it becomes apparent that some of the sheep in the end time may be living God's will even without first knowing His law! I think this could be said true of Noah and Abraham for example.

I think there are many people who think they are "relatively decent and upstanding" who in their childhood may have picked legs off a fly, or condescended a less esteemed schoolmate, or even expressed some sort of stereotypical hatred. These sorts of sins tend to slip the memory quite easily since the brain is only interested in retaining that information which is useful and wholesome. Nevertheless, these sins do have a detrimental impact on the others who are affected by them, even in some cases to the point of causing long-term suffering or death. So why doesn't it seem such a big deal to the offender when clearly it has life-changing effects on the victim? It is because we can't see the situation from the other person's point of view. So for anyone to say "I don't deserve what God deems just", and especially without actually knowing the point of view God has, is somewhat misinformed and something else.

 

[Jig]

What doesn't make sense to me is that hell seems so out of proportion to the wrongs people have committed. Even just one lie by an unsaved person could send them to eternal torture.

This right here proves you don't understand just how serious sin is. This also proves you don't understand how holy God is.

Trust me. Nothing is out of proportion when you realize what sin really is and how it effects our relationship with a perfectly holy and eternal God.

 

[wsgqapu_ap]

This right here proves you don't understand just how serious sin is. This also proves you don't understand how holy God is.

Trust me. Nothing is out of proportion when you realize what sin really is and how it effects our relationship with a perfectly holy and eternal God.

I think we're coming from different perspectives here. I think I agree with you in that I understand that by sinning, it affects our relationship with God and means we can't be in proper relationship with God unless we repent and are forgiven - but even if we can't go to heaven, there's the issue of where we go to. It just seems to me that torturing people eternally is a bit out of proportion. God puts forth a standard of an eye for an eye in the Old Testament - it just seems to me that the same proportional justice would make more sense in this case, instead of doling out eternal punishment for the smallest of sins, even a white lie.