Extravegant Grace versus Cheap Grace

[sunlover1]

God's not mad.
..
is He?

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I think your going to have to expound on what you...mean...

 

[Big Drew]

I think your going to have to expound on what you...mean...

Yeah, I'm confuzzled as well.

 

[razeontherock]

Any Grace that's cheap, is a counterfeit. I look at this as a root of the dichotomy you pose:

"And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this [is] known in all the earth.
Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great [is] the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee."

And special just for the haters, here it is in The Message:

My Strength and Song

1 And you will say in that day,
"I thank you, God.
You were angry
but your anger wasn't forever.
You withdrew your anger
and moved in and comforted me.
2"Yes, indeed—God is my salvation.
I trust, I won't be afraid.
God—yes God!—is my strength and song,
best of all, my salvation!"

3-4Joyfully you'll pull up buckets of water
from the wells of salvation.
And as you do it, you'll say,
"Give thanks to God.
Call out his name.
Ask him anything!
Shout to the nations, tell them what he's done,
spread the news of his great reputation!

5-6"Sing praise-songs to God. He's done it all!
Let the whole earth know what he's done!
Raise the roof! Sing your hearts out, O Zion!
The Greatest lives among you: The Holy of Israel."


Oh the horror, the heresy, the blasphemy; why, it's not even Scripture

 

[sunlover1]

I think your going to have to expound on what you...mean...

Dang, I hate it when that happens!

Yeah, I'm confuzzled as well.

I recently heard folks referring to grace as "cheap grace"... Can't remember who.
And IIRC, I said something like " How much cheaper can you get than free?"

My goal is to cause all of us to explore the truth and to reconsider what we do with grace, how we respond to grace and to each other.

Any Grace that's cheap, is a counterfeit. I look at this as a root of the dichotomy you pose:

"And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.
Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this [is] known in all the earth.
Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great [is] the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee."

And special just for the haters, here it is in The Message:

My Strength and Song

1 And you will say in that day,
"I thank you, God.
You were angry
but your anger wasn't forever.
You withdrew your anger
and moved in and comforted me.
2"Yes, indeed—God is my salvation.
I trust, I won't be afraid.
God—yes God!—is my strength and song,
best of all, my salvation!"

3-4Joyfully you'll pull up buckets of water
from the wells of salvation.
And as you do it, you'll say,
"Give thanks to God.
Call out his name.
Ask him anything!
Shout to the nations, tell them what he's done,
spread the news of his great reputation!

5-6"Sing praise-songs to God. He's done it all!
Let the whole earth know what he's done!
Raise the roof! Sing your hearts out, O Zion!
The Greatest lives among you: The Holy of Israel."


Oh the horror, the heresy, the blasphemy; why, it's not even Scripture

TBH, I am more intrigued with your last statement than your first
And this attitude (haters) is part of the impetus for this thread LOL
Before we can continue though you must explain your meaning of "cheap grace".

 

[MKJ]

The idea of cheap grace, I believe, comes from The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He said:

"Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, (it is) baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate."

"Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake of one will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble; it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock.
Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: "ye were bought at a price," and and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. . .
. . . Grace is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: "my yoke is easy and my burden light."

 

[grasping the after wind]

The problem with the term "cheap Grace" is that cheap is not an adjective describing a certain type of Grace but the term "cheap Grace" actually refers to an attitude about Grace that allows a person to do whatever they wish because they can count on God's Grace for their salvation.

 

[Harry3142]

A few years ago a man gained access to a chemical facility in this area. He stole a 1-gallon jug of a certain chemical, and promptly poured its contents into a pond nearby. This caused a 'rescue effort' such as this state had never seen before.

The pond led to a stream, which led to a river, which itself led to one of the largest rivers in the USA. Earthen dams were constructed using bulldozers, water was completely drained from the affected areas, and there was a no-holds-barred effort to neutralize the damage caused.

And why was such an effort made? The particular chemical that the man had stolen had a lethality that rendered 1 million gallons of water as toxic if 1 drop of the chemical was added to it. No life could exist where this chemical was present. Irregardless of the lifegiving properties inherent in the water itself, the chemical rendered that lifegiving property as useless.

Sin is like that chemical. We could live our entire lives as pure individuals, only to have one sin render our entire life's effort as toxic. Some people like to compartmentalize their actions, and then argue that so long as the good outweighs the evil they're safe. But the good does not outweigh the evil. Instead, the good is rendered lethal by the presence of the evil.

This is why grace is not to be seen as cheap or costly, but only as essential. We all answer to God; he alone is to be seen as the person to whom all are to give an accounting of their actions. Those who live better lives than others (and who's to say what God considers as better) have no room to boast. We do what we know that we are supposed to do. That is worthy of nothing (Luke 17:7-10). We have done nothing more than what we knew we should do.

But due to our own propensity toward sin, we have 'toxified' our righteousness.That's why God had to lay out a blueprint for our salvation that did not involve us for its completion (Romans 3:19-26). He did the work; he himself completed the process through his own Son Jesus Christ. We had no part in it. If it had relied on our own efforts, they would have rendered it lethal rather than salvific.

The proper mindset for us to have is that we have been given the salvific righteousness which we could never obtain. We cannot augment this righteousness through our own actions, nor can we repay God for what he has given us. It is God's own righteousness, rather than any righteousness of our own earning, that is to be given credit for our salvation. Anything and everything we do in response to having received that righteousness is to be recognized by us as no more than our showing our gratitude to God for what he has already done in order to rescue us from our own toxicity.

 

[sunlover1]

The problem with the term "cheap Grace" is that cheap is not an adjective describing a certain type of Grace but the term "cheap Grace" actually refers to an attitude about Grace that allows a person to do whatever they wish because they can count on God's Grace for their salvation.

So you are saying that there are things you can or cannot do to make God angry with you, His child?

 

[grasping the after wind]

So you are saying that there are things you can or cannot do to make God angry with you, His child?

No, I was just trying to explain what the term "cheap Grace' meant. I would say, however, that because God loves you and gives you His Grace it would be nice if you tried to act as if you cared about that fact rather than treat God as your sugar daddy who will bail you out no matter how obnoxiously you behave.

 

[sunlover1]

No, I was just trying to explain what the term "cheap Grace' meant. I would say, however, that because God loves you and gives you His Grace it would be nice if you tried to act as if you cared about that fact rather than treat God as your sugar daddy who will bail you out no matter how obnoxiously you behave.

Thank you. Just making sure what you were saying.

I think what you just described is probably the exact OPPOSITE of reality.

39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself,
“If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him
and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”
40Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”
“Tell me, teacher,” he said.
41“Two men owed money to a certain moneylender.
One owed him five hundred denarii,d and the other fifty.
42Neither of them had the money to pay him back,
so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

 

[grasping the after wind]

Thank you. Just making sure what you were saying.

I think what you just described is probably the exact OPPOSITE of reality.

39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself,
“If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him
and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”
40Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”
“Tell me, teacher,” he said.
41“Two men owed money to a certain moneylender.
One owed him five hundred denarii,d and the other fifty.
42Neither of them had the money to pay him back,
so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

Reality is a thing I would never claim to be an authority on. Ecclesiastes is, after all, my favorite OT book.

 

[sunlover1]

Reality is a thing I would never claim to be an authority on. Ecclesiastes is, after all, my favorite OT book.

No authority either. Was judging by my own recent tears of pain at my weakness.

 

[Frogster]

True grace actually can't be cheapened, because it is the gospel. Jude quickly wrote about it, as a change in his letter, because of the Jews who were ignorant, and thought that no law, meant ok to sin, Rom 6:15. They charged Paul with the following.

Romans 3:7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

Then there were the antinomians, whose God was their belly. Phil 3.

 

[Frogster]

No authority either. Was judging by my own recent tears of pain at my weakness.

Be glad...
Contrary to Joyce Meyer, you can't fix Adam.
Paul, years later, still learned at Ephesus, to trust in God, who raises the dead, takes time friend....Paul was still learning.

2 Cor 1:9 Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead

 

[MKJ]

Grasping after the Wind is correct. Cheap Grace refers to a particular attitude found in some individuals and even groups which suggests that if we have faith, we are essentially allowed to do, or can get away with doing, anything. In the most extreme form it says if you are saved by professing Christ, you can commit the most terrible atrocities and it does not affect your salvation. In a more subtle form it says that because we are sinners we will never become more Christ like - we will stay in a similar state of sin as we always were, but that state will be "overlooked" by God.

It really brings everything down to one moment - the moment of being "saved" and forgets everything that comes after. Instead of seeing the individual through grace and diligence try to be more and more what a true Christian should be, repenting and turning back to the correct path again when we sin, and giving us the actual hope of overcoming sin in our daily life, cheap grace simply says we make no effort to live as God has commanded, but accept that none of our sins are counted against us.

This is cheap Grace because it has no consequences for us, it demands nothing from us, not even that we give up sin.

 

[sunlover1]

Grasping after the Wind is correct. Cheap Grace refers to a particular attitude found in some individuals and even groups which suggests that if we have faith, we are essentially allowed to do, or can get away with doing, anything.

I disagree. "Cheap" makes it sound bad.
So I like to use the word extravagant..

In the most extreme form it says if you are saved by professing Christ, you can commit the most terrible atrocities and it does not affect your salvation.

Which is true of course but not our worry because it's this great love of God that
brings men to "Repentance" not "atrocities" lol.

It really brings everything down to one moment - the moment of being "saved" and forgets everything that comes after. Instead of seeing the individual through grace and diligence try to be more and more what a true Christian should be, repenting and turning back to the correct path again when we sin, and giving us the actual hope of overcoming sin in our daily life, cheap grace simply says we make no effort to live as God has commanded, but accept that none of our sins are counted against us.

This is cheap Grace because it has no consequences for us, it demands nothing from us, not even that we give up sin.

I am talking about that kind of Grace that loves even the most pathetic sinner,.. that
sinner that would never be allowed in most of the churches we know of... but would
be welcome and embraced in the one where God is welcome.
The gay guy.. the prostitute... the lowest of low, the drunkest of drunks.. and the Jim bakers of the world.
That sort of "extravegent" grace.
That sort of grace that I need... desperately... (So do you)

 

[Thekla]

That which has no practical (worldly) value, is valueless, has the greatest value.

 

[sunlover1]

That which has no practical (worldly) value, is valueless, has the greatest value.

Heh.
Everything is opposite in the Kingdom of God isn't it?

I am studying grace and freedom in Christ and I have a feeling
I will be reminding myself over and over and over that we really
are ... SERIOULY are... honestly are.... FREE in Christ

 

[razeontherock]

Before we can continue though you must explain your meaning of "cheap grace".

I'm glad nobody waited on me to respond. How 'bout that Harry, eh? Still, I don't see anybody else referring to "cheap Grace" that way i was thinking about it in my first post. I see everybody talking about it as in "(as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:8)


I see that train of thought speaking to human behavior rather than God's Grace. The only link I see between the two is when believers work miracles.

So since the question wasn't about human behavior at all but instead about G-d's Grace, I'd like to make that distinction. Sticking to what God has done, of course there's a song:

He grew the tree
that He knew would be
used to make the old rugged Cross


Hokey lyrics and musically it's not much; but it sure gets to the heart of things! What I primarily get out of the last book of the Bible is that once Grace is fully revealed and we see how completely over the top it is, we'll want nothing more than to spend forever, gawking, catching flies, staring in awe! Bringing my head back out of the clouds, our population is teeming with those who think heaven will be boring, and seriously consider hell a viable alternative.

I think that might help put grace in proper perspective; lavish, extravagant, and totally over the top Grace. We are incapable of cheapening it, just as Jesus is separate from sinners. G-d has His way of keeping such incredible power from falling into the wrong hands, and there are certain things satan hasn't seen either, so he has no counterfeit. I think those "things" are where Grace resides, and Psalm 91 sure comes to mind ...

Interesting that the phrase "and great Grace was upon them all" only appears once in the Bible. Look at that context!