Pope: Condoms Can Be Justified in Some Cases

[Imperiuz]

I agree with the pope... for the male prostitute, condom usage would be last on his list of sins committed, he needs to worry about.

LOL...

If you are gay- using a condom can not add to the sin.

But in no way should anyone in their right mind take this as any kind of affirmation of condom usage amongst heterosexuals.

Exactly. It's not like using a condom is the worst when committing a mortal sin. If you are truly catholic and follow your faith with your sexuality, you will never have to think about using condoms.

Abstinence, of course, is a more effective tool against HIV, and, while I think science recognizes that, it also recognizes that some young people, perhaps even most, don't have the self-discipline and self-control to be 100% abstinent all the time.

If you really believe in this, then I think you have to talk with a priest or at least your local physiologist. You can never justify having sex with "not being in control", because if you aren't hypnotized or very mentally ill, you are always the one in control of your actions. You cannot justify morally illicit actions with "lack of self-control". A rapist and a murderer doesn't escape their punishment if they claim to not being able to resist the urge to rape or murder someone.

 

[Gwendolyn]

I don't think it has to do with self-discipline and self-control. I think it has more to do with simply not wanting to be abstinent and not caring what old men in cassocks have to say.

 

[Fantine]

Originally Posted by benedictaoo

I agree with the pope... for the male prostitute, condom usage would be last on his list of sins committed, he needs to worry about.

LOL...

If you are gay- using a condom can not add to the sin.

But in no way should anyone in their right mind take this as any kind of affirmation of condom usage amongst heterosexuals.
​

I think that the temptation is to extend it to any and all situations where one of the partners is infertile.

There are postmenopausal women who may still be sexually active.

There are many men who have had vasectomies and women who have had tubal ligations who may still be sexually active. (As a matter of fact, statistics show that 45% of people who practice birth control in the world have had sterilizations--and many of those people may live in Africa. Sterilization has been common in the third world, where people marry young, have large families, and have little access to other forms of birth control, since the Indian government began offering men free transistor radios in the 1960's if they had vasectomies.)

Can this "permission" be extended to any and all of these people who are irrevocably and permanently infertile, whether due to advanced age or hysterectomy or sterillization?

I guess that's what some are wondering.

 

[AMDG]

condoms are a very effective tool in the battle against HIV.

But the Pope has said that condoms are not effective in the battle against HIV. And that that hasn't been reported by the positively giddy press, is a disservice to all and leads all sorts of people (who don't seem to know the Catholic teachings) to jump to the idea that condoms are indeed effective tools in the fight against HIV.

 

[JoabAnias]

Vatican spokesman: Pope not changing Church teaching on condom use

 

[isshinwhat]

I wish the press would realize that the Pope is talking about the interior disposition of the person and stop misleading people. In the beginning the male prostitute is assumed to be sexually active, selfishly so given his medical condition; however, the first prangs of conscience lead the prostitute to wear a condom. The Pope says that the use of a condom is not moral, but on the scale of sinfulness it marks a beginning towards morality as the prostitute recognizes the consequences of his sexual permisiveness and begins to act in a less selfish manner. The Pope never once said that using the condom was permissible, only that it's use showed a movement towards morality in this particular instance.

helpful guide to what the Pope did and did not say.

The Holy Father is simply observing that for some homosexual prostitutes the use of a condom may indicate an awakening of a moral sense; an awakening that sexual pleasure is not the highest value, but that we must take care that we harm no one with our choices. He is not speaking to the morality of the use of a condom, but to something that may be true about the psychological state of those who use them. If such individuals are using condoms to avoid harming another, they may eventually realize that sexual acts between members of the same sex are inherently harmful since they are not in accord with human nature.​

If someone was going to rob a bank and was determined to use a gun, it would better for that person to use a gun that had no bullets in it. It would reduce the likelihood of fatal injuries. But it is not the task of the Church to instruct potential bank robbers how to rob banks more safely and certainly not the task of the Church to support programs of providing potential bank robbers with guns that could not use bullets. Nonetheless, the intent of a bank robber to rob a bank in a way that is safer for the employees and customers of the bank may indicate an element of moral responsibility that could be a step towards eventual understanding of the immorality of bank robbing.
​

 

[Virgil the Roman]

This whole issue seems to be very imprudent on his Holiness's part. A nuanced position, easily distorted by the media, that does not have a clear goal. All it seems to be doing, is exacerbating the confusion surrounding proper orthodox Catholic teaching.

 

[SolomonVII]

But the Pope has said that condoms are not effective in the battle against HIV. And that that hasn't been reported by the positively giddy press, is a disservice to all and leads all sorts of people (who don't seem to know the Catholic teachings) to jump to the idea that condoms are indeed effective tools in the fight against HIV.

From my understanding, the pope tends to follow the logic that can be no technological cures for what are in essence a moral failings.

One cannot underestimate the strength of the death wish involved in much sexually illicit behaviors, for example, ever present, lurking like a shadow, or a snake in the grass even, waiting for a slip in the sinners resolve to life.

 

[MoonlessNight]

This whole issue seems to be very imprudent on his Holiness's part. A nuanced position, easily distorted by the media, that does not have a clear goal. All it seems to be doing, is exacerbating the confusion surrounding proper orthodox Catholic teaching.

I don't blame the Pope on this one. The only way for him to avoid having the papers print misleading quotes is for him to simply stop talking about homosexuality, contraception, marriage, and sexuality in general. If the news agencies get a 200 page statement from the Pope, and there's a line about "the need to promote a traditional family" at the bottom of page 198, that's the only thing that will be in a headline.

However, I don't think that L'Osservatore Romano did the Pope any favors with its article. I haven't seen the actual article, so I don't know for sure, but it seems like it specifically highlighted this and only this part of the interview (i.e. the stuff mentioning condoms.) That's just a guarantee that the newspapers are going to jump all over it, especially as they consider anything printed in L'Osservatore Romano to be as good as a Papal Decree anyway.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think that the temptation is to extend it to any and all situations where one of the partners is infertile.

There are postmenopausal women who may still be sexually active.

There are many men who have had vasectomies and women who have had tubal ligations who may still be sexually active. (As a matter of fact, statistics show that 45% of people who practice birth control in the world have had sterilizations--and many of those people may live in Africa. Sterilization has been common in the third world, where people marry young, have large families, and have little access to other forms of birth control, since the Indian government began offering men free transistor radios in the 1960's if they had vasectomies.)

Can this "permission" be extended to any and all of these people who are irrevocably and permanently infertile, whether due to advanced age or hysterectomy or sterillization?

I guess that's what some are wondering.

reasonable questions

 

[epiclesis]

I think that the temptation is to extend it to any and all situations where one of the partners is infertile.

There are postmenopausal women who may still be sexually active.

There are many men who have had vasectomies and women who have had tubal ligations who may still be sexually active. (As a matter of fact, statistics show that 45% of people who practice birth control in the world have had sterilizations--and many of those people may live in Africa. Sterilization has been common in the third world, where people marry young, have large families, and have little access to other forms of birth control, since the Indian government began offering men free transistor radios in the 1960's if they had vasectomies.)

Can this "permission" be extended to any and all of these people who are irrevocably and permanently infertile, whether due to advanced age or hysterectomy or sterillization?

I guess that's what some are wondering.

There are actually many cases where a male or female has taken measures to reach infertility and have still conceived a child. I'm pretty sure that's probably a sign from God that their actions of sterilizing were a mistake.
I don't know of statistic, but I know of personal situations where this has happened as well.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

There are actually many cases where a male or female has taken measures to reach infertility and have still conceived a child. I'm pretty sure that's probably a sign from God that their actions of sterilizing were a mistake.
I don't know of statistic, but I know of personal situations where this has happened as well.

I know a girl that was born years after her father had received a vacsectomy. Of course they did follow ups to verify he was sterile after the surgery and yet, somehow, he had a child years later. He was still sterile too but also "open to life". This person is my father's wife and my step sister.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I wish the press would realize that the Pope is talking about the interior disposition of the person and stop misleading people. In the beginning the male prostitute is assumed to be sexually active, selfishly so given his medical condition; however, the first prangs of conscience lead the prostitute to wear a condom. The Pope says that the use of a condom is not moral, but on the scale of sinfulness it marks a beginning towards morality as the prostitute recognizes the consequences of his sexual permisiveness and begins to act in a less selfish manner. The Pope never once said that using the condom was permissible, only that it's use showed a movement towards morality in this particular instance.

helpful guide to what the Pope did and did not say.




[/indent]

None of the press that I've read has been at all confusing on that matter so....

 

[Fantine]

But the Pope has said that condoms are not effective in the battle against HIV. And that that hasn't been reported by the positively giddy press, is a disservice to all and leads all sorts of people (who don't seem to know the Catholic teachings) to jump to the idea that condoms are indeed effective tools in the fight against HIV.

And that statement, "that condoms are not effective in the battle against HIV," is what the secular media ridiculed.

Do you remember the days when nuns said if you wore patent leather shoes boys could see the reflection of your underwear?

Or when teachers told their students that they would get warts on their hands if they masturbated?

That's the category the first statement is in.

From a physiological standpoint, if people are not abstinent 100% of the time, if they have even one slip, they are less likely to contract HIV if they use a condom during that one slip.

If they have sex (with a partner who has HIV or whose HIV status is unknown) using a condom might not be morally licit, but it is safer from a public health standpoint.

Just like masturbating might not be morally licit, but it won't give you warts on your hand.

 

[AMDG]

Do you remember the days when nuns said if you wore patent leather shoes boys could see the reflection of your underwear?

Or when teachers told their students that they would get warts on their hands if they masturbated?

Nope. You must be reading anti-nun books and I can't imagine where you got the idea that teachers of old were talking about masturbation since the subjects they taught were reading, writing and arithmetic.

 

[Davidnic]

And that statement, "that condoms are not effective in the battle against HIV," is what the secular media ridiculed.

Except the Pope is not alone in his thought on that:

“We have found no consistent associations between condom use and lower HIV-infection rates, which, 25 years into the pandemic, we should be seeing if this intervention was working.”

-Edward C. Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies​

The idea that condoms actually do reduce infection rate is popularly accepted, but far from proven...even to many in the field. People want to believe it and many want it to be so because that want to justify condom use. But even academics and researches as quoted above agree with the Pope.

But the media ridicules him like he is some middle ages crank with no scientific knowledge. And this is because people believe the popular thought and do no look deeper into the research.

 

[Davidnic]

And not to turn this into a sex ed thread but anyone who has a basic idea about how the human body works knows that condoms are pretty useless at preventing the infection of many STD's if the STD is in the woman because of how the virus or bacteria is transmitted. Condoms are not designed to prevent STD's but rather to prevent conception.

There are two main types of STD's Fluid and Contact. A synthesis of studies shows that the infection rate of fluid born STD's is reduced anywhere from 99-50% with a condom. That is a huge gap across studies and can not support those who cherry pick data to claim this solid support for condoms being effective. And for contact STD's condoms are 30% effective.

So how much do they really protect...about as much as a device not designed to do that can be expected to...erratically at best. Remember they are not designed for disease prevention.

 

[Rebekka]

Anyway, even seen in the worst possible light (which I don't see it in), it would be seen like St. Augustine's argument for the toleration of prostitution to avoid greater evils.

What greater evils did he have in mind, could you give me a quote?

 

[Rebekka]

There are actually many cases where a male or female has taken measures to reach infertility and have still conceived a child. I'm pretty sure that's probably a sign from God that their actions of sterilizing were a mistake.

It may be a sign from God or it may be a medical mistake.

If you see this as a sign from God, do you see other surgeries that failed as a sign from God that the surgery was a mistake, too? And on the other hand, is a pregnancy as a result from rape a sign from God that He thinks the rape was a good idea? When is something a sign from God and when isn't it?

I know a girl that was born years after her father had received a vacsectomy. Of course they did follow ups to verify he was sterile after the surgery and yet, somehow, he had a child years later. He was still sterile too but also "open to life". This person is my father's wife and my step sister.

I hope I'm interpreting this incorrectly - is your dad married to your step sister?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I hope I'm interpreting this incorrectly - is your dad married to your step sister?

My father's wife was married previously though her first husband died. Her first husband had a vasectomy and years after this vasectomy he had another child, my step sister. As you may know, they test after a vasectomy to make sure the man is sterile and they continue testing every year in some cases to be sure. That was their situation and the girl is his daughter. This is a miracle that my step mother recognizes in her life.