Pope: Condoms Can Be Justified in Some Cases

[Rhamiel]

Why not? If you are fornicating, does using a condom add to your sin?

me and a friend had a very interesting talk about this
we were both catholic and he said that if he was to have sex outside of marriage he would use a condom, he intended to wait for marriage, this was mostly hypothetical, we went back and forth for a while, in the end it was agree to diagree kinda thing

 

[SolomonVII]

I'm not into conspiracy theories. Far from it. I just get tired of the media and all their anti-Catholic "news." I probably lashed out too much in that post, but it's amazing how many people worship misinformation.

It was readily apparent what you were saying actually, especially given the context of other peoples posts.

So I am not sure if you lashed out enough even. We rely on the media to bring us a consise summary of the most important news of the day in as fair and unbiased a way as is humanly possible. When it comes to the point that professional reporters are not doing this, and we have to go to original sources ourselves, anger is justified.

It is unprofessional to the extreme when reporters and journalists skew the news. It is akin to slander actually.
The point has arrived where much of the news we are getting in the MSM has becomes so skewed that it just can't be trusted. It is almost impossible to be too critical of the fact that this has happened.

 

[hawko]

It sounds like the Pope is encouraging homosexual sex. The Pope should have never made such a statement. I believe that he is wrong.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The one thing that seems to be overlooked in these discussions is that two men having sex is not a whole lot different then using a condom since men cannot procreate with each other and so are not open to life in the first place.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

It sounds like the Pope is encouraging homosexual sex. The Pope should have never made such a statement. I believe that he is wrong.

The Pope makes statements backed with a lot of information and the problem is that the media likes to take things out of context and many people do not want to read the whole article or learn the whole truth. The Pope always makes sure to be specific and uses supporting references to his writings like Lumen Gentium and the other Church documents that we use for Catechising.

It does appear that Yahoo has twisted what the Pope wrote.

 

[_Shannon_]

Been hearing reporters (who are positively giddy and who don't shrink at interjecting their personal opinions) report on how the Pope is now saying that condoms are okay in certain cases to prevent HIV. They say it is the "hoped for opening". Of course, it is all wrong and I imagine that quite a bit of damage has been done.

Really?? I mean do you really think that people who care about what the Church teaches in regards to their sex life have been sitting with baited breath, just waiting for someone to okay their condom usage? Or more specifically, waiting for the Church to say, okay...maybe if men have AIDS and they are prostitutes it is morally less bad to use a condom.

People who are going to contracept are going to do it. People who are not, are not somehow going to go buy a pack of Trojans because of a news report.

No harm has been done at all. People are going to make the same decisions today as they did yesterday in regards to contraception.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Really?? I mean do you really think that people who care about what the Church teaches in regards to their sex life have been sitting with baited breath, just waiting for someone to okay their condom usage?

People who are going to contracept are going to do it. People who are not, are not somehow going to go buy a pack of Trojans because of a news report.

No harm has been done at all. People are going to make the same decisions today as they did yesterday in regards to contraception.

I agree with you mostly. Those that call themselves Catholic but disagree with the Pope and Magisterium on contraception are likely to use condoms believing their conscious is some how better developed then the bearer of the Keys. These people are also likely to see false hope in a Yahoo article like this, believing that this may somehow lead to other exceptions to the use of condoms. They would be wrong, of course, but until they accept the Pope and the Magisterium as the voice of God then they will continue in their folly.

But this does not consider those that will listen to the Pope and Magisterium and do their best to adhere to the Teachings. It also does not allow for those (like myself) that eventually have their blindness removed and once seeing change their ways.

 

[AMDG]

No harm has been done at all. People are going to make the same decisions today as they did yesterday in regards to contraception.

I swear that the reporter actually said that "this is the hoped for opening." There wasn't any mention about an HIV male prostitute or that the Church's teaching about how condoms still are not the answer to the HIV problem.

It really reminds me of the time right before Humane Vitae came out. The media made it sound like the Vatican thought artificial birth control was okay. It seemed that that was exactly what the people wanted to hear. (One priest even that told me that it was Vatican approved.) Then the beautiful document Humane Vitae came out and it wasn't what the people wanted to hear (and I doubt they even gave it a fair reading--they just relied on the media again.) The Pope was villified. (My OB/GYN even had a poster on his wall ridiculing the Pope for being "out of touch".) Millions slid into disobedience and some lost the Faith. Priests in Canada published that 1973 "if you follow your conscience it's okay" (of course the media never followed up with their statement that one's conscience must be formed by the Church which is also Church teaching.) And just like Humane Vitea prophesized respect for women decreased--sometimes leading to increased violence, divorce increased, abortion became rampant because respect for life was gone, and we even slid into more and more euthanasia. Now the government wants to grow babies, abort them to harvest their stem cells!

I agree with SolomonVII:

We rely on the media to bring us a consise summary of the most important news of the day in as fair and unbiased a way as is humanly possible. When it comes to the point that professional reporters are not doing this, and we have to go to original sources ourselves, anger is justified.

It is unprofessional to the extreme when reporters and journalists skew the news. It is akin to slander actually.
The point has arrived where much of the news we are getting in the MSM has becomes so skewed that it just can't be trusted. It is almost impossible to be too critical of the fact that this has happened.

The media is causing doubt about one's Catholic Faith and what she teaches and it is evil. If you don't see it then I don't know what will have you seeing it.

 

[benedictaoo]

Why not? If you are fornicating, does using a condom add to your sin?

Because condom use is sinful when two heterosexual use it because you can not have any barriers.

For gay men-- seriously? The act itself is a barrier already... A condom being used is neither here nor there for the gay man.

If the pope says gay men may use condoms to prevent more AIDS from being spread, then, okay... what are they doing by adding to the sin by using a condom? Stifling life? Perverting the act? They are already doing that anyway...

But ppl need to know that the pope isn't condoning gay prostitution or gay sex.

Using a condom is not going to add or take away from the sin they are in fact committing.

 

[benedictaoo]

Really?? I mean do you really think that people who care about what the Church teaches in regards to their sex life have been sitting with baited breath, just waiting for someone to okay their condom usage? Or more specifically, waiting for the Church to say, okay...maybe if men have AIDS and they are prostitutes it is morally less bad to use a condom.

People who are going to contracept are going to do it. People who are not, are not somehow going to go buy a pack of Trojans because of a news report.

No harm has been done at all. People are going to make the same decisions today as they did yesterday in regards to contraception.

and that's sad... it speaks volumes to the kind of world we live in.

 

[benedictaoo]

The one thing that seems to be overlooked in these discussions is that two men having sex is not a whole lot different then using a condom since men cannot procreate with each other and so are not open to life in the first place.

Thank you.

It really doesn't take a whole lot of brains to figure this out.

The condom use is neither here nor there when it comes to gays.

What most folks may not fully realize is, the sinfulness of using a condom is the man is not allowed to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] outside the wife. Period. Whether they are infertile or not- so besides the point. Man can't do it outside the wife. That is the sin of the condom usage between heterosexuals.

When fornicating heterosexuals use a condom they are compounding their sin of unmarried sex. Gays can't compound the sin with a condom.

It really isn't brain surgery to figure this out.

 

[QuantaCura]

This is making the rounds it seems and it is very frustrating as people panic and rejoice that the Pope is supposedly changing the moral doctrine of the Church. The Pope explicitly said condoms are not a morally sound solution.

He was asked if in any cases condoms could lessen HIV transmission. It's a fact that they can lessen it if other behavior remains constant, even if less than some would believe, but that doesn't make them a morally licit means.

Second, what is a sin in regards to condoms is contraception. Male prostitutes commit the sin of sodomy. Mixing a condom into the mix doesn't change anything since the act was already 100% contraceptive. It's like wearing a condom while you touch--it's no more a sin than masturbating without one on. It doesn't add to the guilt, as far as I can tell and in the case of sodomy it may reduce the possibility of willful murder being added to the sin which already cries out to Heaven for vengeance.

Anyway, even seen in the worst possible light (which I don't see it in), it would be seen like St. Augustine's argument for the toleration of prostitution to avoid greater evils.

 

[Rhamiel]

This is making the rounds it seems and it is very frustrating as people panic and rejoice that the Pope is supposedly changing the moral doctrine of the Church. The Pope explicitly said condoms are not a morally sound solution.

He was asked if in any cases condoms could lessen HIV transmission. It's a fact that they can lessen it if other behavior remains constant, even if less than some would believe, but that doesn't make them a morally licit means.

Second, what is a sin in regards to condoms is contraception. Male prostitutes commit the sin of sodomy. Mixing a condom into the mix doesn't change anything since the act was already 100% contraceptive. It's like wearing a condom while you touch--it's no more a sin than masturbating without one on. It doesn't add to the guilt, as far as I can tell and in the case of sodomy it may reduce the possibility of willful murder being added to the sin which already cries out to Heaven for vengeance.

Anyway, even seen in the worst possible light (which I don't see it in), it would be seen like St. Augustine's argument for the toleration of prostitution to avoid greater evils.

well from this POV it would seem like it would be ok to use condoms for any homosexual act, not just the example the Holy Father gave us of the male prostitute

 

[KatherineS]

I still have not seen any evidence where any of the mainstream media reports misreported this. They seems pretty on target.

 

[Davidnic]

I still have not seen any evidence where any of the mainstream media reports misreported this. They seems pretty on target.

For me it was not so much they misreported it in facts, but they the commentary in the articles that surround the fact, the analysis was off because they just don't understand Catholic speak.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think it's pretty obvious that the media IS misunderstanding and twisting this statement.....

when you read the whole thing, Pope Benedict is saying that if a male prostitute uses condoms, that indicates a beginning of responsibility/conscience, - BUT, contraception is not morally right. It seems that the Pope is actually saying the opposite of what the media claims he said. (I'm not surprised).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I still have not seen any evidence where any of the mainstream media reports misreported this. They seems pretty on target.

I noticed they had a thread about his on the N&C E board

http://www.christianforums.com/t7514545/
Pope says condoms sometimes permissible to stop AIDS

 

[Joshua G.]

Doesn't this (in the OP) go without saying?

Aren't condoms allowable between two married people if, say, the woman has had a hysterectomy (spelling) but, say, the man or woman has some kind of STD? I guess I just assumed if contraception is not a factor at all then the prohibition on condoms doesn't apply purely for logic's sake... right?

 

[QuantaCura]

well from this POV it would seem like it would be ok to use condoms for any homosexual act, not just the example the Holy Father gave us of the male prostitute

It is--in the sense that an additional sin to that of sodomy is not committed by the wearing of a condom any more than the wearing of socks while committing sodomy.

 

[Fantine]

Why do I get the feeling that there aren't any male prostitutes in the world who have been waiting with bated breath for the Pope's permission to use condoms?

And why in the world is the media and everyone else so interested in it?

About all it does for me is to correct one fallacy. There is an admission that yes, condoms can be a very effective tool in the worldwide battle against HIV, and that makes the Pope seem more realistic and more intelligent than in his previous stance.

Abstinence, of course, is a more effective tool against HIV, and, while I think science recognizes that, it also recognizes that some young people, perhaps even most, don't have the self-discipline and self-control to be 100% abstinent all the time.

And if they aren't, even if their failure to abstain is a rare occurrence, yes, condoms are a very effective tool in the battle against HIV.