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Is some of the anti science movement to be blamed on scientists?

Psudopod

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Originally Posted by
Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7512301-14/#post56126557
Thanks! Now, considering your answer to that question, would you agree that changing the definition of planet to exclude Pluto did nothing to change our understanding of the solar system?
What does this line of questioning have to do with the Pluto vote being rigged?


Well, that’s kind of my point. The science doesn’t change, even if the vote is rigged. It doesn’t matter scientifically. You agreed when we were talking about a hypothetical decision with cars, what’s different in this case?

My main beef anyway is how it was automatically accepted here on CF -- w/o question.

I accepted it because aesthetically I prefer the idea of 8 planets to thousands of planets. I’ve never really considered Pluto on the same level as the other ones.

I deal daily with self-professed scientists who automatically dismiss miracles in the Bible; and do it because those miracles are not supported by evidence.

It would depend if those people were Christians or not. The Christians won’t dismiss them, but the atheist has no reason to accept them. You’d find the same if you surveyed plumbers or chefs or teachers.

I also deal daily with self-professed scientists who not only automatically dismiss miracles in the Bible, but do it with an air of ridicule and/or intolerance toward those who don't dismiss them.

It can happen, and I agree that’s wrong. A person’s faith should not be rediculled.

What gets me is when you guys have no idea what we're talking about, yet we're automatically wrong because evidence doesn't exist -- even when evidence isn't supposed to exist -- (q.v. my Apple Challenge).

Let’s not get into apples and false history on this thread, there are plenty of others for that J
 
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AV1611VET

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That is where I think you're wrong. All I've seen are people saying that they don't care, not that they automatically accept it.
Join Date: 5th October 2010
 
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AV1611VET

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Don't you just hate how AVET just automatically accepts Fords being called "brum brum machines"? Grrrrr.
Yup -- this is what I get for answering her, isn't it?
 
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AV1611VET

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Well, that’s kind of my point. The science doesn’t change, even if the vote is rigged. It doesn’t matter scientifically. You agreed when we were talking about a hypothetical decision with cars, what’s different in this case?
Have a good day, Psudopod.

You're not interested in understanding, and I'm not in the mood for your rhetoric.

(And I didn't read the rest of your post.)
 
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N

Nabobalis

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What does this line of questioning have to do with the Pluto vote being rigged?

My main beef anyway is how it was
automatically accepted here on CF -- w/o question.

I deal daily with self-professed scientists who
automatically dismiss miracles in the Bible; and do it because those miracles are not supported by evidence.

I also deal daily with self-professed scientists who not only
automatically dismiss miracles in the Bible, but do it with an air of ridicule and/or intolerance toward those who don't dismiss them.

What gets me is when you guys have no idea what we're talking about, yet we're
automatically wrong because evidence doesn't exist -- even when evidence isn't supposed to exist -- (q.v. my Apple Challenge).

It doesn't make sense to me; but then, not to brag, I don't think like a scientist.


I don't think you even deal with scientists on a daily basis; I can tell you that I do and have never meet a single one that you have just described.


It isn't accepted, it is just that no one cares. The definition will be changed again and probability again several times, that is how science works, it adapts when new information arises.

[FONT=&quot]You don't think like a scientist because you do not use any logic or any evidence for any of your claims. To think like a scientist means you have to claim what you can prove and not claim what you fancy.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
There is a number of responses to my post, so I will make a general response to all.

For those of you who still support the hoaxes I listed, and they were all extreme cases, lets not start with the Lemur or pin the dinosaur tail on the bird games. You are really blind to the evidence, empirical evidence, and frankly you would learn a LOT by simply Googling the subject.

For those that stated science is 'self-correcting'. Obviously, it is not.

For those that claim that no outside forces corrected these things, there are ministers debunking this garbage every day. It is science that is stopping it's ears and closing it's eyes. A good example of this is the 'No Intelligence Allowed' video. Whether you agree or disagree with ID, it is an obvious bias in science - Which debunks the whole there is not anti-God movement in science. Richard Dawkins trumpets it.

And, in conclusion, I only addressed a small, tiny fraction of the problem, from Abiogenesis teaching that all life comes from a ROCK, to the Time of the Gaps fallacy that magically turns a single cell organism into a dinosaur.

Science would be a LOT more respected if it announced, 'We do not Empirically Know', and provided hypothesis, instead of being bias towards a hypothesis, calling it a 'Theory', and trying to shove it down everyone's throat.

Good day!
smile.gif



[FONT=&quot]Those "[/FONT]hoaxes" are not all hoaxes; do you know how people find out that they are hoaxes? By finding evidence to contradict them. You do not learn a lot by goggling since you can easily find websites that are lying and most are on these subjects, mostly creationist websites to boot.

Science is self-correcting, it is how it has worked since the start and will continue to do so. Not only that you don't seem to know what Abiogenesis even is.

( I hate rushed posts but I'm late for a colloquium)
 
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sandwiches

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Have a good day, Psudopod.

You're not interested in understanding, and I'm not in the mood for your rhetoric.

(And I didn't read the rest of your post.)

Is your point that us 'immoral' atheists are accepting an 'immorally' reached decision by a 'corrupt' scientific body?
 
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Delphiki

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I don't think you even deal with scientists on a daily basis; I can tell you that I do and have never meet a single one that you have just described.


It isn't accepted, it is just that no one cares. The definition will be changed again and probability again several times, that is how science works, it adapts when new information arises.

[FONT=&quot]You don't think like a scientist because you do not use any logic or any evidence for any of your claims. To think like a scientist means you have to claim what you can prove and not claim what you fancy.[/FONT]






[FONT=&quot]Those "[/FONT]hoaxes" are not all hoaxes; do you know how people find out that they are hoaxes? By finding evidence to contradict them. You do not learn a lot by goggling since you can easily find websites that are lying and most are on these subjects, mostly creationist websites to boot.

Science is self-correcting, it is how it has worked since the start and will continue to do so. Not only that you don't seem to know what Abiogenesis even is.

( I hate rushed posts but I'm late for a colloquium)

To put it simply, any hoaxes were found to be hoaxes due to the implementation of the scientific method. Science is how we found what is and isn't a hoax.
 
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Cabal

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For those of you who still support the hoaxes I listed, and they were all extreme cases, lets not start with the Lemur or pin the dinosaur tail on the bird games.

See, this is what I was talking about. Question away, just bear in mind that we've likely heard this stuff from creationists before, and it is no less wrong than it was previously - try not to get too petulant when we point that out.

You are really blind to the evidence, empirical evidence, and frankly you would learn a LOT by simply Googling the subject.

I googled the stuff that pwned your PRATTs into the ground, does that count?

For those that stated science is 'self-correcting'. Obviously, it is not.

Obviously it is seeing as it was scientists who refuted the fakes.

For those that claim that no outside forces corrected these things, there are ministers debunking this garbage every day.

Only decades after the horse has already left the stable. Btw, it's funny how you accept the science that shows some fossils to be fake but reject the exact same science that shows your personal interpretations of the Bible to be wrong.

It is science that is stopping it's ears and closing it's eyes. A good example of this is the 'No Intelligence Allowed' video.

^_^ Really, no.

Whether you agree or disagree with ID, it is an obvious bias in science - Which debunks the whole there is not anti-God movement in science. Richard Dawkins trumpets it.

"Richard Dawkins" is not science. He is one scientist - louder, more listened to than some, but not representative of the whole.

And, in conclusion, I only addressed a small, tiny fraction of the problem, from Abiogenesis teaching that all life comes from a ROCK, to the Time of the Gaps fallacy that magically turns a single cell organism into a dinosaur.

My strawman sense is tingling.....

Science would be a LOT more respected if it announced, 'We do not Empirically Know', and provided hypothesis, instead of being bias towards a hypothesis, calling it a 'Theory', and trying to shove it down everyone's throat.

But we do empirically know, because of the evidence, which means it is a theory, not a hypothesis. No reason to lie.

Speaking of shoving things down throats, maybe creationists should work on finding some actual evidence for their claims instead of trying to shove their dogma down children's throats?
 
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Naraoia

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I don't have any prophets. Not everybody worships something. Not all of us are comfortable grovelling to imaginary beings.
Oh no... I can smell...

God can be any god; including mother nature.

[...]

So they grovel to mother nature.
... this.

I don't think AV quite understands the meanings of "grovel", "worship", "religion" and "god".

Well to address the posted question, yes, science is to blame for the lack of interest. NOT because science is not interesting, but because of the hard anti-God push that has been found over and over and over to be false, only for another false claim to be put in it's place.
Show me an example in the scientific literature of this hard anti-God push. I bet you I read more of it than you do - mostly evolution-related literature, at that -, but the only place I've seen gods even mentioned is in articles about the evolution and underlying mental structure of religion. Those articles, as a rule, make no claim about the existence of deities.

The next part of your post was utterly shredded by multiple posters, so all I will add is that even if all of these were hoaxes (what, including several hundred Neandertal individuals from newborns to the elderly, not to mention the Neandertal genome? Really? All of them?), they constitute but a fraction of the evidence put forward about human evolution - let alone evolution in general. You have a great deal of fossil evidence to expose as hoaxes. Might as well find a museum basement and get to work on it.

Science makes such huge assumptions anymore, and does not want to be questioned. There is a constant 'Time of the Gaps' Fallacy that runs through science. Don't have an answer? Throw time at it.
Would you mind providing a few specific examples? Would you also mind presenting a critique of the several independent dating methods that contributed to our knowledge of deep time?

For those of you who still support the hoaxes I listed, and they were all extreme cases, lets not start with the Lemur or pin the dinosaur tail on the bird games.
Dunno about the lemur, but Archaeoraptor never made it into a peer-reviewed publication. It was rejected by Science. (By the way, while it was a composite, parts of it belong to two quite legitimate transitional fossils. Somehow, that part never gets brought up by creationists.)

You are really blind to the evidence, empirical evidence, and frankly you would learn a LOT by simply Googling the subject.
Without critical thinking, Googling something is likely to lead you to an internet-sized pile of crap.

For those that stated science is 'self-correcting'. Obviously, it is not.

For those that claim that no outside forces corrected these things, there are ministers debunking this garbage every day. It is science that is stopping it's ears and closing it's eyes.
Ranting doesn't really help your case, you know. Show us those ministers - or show their arguments. Otherwise, you have nothing and we still have the fossils.

A good example of this is the 'No Intelligence Allowed' video.
Which is totally unbiased, right? :doh:

Whether you agree or disagree with ID, it is an obvious bias in science -
What is an obvious bias? I haven't seen Expelled (and what I heard about it doesn't make me too keen to see it), so I would rather you elaborated.

Which debunks the whole there is not anti-God movement in science. Richard Dawkins trumpets it.
Richard Dawkins is not a movement. He's one man with a loud voice, and he's hardly representative of the whole of science.

And, in conclusion, I only addressed a small, tiny fraction of the problem, from Abiogenesis teaching that all life comes from a ROCK
Which it doesn't... (feel free to explore; though I suspect that that site is slightly outdated)

...to the Time of the Gaps fallacy that magically turns a single cell organism into a dinosaur.
Geez, that's so garbled I don't even know where to start.

Science would be a LOT more respected if it announced, 'We do not Empirically Know', and provided hypothesis, instead of being bias towards a hypothesis, calling it a 'Theory', and trying to shove it down everyone's throat.
I have to question your familiarity with science.

I've been known to grump about the quality of science news articles, but even in those, you often see caveats and signs of uncertainty. Here's one that I picked randomly, by going to ScienceDaily and clicking on the first headline (it's a very interesting article, incidentally). Notice how it uses words like "may" (in the title, hello!), "suggests", "hints", and how the researchers caution in it that "there still remain big questions..."

That's fairly standard practice in the news, and in actual papers, (1) every conclusion is usually accompanied by the specific piece(s) of empirical information that made the author(s) conclude it, and (2) alternative explanations are routinely considered. As a rule, scientists are reasonably honest about the uncertain nature of their work. When they aren't, you can guarantee that some other scientist will jump on the opportunity to dismantle their arguments.

From which you should be able to guess that when the vast majority of scientists agree that a finding is pretty solid, it's saying something about said finding.

Good day! :)
"I've just written two posts insulting your entire profession. By the way, have a nice day!"

Well, you too :wave:
 
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HAPMinistries

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Since I have so many fans I can not reply to just one post, so as you see your quote, smile.

*Note - Before I start, to those who do not believe in God, my end result and hope for you is to walk streets of Gold and eternal happiness, so if you believe I am an 'enemy', then I am an enemy that would torture you with eternal joy with no pain or sorrow, so try not to take the things that I say personally.


1 - Then PLEASE show us the "real evidence".

(here's where they usually break down)


I guess I am breaking down to say, as you read my last conclusion: "Science would be a LOT more respected if it announced, 'We do not Empirically Know'..."

The problem is the LACK of evidence that a general hypothesis becomes a Thesis by Bias Corruption, and has nothing to do with real evidence or science.

Here is an example for you
Have you or mankind in general observed 1 million years?
Have you or mankind in general observed 100,000 years?

Because if the answer is no, then ANYTHING that is proposed over that amount of time would be a HYPOTHESIS. ANYTHING.

And if you believe you have observed either of these amounts of times, you are a Fruitcake.


2 Those "hoaxes" are not all hoaxes; do you know how people find out that they are hoaxes? By finding evidence to contradict them.

Like finding out the teeth have been ground down with a file. THAT would not be a hoax at all, it was an evolutionary thing...

You deserve an award for that statement.

3 To put it simply, any hoaxes were found to be hoaxes due to the implementation of the scientific method. Science is how we found what is and isn't a hoax.

Yes, it was the scientific method that discovered the file marks...

You deserve an award too.

4 The Fallacy Kind!

See, this is what I was talking about. Question away, just bear in mind that we've likely heard this stuff from creationists before, and it is no less wrong than it was previously - try not to get too petulant when we point that out.

ad hominem

I googled the stuff that pwned your PRATTs into the ground, does that count?

ad hominem

Only decades after the horse has already left the stable. Btw, it's funny how you accept the science that shows some fossils to be fake but reject the exact same science that shows your personal interpretations of the bible to be wrong.

...did I accept a fossil? If I did, where is it? I need to put it in storage.

My strawman sense is tingling.....

really? AHEM Btw, it's funny how you accept the science that shows some fossils to be fake but reject the exact same science that shows your personal interpretations of the bible to be wrong.


But we do empirically know

Did you are saying that you have observed 1 million years passed?


5 Show me an example in the scientific literature of this hard anti-God push.

Show me a pink elephant in yellow underwear fluent in Spanish.
Ohhh, wait, ONLY Scientific Literature is Authoritative!
lol argumentum ad verecundiam

6 The next part of your post was utterly shredded by multiple posters

Um, no not really...

7 Would you mind providing a few specific examples?


Sure, have you ever observed 1 million years? Because if not, ANYTHING you would say on the subject would be a hypothesis.

8 Dunno about the lemur, but archaeoraptor never made it into a peer-reviewed publication.

Just National Geographic.

9 Ranting doesn't really help your case, you know.

ad hominem

10 Which is totally unbiased, right?


Like National Geographic?

11 What is an obvious bias? I haven't seen Expelled (and what I heard about it doesn't make me too keen to see it), so I would rather you elaborated.

Ever buy an issue of National Geographic?

12 Geez, that's so garbled I don't even know where to start.

So far by creating a fallacy, and then debunking the fallacy you created. That would be my guess what you will do.

13 "I've just written two posts insulting your entire profession. By the way, have a nice day!"


Try getting a better job.



And so concludes this edition of WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING.
 
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sandwiches

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Since I have so many fans I can not reply to just one post, so as you see your quote, smile.

*Note - Before I start, to those who do not believe in God, my end result and hope for you is to walk streets of Gold and eternal happiness, so if you believe I am an 'enemy', then I am an enemy that would torture you with eternal joy with no pain or sorrow, so try not to take the things that I say personally.


1 - Then PLEASE show us the "real evidence".

(here's where they usually break down)


I guess I am breaking down to say, as you read my last conclusion: "Science would be a LOT more respected if it announced, 'We do not Empirically Know'..."

The problem is the LACK of evidence that a general hypothesis becomes a Thesis by Bias Corruption, and has nothing to do with real evidence or science.

Here is an example for you
Have you or mankind in general observed 1 million years?
Have you or mankind in general observed 100,000 years?

Because if the answer is no, then ANYTHING that is proposed over that amount of time would be a HYPOTHESIS. ANYTHING.

And if you believe you have observed either of these amounts of times, you are a Fruitcake.


2 Those "hoaxes" are not all hoaxes; do you know how people find out that they are hoaxes? By finding evidence to contradict them.

Like finding out the teeth have been ground down with a file. THAT would not be a hoax at all, it was an evolutionary thing...

You deserve an award for that statement.

3 To put it simply, any hoaxes were found to be hoaxes due to the implementation of the scientific method. Science is how we found what is and isn't a hoax.

Yes, it was the scientific method that discovered the file marks...

You deserve an award too.

4 The Fallacy Kind!

See, this is what I was talking about. Question away, just bear in mind that we've likely heard this stuff from creationists before, and it is no less wrong than it was previously - try not to get too petulant when we point that out.

ad hominem

I googled the stuff that pwned your PRATTs into the ground, does that count?

ad hominem

Only decades after the horse has already left the stable. Btw, it's funny how you accept the science that shows some fossils to be fake but reject the exact same science that shows your personal interpretations of the bible to be wrong.

...did I accept a fossil? If I did, where is it? I need to put it in storage.

My strawman sense is tingling.....

really? AHEM Btw, it's funny how you accept the science that shows some fossils to be fake but reject the exact same science that shows your personal interpretations of the bible to be wrong.


But we do empirically know

Did you are saying that you have observed 1 million years passed?


5 Show me an example in the scientific literature of this hard anti-God push.

Show me a pink elephant in yellow underwear fluent in Spanish.
Ohhh, wait, ONLY Scientific Literature is Authoritative!
lol argumentum ad verecundiam

6 The next part of your post was utterly shredded by multiple posters

Um, no not really...

7 Would you mind providing a few specific examples?


Sure, have you ever observed 1 million years? Because if not, ANYTHING you would say on the subject would be a hypothesis.

8 Dunno about the lemur, but archaeoraptor never made it into a peer-reviewed publication.

Just National Geographic.

9 Ranting doesn't really help your case, you know.

ad hominem

10 Which is totally unbiased, right?


Like National Geographic?

11 What is an obvious bias? I haven't seen Expelled (and what I heard about it doesn't make me too keen to see it), so I would rather you elaborated.

Ever buy an issue of National Geographic?

12 Geez, that's so garbled I don't even know where to start.

So far by creating a fallacy, and then debunking the fallacy you created. That would be my guess what you will do.

13 "I've just written two posts insulting your entire profession. By the way, have a nice day!"


Try getting a better job.



And so concludes this edition of WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING.

Uncanny. You managed to respond all questions without addressing a single one of the points of said questions.
 
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Cabal

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Like have you observed 1 million years?
Responding to a question like that?

Wonderful, we've got one of those "if you didn't see it then you can't claim it happened" people.

So presumably you think all those convicted on the strength of forensic evidence should be set free?
 
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HAPMinistries

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Wonderful, we've got one of those "if you didn't see it then you can't claim it happened" people.

So presumably you think all those convicted on the strength of forensic evidence should be set free?

So you believe forensic evidence for a convict gives people the right to put Ota Benga in a zoo?
 
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Cabal

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*Note - Before I start, to those who do not believe in God, my end result and hope for you is to walk streets of Gold and eternal happiness, so if you believe I am an 'enemy', then I am an enemy that would torture you with eternal joy with no pain or sorrow, so try not to take the things that I say personally.

We don't. You're just wrong.

That said, do try not make sweeping remarks about a profession that you demonstrably have no understanding of, seeing as the board is largely populated by scientists.

I googled the stuff that pwned your PRATTs into the ground, does that count?

ad hominem

And clearly you don't know what an ad hominem is. It is a personal remark made in place of an actual argument. Seeing as the above was neither personal and I already addressed your argument in my previous post, it is not an ad hominem.

Brush up on logic 101. :wave:

Only decades after the horse has already left the stable. Btw, it's funny how you accept the science that shows some fossils to be fake but reject the exact same science that shows your personal interpretations of the bible to be wrong.

...did I accept a fossil? If I did, where is it? I need to put it in storage.

It was science that showed these fossils to be fake, not creationists. So why do you accept that science and not the science showing old earth and common descent?

But we do empirically know
Did you are saying that you have observed 1 million years passed?

No, I said we empirically know. You're operating under the misapprehension that we need to observe a million years in order to determine that a million years has passed.

5 Show me an example in the scientific literature of this hard anti-God push.

Show me a pink elephant in yellow underwear fluent in Spanish.
Ohhh, wait, ONLY Scientific Literature is Authoritative!
lol argumentum ad verecundiam

You don't seem to know what that fallacy is either. It wasn't an appeal to authority, it was a request that you back up your claim. What a few scientists like Dawkins say on their book circuits is quite far removed from what actually is discussed in the scientific literature - and it is as Naraoia said. God simply isn't mentioned, rather than it being anti-God.

13 "I've just written two posts insulting your entire profession. By the way, have a nice day!"[/B]

Try getting a better job.

He said, on a computer. Show a bit of gratitude given how much you benefit from science.

And so concludes this edition of WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING.

It can be summarised by "Yawn-o-rama, another creationist way out of his depth".
 
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Cabal

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So you believe forensic evidence for a convict gives people the right to put Ota Benga in a zoo?

Not at all - it merely shows your objection to evolution to be utterly inconsistent given that you accept the same kind of scientific application in criminology.
 
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HAPMinistries

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That said, do try not make sweeping remarks about a profession that you demonstrably have no understanding of, seeing as the board is largely populated by scientists.

You should get a better job.


And clearly you don't know what an ad hominem is. It is a personal remark made in place of an actual argument. Seeing as the above was neither personal and I already addressed your argument in my previous post, it is not an ad hominem.

Brush up on logic 101. :wave:


ad hominem


It was science that showed these fossils to be fake, not creationists. So why do you accept that science and not the science showing old earth and common descent?

It was a person who noticed that it was filed. Does it take a scientist to discover that? nope, but one sure can be fooled by it.


No, I said we empirically know. You're operating under the misapprehension that we need to observe a million years in order to determine that a million years has passed.

Do decide that one species can become a completely different species, YES you do, OR to decide that life can come from a ROCK over a million or few years, YES, you do.

LOL, You DEFINITELY deserve an award for that comment.


You don't seem to know what that fallacy is either. It wasn't an appeal to authority, it was a request that you back up your claim.

Yes, but the requirement was narrowed wasn't it to a certain authority.
Like if I said, Show me 5 places in the alphabet where it says 2+2=4. Just because the alphabet does not contain this math equation, does not make the equation wrong.

aka a FALLACY



He said, on a computer. Show a bit of gratitude given how much you benefit from science.

Benefit from science?
Sadly you do not know the difference between science and Naturalism. Science is unbiased. Naturalism is a fruit loop religion that believes all life came from a rock and man came from a monkey.

It can be summarised by "Yawn-o-rama, another creationist way out of his depth".

Funny, if I am out of my depth, then why am I right?
 
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HAPMinistries

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Not at all - it merely shows your objection to evolution to be utterly inconsistent given that you accept the same kind of scientific application in criminology.

Really, then can you show me just 1 time mankind has EVER observed one species evolve into a completely different species?

Just 1?

Throughout the history of mankind, has this ever been observed 1 time?

Because if you want to have a respected hypothesis, you should at least observe it happen 1 time, right?
 
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