Reconciling Judaism, Chrisitianity, and the Messianic faith.

[ChavaK]

This is an offshoot from another thread here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7510379/
In it, the following statement was made:

A lot (if not most) of the people raised as Jews who meet Jesus find the Messianic movement difficult to reconcile with their Jewish upbringing.

I asked this question:

Why is that so? Why would a Jew have issues reconciling
the Messianic faith with their Jewish upbringing, but have no
issue with reconciling Christianity with it?

So as to not sidetrack that thread, let's continue to conversation here...
and not let it get "hijacked" as Contra fears

 

[anisavta]

I'm always baffled by the "a lot if not most..." statement. I go to a Messianic synagogue associated with a large Messianic Union of which there are many Jews who grew up practicing Judaism from Orthodox to Reform. When confronted with Yeshua as Messiah and their accepting that reality, although they did have to reconcile some rabbinic doctrine with their new found convictions, find the expression of Messianic Judaism fulfilling. Where are the stats to back up these other statements?

 

[ChavaK]

. Where are the stats to back up these other statements?

I suspect it is from Contra's personal experiences.
Hopefully he will come and tell us....

 

[Heber]

Historically, what CM says is correct - I'm not sure about this point in time, however, but it would not surprise me if the numbers were quite high.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I'm a Jewish believer raised conservative/reform'ish. I don't understand the question, can you clarify?

Marc

 

[ChavaK]

I'm a Jewish believer raised conservative/reform'ish. I don't understand the question, can you clarify?

Marc

I will try. In a different thread, this statement was made:

A lot (if not most) of the people raised as Jews who meet Jesus find the Messianic movement difficult to reconcile with their Jewish upbringing.

Now, I am not exactly sure I understand that statement either.
My question is, why would someone who was raised Jewish have
difficulty accepting the Messianic movement ("reconciling it with their
Jewish upbringing"), but have no problem with accepting Christianity?

 

[yonah_mishael]

I'm a Jewish believer raised conservative/reform'ish. I don't understand the question, can you clarify?

Marc

Why does your avatar say Rehovot? I live in Rehovot!

 

[visionary]

One of the greatest attractions to the Messianic faith is their adherence to the Word as they read it in the Torah.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I will try. In a different thread, this statement was made:


Now, I am not exactly sure I understand that statement either.
My question is, why would someone who was raised Jewish have
difficulty accepting the Messianic movement ("reconciling it with their
Jewish upbringing"), but have no problem with accepting Christianity?

Ok I was born, raised in Philadelphia. My congregation is Beth Yeshua located 2 blocks from where I grew up. My neighborhood at that time was a Jewish neighborhood in Philly. We lived on the border of the Main Line which that part of the Main Line was and still is heavily populated with Jews. When Beth Yeshua opened it's doors you can't imagine the turmoils. My parents told me those people believe in 2 God's. There were protests and the like.

So you can imagine the confusion, what I was told from my up bringing by my parents and rabbi's and a whole bunch of others when I accepted Yeshua, the One who Moses in the Torah and the prophets wrote about.

Marc

 

[anisavta]

So what about now? You're going to BY. Has the confusion been cleared up? Are you comfortable with Messianic Judaism or would you rather attend a Christian church?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

So what about now? You're going to BY. Has the confusion been cleared up? Are you comfortable with Messianic Judaism or would you rather attend a Christian church?

That was 4 years ago. I'm way past confusion.

Marc

 

[yonah_mishael]

Nu, Marc..... Is there a reason your avatar says Rehovot (רחובו&#1514?

 

[ContraMundum]

ChavaK, I'm pretty surprised you started this thread considering this topic has been broached before.

Our friend simchat_t gave us all the stats from a few sources last time. I based my comments on not only that but my own experience.

 

[ContraMundum]

Historically, what CM says is correct - I'm not sure about this point in time, however, but it would not surprise me if the numbers were quite high.

To be honest I think those stats will change due to the converts to the Faith in Israel, which (IMHO) is where legitimate "Messianic" congregations are and where the worldwide movement should take its lead (when they get rid of the pentecostal influence, God willing)

I think there is no geniune theological or historical connection between Judaism and the Messianic movement as it is stands in the US and the UK. MJism in the West theologically and historically has very little in common with Judaism, which is why every Jew I personally know (three of whom are now Anglican or Orthodox priests) who knows Jesus doesn't seem to last in the local MJ congregations, even though we all visit them and support them morally. It all seems a little fake and weird to us. The connection is largely superficial.

I've written about this on this forum many times, and while I think a lot of Jews are involved with MJism for a time, ultimately, when you are introduced to ancient Christian orthodoxy, you see a real and authentic link between Christianity and Judaism that was hidden from you before (mostly by protestants inside and outside of MJism) and you will never look back.

 

[Heber]

To be honest I think those stats will change due to the converts to the Faith in Israel, which (IMHO) is where legitimate "Messianic" congregations are and where the worldwide movement should take its lead (when they get rid of the pentecostal influence, God willing)

I think there is no geniune theological or historical connection between Judaism and the Messianic movement as it is stands in the US and the UK. MJism in the West theologically and historically has very little in common with Judaism, which is why every Jew I personally know (three of whom are now Anglican or Orthodox priests) who knows Jesus doesn't seem to last in the local MJ congregations, even though we all visit them and support them morally. It all seems a little fake and weird to us. The connection is largely superficial.

I've written about this on this forum many times, and while I think a lot of Jews are involved with MJism for a time, ultimately, when you are introduced to ancient Christian orthodoxy, you see a real and authentic link between Christianity and Judaism that was hidden from you before (mostly by protestants inside and outside of MJism) and you will never look back.

CM - yes, I agree, seems obvious to me from my research in connected areas but I just do not have any recent stats to actually quote folk. There are also a number of other turn-offs in many Messianic congregations that see Jews depart fairly quickly.

 

[yedida]

Heber,
What are those other turn-offs? I really would be interested in knowing.

 

[ContraMundum]

Now, I am not exactly sure I understand that statement either.
My question is, why would someone who was raised Jewish have
difficulty accepting the Messianic movement ("reconciling it with their
Jewish upbringing"), but have no problem with accepting Christianity?

It really boils down to the question of authority and stability I think.

The Messianic movement, while ostensibly Christian, has many radical elements within it that seek to undermine the Christian faith and who tend to almost mimic Judaism but do not actually come from a Jewish foundation. So, while claiming to not be Christian yet holding to the basic tenets of Christianity they come across as rather bizzarre.

Case in point: there is some nut called Michael Rood out there. He is not halachically Jewish, yet he claims he is a Messianic teacher. He came out of a cult called "The Way" who have a spiritual trail of wreckage and destroyed lives a mile long. He uses all the silly phrases like "Gentile thinking" and so forth to make out like he knows what he's talking about. But, the over-use of Jewish symbolism and odd phrases like the above screams "fake" to me. So, while the guy claims to be "Messianic" and speaking the truth about Jesus etc., the truth is that he has no authority whatsoever to do so and no actual legitimate connection to anything.

This is becoming all too common.

One thing I think myself and other Jewish Christians I know like is a decent genealogy. We like to know where things come from- it's a very Biblical idea, that. With a normal Christian Church, you can do a little history test and see how they are linked back to the founder, Jesus Christ. We can trace their teachings, minhagim and halacha (so to speak) if we care to. A lot of churches come through ok on this test, and some have no connection at all (eg. JWs, and this guy I mentioned above) When I see certain things done and taught that I can prove come from the foundation of the religion, I can have confidence in them. I think there is something instinctive in myself and the other Jews I know that says "if you're going to get on another bus make sure the driver has a license"

This is why I think ultimately, I can feel more comfortable in a church with ancient roots and traditions as a Jew then I can in one that merely adopts the appearance of being Jewish. I want a rock, not sand, as my foundation.

I could go on, but I'll end up preaching and although I will enjoy it I'm sure others here will not.

Please understand that I believe that the MJ movement has some very important things to do for the Church- but there are some spiritual/moral lessons they must learn as a movement first. This is why I support my local MJ congregation with prayer and good wishes (hardly any Jews in that group, BTW) They will come along in due time, as those who seek the Holy Spirit always do.

 

[ContraMundum]

CM - yes, I agree, seems obvious to me from my research in connected areas but I just do not have any recent stats to actually quote folk.

I'm interested in the latest stats too. If you stumble on any, post them if you can.

There are also a number of other turn-offs in many Messianic congregations that see Jews depart fairly quickly.

A-men to that!

 

[Heber]

Certainly in the UK, as I have said a number of times on this forum, the simple fact that in many 'Messianic Jewish' fellowships, most are Gentiles trying to be more Jewish than Jews, and failing, is a great stumbling block. I've heard accounts from people I trust implicitly, of Gentiles who lay tefillin etc etc and live more orthodox lives than orthodox Jews, and run a congregation that teaches other Gentiles to do the same - and not a real Jew in sight!

For a Jew who has just discovered Yeshua and so heads off to the average MJ fellowship it would quite laughable - I certainly find some of the theological gobblededook that passes for a sermon or 'Messianic' talk to be bordering on the hilarious. Having said that, there are exceptions where the theology is worked out and a Jew / Christian balance is held together and both Jews and Christians remain in the congregation. Over here, anyone (and I mean anyone) can start an MJ fellowship and call themselves Rabbi, with no education in either Judaism or Christianity and, almost certainly, no qualifications in pastoral care! Why do Jews turn to the church - a combination of CM's reasons, and mine.

It may well be different in other countries - I haven't researched outside the UK and so cannot comment on what may happen where you live except to note that we had someone on here a few days ago looking for a decent MJ fellowship and it was some self proclaimed leader operating out his printing business premises - so maybe it is much wider than just in the UK.


PLEASE NOTE - CM and I HAVE NOT COLLABORATED OVER THESE RESPONSES! BOTH BEING LEADERS, WE FIND VERY MUCH THE SAME THINGS GOING ON.

 

[ContraMundum]

Well said Heber.

You noted the importance of pastoral care- that is a hugely important point!

A person who has just decided to follow Christ at enormous personal cost needs serious pastoral help. He doesn't need someone to tell him to slap tefillin on and say the Shema and it will all be ok- this isn't Chabad, chances are he's already tried that and decided Jesus was better.