Didn't they know?

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

The ark was not a ship, it was a large box with a superstrong honeycomb structure that gave it enormous strength. With it's load, perhaps including ballast, it was very heavy and floated low in the water, thus not subject to the same stresses encountered by a 'ship'. It's probable location, on a slope above the plain, meant that the flood waters would be rising relatively slowly when they reached it, and even slower as it was propelled up the slope of the mountains of Ararat.

This is pretty different from the flood models of ICR
PATTERNS OF OCEAN CIRCULATION OVER THE CONTINENTS DURING NOAH'S FLOOD
"A surprising yet persistent feature in these calculations is the appearance of high velocity currents generated and sustained by the earth's rotation above the flooded continents. Water velocities in the deeper ocean by contrast are much smaller in magnitude. The patterns typically include strong cyclonic gyres at high latitudes with water velocities on the order of 40-80 m/s."

No boat that was ever made could survive a 40 meter/second whirlpool.

I have noticed that whenever YECs need a violent flood to do something they say it was a violent flood and when they need a gentle slowly moving flood for an other explanation they say it was a gentle flood. How you get thousands of feet of water in 40 days from a gentle flood with slowly rising water is another question that is never answered.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

The ark was not a ship, it was a large box with a superstrong honeycomb structure that gave it enormous strength.

You also need room for several thousand animals in among all this honeycomb structure.

With it's load, perhaps including ballast, it was very heavy and floated low in the water, thus not subject to the same stresses encountered by a 'ship'.

Fully loaded vessels that are low in the water are much more likely to sink in a storm. Consider the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

The load is there and will cause flexing of the wood even if the boat is low in the water. Remember that it also has to survive several feet of global rain every hour for 960 hours. (Of course several inches of global rain every hour is impossible, let alone several feet but that is a different falsification of myth and not the subject of this thread)

It's probable location, on a slope above the plain, meant that the flood waters would be rising relatively slowly when they reached it, and even slower as it was propelled up the slope of the mountains of Ararat. It traveled approximately 500 miles before coming to rest. It's construction would have been known through the entire civilized world, much like the pyramids of Egypt. Thousands would have been employed in it's construction under the direction of Noah as general contractor.

No doubt using dinosaur cranes just like Fred Flintstone.

Materials, artisans, and laborers would have been brought from all over the region. Like in Egypt cities would have sprung up at the ark's building site to house and provide for the living needs of the workers, who would be on the job for decades, as well as perhaps their children.

Who all got to drown in the flood. Nice.

Of course the bible doesn't tells us all this. We have to fill in the blanks with reasonable assumptions. If we don't do this we (you) cannot understand anything fully.

You have total fantasy confused with reasonable assumptions. Where do all these people come from less than 2000 years after the creation of the earth with only two people on it? How did Noah pay for all this? I thought all the people on earth except Noah and family were really evil at this time. Nice of them to help him build this big boat so he could sail off while they all drowned.

 

[AV1611VET]

This is pretty different from the flood models of ICR

You know, Frumious, I get the impression that you guys get your theology from websites that you don't particularly care for; instead of gracing the inside of a church or actually reading the Bible yourself.

Now -- I could be wrong; but I do get the impression that you guys spend some time on these sites; then you come here thinking we are going to debate what these other sites have to say.

Then, when we don't, we get this you-worship-the-bible, or you have your own interpretation, or some such accusation.

I've been noticing that I'm being accused at times of making things up -- when it's clearly taught as basic doctrine.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

You know, Frumious, I get the impression that you guys get your theology from websites that you don't particularly care for; instead of gracing the inside of a church or actually reading the Bible yourself.

Now -- I could be wrong; but I do get the impression that you guys spend some time on these sites; then you come here thinking we are going to debate what these other sites have to say.

I was raised in the Methodist church and have read and studied the Bible. I also read creationist sites and various flood models and have debated creationists for a long time. I have seen creationist claim the flood was gentle and that it was violent enough to sort thousands of feet of sediments by some magic process and transport sediments over long distances. They can't both be right but they can both be wrong.

I have seem the same creationists who claim there were no mountains before the flood explain the sorting of the fossil record in thousands of feet of sediments by saying different ecological zones existed at different elevations on or some animals ran further up those mountains that didn't exist before the flood.

Then, when we don't, we get this you-worship-the-bible, or you have your own interpretation, or some such accusation.

You have some interpretations I have never seen before and I have been around a while. Maybe you didn't make them up but whoever did is pretty "out there"

I've been noticing that I'm being accused at times of making things up -- when it's clearly taught as basic doctrine.

Really? Embedded age is basic doctrine? Not any any church I ever attended. You get accused of making things up because you appear to many of us to make things up as you go along.

 

[AV1611VET]

I was raised in the Methodist church and have read and studied the Bible.

And what did the Wesley's teach about the Flood that you find 'out there'?

 

[Targ]

I have noticed that whenever YECs need a violent flood to do something they say it was a violent flood and when they need a gentle slowly moving flood for an other explanation they say it was a gentle flood.

I've noticed this also.

One of the ideas that really makes me chuckle in Morris and Whitcomb's "The Genesis Flood" is when they state that there would have been massive tectonic activity causing lava balls to shoot through the water. And yet, they want us to believe that a dove could go and find an undamaged twig after the flood and that complete skeletons could lay down in one spot, without the bones being moved around and pulverised by the water pressure, tectonic activity, heat, continental drift etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

I've noticed this also.

One of the ideas that really makes me chuckle in Morris and Whitcomb's "The Genesis Flood" is when they state that there would have been massive tectonic activity causing lava balls to shoot through the water. And yet, they want us to believe that a dove could go and find an undamaged twig after the flood and that complete skeletons could lay down in one spot, without the bones being moved around and pulverised by the water pressure, tectonic activity, heat, continental drift etc.

That's what happens when a theologian tries to bring science into the picture.

They get what they deserve, I guess.

In my opinion, they need to stick to the miraculous, and science can take a hike.

 

[Nathan Poe]

That's what happens when a theologian tries to bring science into the picture.

They get what they deserve, I guess.

In my opinion, they need to stick to the miraculous, and science can take a hike.

Fair enough -- once you've committed yourself to "Goddidit," there's no longer any point bringing any rationality into the picture.

Might was well Flood the Earth with strawberry custard at that point -- just say God cleaned up the mess.

 

[AV1611VET]

Might was well Flood the Earth with strawberry custard at that point -- just say God cleaned up the mess.

Nope -- I can't do that.

Maybe an allegorist can, but that's not an option available to me.

I'm a literalist, remember?

We're very limited in what variables we can and cannot use.

In fact, I would say we are more limited than anyone else around.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

And what did the Wesley's teach about the Flood that you find 'out there'?

I am talking about what you believe not what Wesley taught. I don't recall any teaching about God "cleaning up the mess after the flood". I also don't recall hearing anything about embedded age or maturity without history or about the ark starting out somewhere far from the Middle East or many other things I have heard from you that I don't have time to dig up right now. Also Wesley died in 1791 well before Christian Geologists had falsified the global flood and young earth.
History of the Collapse of Flood Geology and a Young Earth
You might also remember that Methodists believe that reason is needed to read and interpret scripture so he might have had a different opinion were he alive today.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Nope -- I can't do that.

Maybe an allegorist can, but that's not an option available to me.

I'm a literalist, remember?

We're very limited in what variables we can and cannot use.

In fact, I would say we are more limited than anyone else around.

Not at all -- you have no problems whatsoever adding things to the Bible if the Bible doesn't explicitly say they didn't happen, so as long as God is cleaning up the mess and sending the excess flood waters to Neptune as a warning to would-be renegade angels, why not add strawberry custard as well?

 

[sfs]

I am talking about what you believe not what Wesley taught. I don't recall any teaching about God "cleaning up the mess after the flood". I also don't recall hearing anything about embedded age or maturity without history or about the ark starting out somewhere far from the Middle East or many other things I have heard from you that I don't have time to dig up right now.

Well, no, the Wesleys didn't actually teach those things, but those are embedded beliefs that have since become historically true about the Wesleys' teaching. Or something like that.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Noah was clearly a man of substance and great reputation in his day. He was able to gather the best advisors when designing and gathering materials for the project, which may have taken decades before the actual construction began. Materials, tools, and building methods would have been gathered and developed prior to construction, as they are today with similiar ground-breaking projects. Miscellaneous replies to critical statements: The 'rooms' in the ark that housed the creatures provided the 'honeycomb' structure. There is no biblical evidence for how much rain fell per hour. It stopped after 40 days. Flood waters contain fast AND slow moving currents, effected mostly by the topography over which it is flowing, and it's direction of flow. Rainfall would have run downslope to the sea, but when the 'fountains of the deep' were 'broken up' the water came from seaward inland. It's rate of flow/rise can be calculated using time and ultimate depth. Reviewing the topography of the Mesopotamian plain indicates a rather gentle flood, whereas hilly or mountainous regions would see more violent flood action. All criticisms of my assumptions regarding the flood story so far are based on fallacious strawman arguments, disbelief, or ignorance of the literal story itself. The reasonableness of my assumptions, as a believer of the story, still stand.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

One more answer concerning acquisition of materials from afar. If Noah, or his agents, found a special source of materials needed for the ark in a faraway land, would a 'trade route' have to be developed (over decades or centuries) in order for him to acquire these materials? Of course not. The supplier would get them there anyway.

 

[Son of the King]

This is pretty different from the flood models of ICR
PATTERNS OF OCEAN CIRCULATION OVER THE CONTINENTS DURING NOAH'S FLOOD
"A surprising yet persistent feature in these calculations is the appearance of high velocity currents generated and sustained by the earth's rotation above the flooded continents. Water velocities in the deeper ocean by contrast are much smaller in magnitude. The patterns typically include strong cyclonic gyres at high latitudes with water velocities on the order of 40-80 m/s."

No boat that was ever made could survive a 40 meter/second whirlpool.

I have noticed that whenever YECs need a violent flood to do something they say it was a violent flood and when they need a gentle slowly moving flood for an other explanation they say it was a gentle flood. How you get thousands of feet of water in 40 days from a gentle flood with slowly rising water is another question that is never answered.

Just a couple things that might be worth considering here. First God Himself gave Noah the specs for the ark, that could of very well included braces ect. If Noah followed the specs given to him by God Himself then I personally would jump in that ark instantly and not worry one bit about the most viloent flood. You say you have read the Bible then your aware God Himself closed the door to the ark. Was God on the inside with them all? Jesue spoke to the waters "Be still". God could of easily made it smooth sailing for the whole duration of the flood for the ark. I know its saying God did it. But God is involved.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Just a couple things that might be worth considering here. First God Himself gave Noah the specs for the ark, that could of very well included braces ect.

Well, as long as we're adding things that aren't specifically mentioned in the Bible, then I guess strawberry custard is back on the table -- so to speak.

 

[Son of the King]

Well, as long as we're adding things that aren't specifically mentioned in the Bible, then I guess strawberry custard is back on the table -- so to speak.

"Could very well have" "maybe" Main point I was making was God is involved.

 

[Gracchus]

Well, this thread is pretty funny, but it is not quite as hilarious as "break-dancing Greenland".

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Noah was clearly a man of substance and great reputation in his day. He was able to gather the best advisors when designing and gathering materials for the project, which may have taken decades before the actual construction began. Materials, tools, and building methods would have been gathered and developed prior to construction, as they are today with similiar ground-breaking projects. Miscellaneous replies to critical statements: The 'rooms' in the ark that housed the creatures provided the 'honeycomb' structure.

The great thing about being a creationist is you can just make things up as you go along.

There is no biblical evidence for how much rain fell per hour. It stopped after 40 days.

You need enough water to cover the tops of the mountains in 960 hours. Everest is 29,000 feet high so you need about 30 feet of rain an hour from somewhere for 960 hours. You aren't going to get that from slowly rising water.

Flood waters contain fast AND slow moving currents, effected mostly by the topography over which it is flowing, and it's direction of flow.

And somehow the ark floats around for a year and only experiences the slow ones. Or maybe God just put it in a hyperspace bubble during the flood.

Rainfall would have run downslope to the sea, but when the 'fountains of the deep' were 'broken up' the water came from seaward inland. It's rate of flow/rise can be calculated using time and ultimate depth.

Right, 30 feet per hour. Hardly gentle.

Reviewing the topography of the Mesopotamian plain indicates a rather gentle flood, whereas hilly or mountainous regions would see more violent flood action.

Iran and Iraq but have some significant mountains. Water running from them during several feet of rain an hour would have created massive currents. I guess you disagree with AV and think the Ark did start out in Mesopotamia and just happened to land near there after floating around for a year.

All criticisms of my assumptions regarding the flood story so far are based on fallacious strawman arguments, disbelief, or ignorance of the literal story itself. The reasonableness of my assumptions, as a believer of the story, still stand.

All your assumptions are ad-hoc, based on no understanding of what happens when major flooding occurs and no understanding of the mechanical properties of wood and the tendency of wooden vessels to flex and leak even when braced.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Just a couple things that might be worth considering here. First God Himself gave Noah the specs for the ark, that could of very well included braces ect. If Noah followed the specs given to him by God Himself then I personally would jump in that ark instantly and not worry one bit about the most viloent flood. You say you have read the Bible then your aware God Himself closed the door to the ark. Was God on the inside with them all? Jesue spoke to the waters "Be still". God could of easily made it smooth sailing for the whole duration of the flood for the ark. I know its saying God did it. But God is involved.

The great thing about being a creationist is you can just make things up as you go along and when all else fails rely on Goddidit.