Biblical Truth: Christ Jesus is not God.

[Evergreen48]

That is not what you said! You made a blanket statement "All scholars are not trinitarians. But the ones who are trinitarians are all wrong."

No argument that I said this, but where did I say that I knew more than they?

Are you accusing me of, "depend[ing] on those who may be called 'Bible scholars; [ . . . ]to tell me what I should believe?"

I said I did not depend on those who may be called Bible scholars to tell me what I should believe. You may take that any way you like.

You made scripturally unsupported assertions,
A church is not necessarily an 'organized body'. And you cannot see Christ's church with earthly eyes. It is kind of like the pictures and types in the OT in that respect. If one cannot see it on their own, it cannot be shown to them.
I asked you to support them with scripture. Since you can't support the assertions from scripture, there is nothing for me to disprove.

Very well. Where is the church that Jesus built located today if it is a physical organized body, Show it to me please.

Matthew 16:18. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Or don't you believe Jesus did what he said he was going to do?

You asked me a question, I answered it, now you insult me because I did.How does me answering your question about my knowledge of languages equal claiming my word is more authoritative than anyone else?

It doesn't. Neither did I say it did. I am beginning to think that maybe you have a persecution complex. Or maybe you are like my Cat who has no enemies in our house at all, but she turns my prized throw pillow with embordery and tassels, and various other harmless articles into an imaginary enemies, and attacks them ferociously.

If you could talk to the 900+ people who died in Guyana following Jim Jones and the 80 + people who died in Waco following David Koresh, I'm sure they could open eyes on this.

Maybe you are gullible enough to believe that those people had honestly and sincerely been seeking the proper understanding of the holy scriptures prior to their involvement with those two men, but I am not. The only people that persons like Koresh and Jones can engulf in their fallacious doctrines are those who have sought after the wrong source, and have knocked at the wrong door, for understanding. I am compelled to believe this, as Jesus said, "seek and you shall find", and "knock and it will be opened unto you." And I believe him. Do you?

Another one of those "Neener, neener, neener I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" answers. I just love the arrogance of those so intensely indoctrinated by their false religious group that is the only kind of answer they can come up with. These scripture blow your argument away, Luke 1:33, Rev 11:15, 22:5. Now let see if you can address arguments and the scripture I posted?

Why should I, or anyone else, address any scripture that you have posted when you haven't even done that yourself? Anyone can copy and paste scripture from the Bible and claim that they mean this or they mean that. And this is what you have done. But if they do not show the how and why they believe they mean what they say they mean, thats not much of an accomplishment.

I proved from scripture in this post that the 24 elders and the 4 beasts were not in the middle of the throne.

Christian Forums - Where Christian Community Meets Faith

And?

Read the scripture again.
Rev 5:5-6
(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
"The Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." All past tense. Prevailed/overcame, open and loose.

I see in this passage that there is a group of things: there is a throne, there are four beasts, and there are twenty-four elders. And the Lamb stood in the midst of this group of 'things'. This would make sense, since it would not be an ordinary thing for someone to stand on a seat or a throne rather than sit on it. Don't you think?

Were there gentiles in heaven trampling down the streets of Jerusalem for 42 months? Now tell me again where the temple that John was measuring was?
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This is getting sillier and sillier. Of course the trampling of the court did not take place in heaven. This was something that John was shown that was to occur at a later time on earth.

 

[Der Alte]

No argument that I said this, but where did I say that I knew more than they?

If you claim that "But the [scholars] who are trinitarians are all wrong." You are implying that you know more than all Trinitarian scholars, without having read all Trinitarian scholars.

Very well. Where is the church that Jesus built located today if it is a physical organized body, Show it to me please.

It does not exist as any current day, anti-Trinitarian group such as JW, LDS, UU, OP, SDA, WWCG, kristadelfian, anti-Trin MJ, etc. since no such religious group existed until the late 19th century.

Matthew 16:18. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Or don't you believe Jesus did what he said he was going to do?

The church that Jesus built did not, could not disappear for 2000 years which would have had to happen for anti-Trinitarianism, as believed and practiced today, to be true.

Maybe you are gullible enough to believe that those people had honestly and sincerely been seeking the proper understanding of the holy scriptures prior to their involvement with those two men, but I am not. The only people that persons like Koresh and Jones can engulf in their fallacious doctrines are those who have sought after the wrong source, and have knocked at the wrong door, for understanding. I am compelled to believe this, as Jesus said, "seek and you shall find", and "knock and it will be opened unto you." And I believe him. Do you?

I'm sorry, I did not know that you were a counselor and that you had counseled everybody involved with Jones and Koresh and know what they all thought, knew, believed, etc.

Why should I, or anyone else, address any scripture that you have posted when you haven't even done that yourself? Anyone can copy and paste scripture from the Bible and claim that they mean this or they mean that. And this is what you have done. But if they do not show the how and why they believe they mean what they say they mean, thats not much of an accomplishment.

I explained why the scripture either address or refer to Jesus as God. I suspected that you could not address the scripture I posted. For example, "And Thomas answered him [Jesus] My Lord and My God." What does it mean when a devout Jew addresses someone as "My God.," actually "The God of me?" When I do present discussion why vss. such as 2 Pet 1:1 and Titus 2:13 refer to Jesus as God you ignore it, such as Wallace and Bowman in this post http://www.christianforums.com/t7485621-24/#post55674381 More than 200 posts ago.

I see in this passage that there is a group of things: there is a throne, there are four beasts, and there are twenty-four elders. And the Lamb stood in the midst of this group of 'things'. This would make sense, since it would not be an ordinary thing for someone to stand on a seat or a throne rather than sit on it. Don't you think?

That makes sense but for all these verses.

Re 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. .​

But there is only one throne in heaven and only one sitting on the throne.

Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Re 4:10, 5:1, 5:7, 5:13, 6:16, 7:10, 7:15, 20:11, 21:5.​

Only one sits on the one throne.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Re 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.​

But the lamb is in the midst of the throne.

Re 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.​

The one throne in heaven is the throne of God.

Re 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:​

But it is also the throne of the lamb.

This is getting sillier and sillier. Of course the trampling of the court did not take place in heaven. This was something that John was shown that was to occur at a later time on earth.

Yes it is, you keep forgetting or ignoring what you said before. If the trampling of the temple court was to occur at a later time on earth how could John be in heaven measuring a temple you concocted there? As I said John was sent to measure the temple in the holy city. That temple did not exist in heaven.

 

[Nemo Neem]

I can see where people view Jesus as "just a man." My mom does, and it saddens me, and she's a non-practicing Catholic. "He was just a man who was enlightened," she said. She can't understand why I believe in a man who also claimed to be God. I told her that you had to profess your faith in Him and just believe. But, she gave me the old "faith is not enough" ritual.

But Jesus is fully God and fully Man. God (whatever His Holy Name is) sent Jesus Christ, as it says in the Bible.

And He said unto them, "Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?" (Luke 2:49)

"I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent." (Luke 4:43)

Jesus quotes Malachi 3:1 as proof that OT prophecy concerning the Messiah was fulfilled (see LUke 7:27).

 

[razzelflabben]

Actually, there is evidence to suggest that Jesus' story was inspired by the Greek god, Dionysus. Dionysus' story is very similar to Jesus'.



Dionysus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

personally, I don't see a lot of similarities, but what I am most curious about is what makes you think that Jesus is modeled after Dionysus, rather than the other way around.

 

[Nemo Neem]

personally, I don't see a lot of similarities, but what I am most curious about is what makes you think that Jesus is modeled after Dionysus, rather than the other way around.

I go with the latter.

 

[Evergreen48]

If you claim that "But the [scholars] who are trinitarians are all wrong." You are implying that you know more than all Trinitarian scholars, without having read all Trinitarian scholars.

No, I was not implying that I knew more than all trinitarian scholars.
I don't agree with some of the meteorologists who believe that lightning strikes originate in the ground and go upward to the sky. But I don't think that I know more than they just because I don't believe them about that particular thing.

Very well. Where is the church that Jesus built located today if it is a physical organized body, Show it to me please.

It does not exist as any current day, anti-Trinitarian group such as JW, LDS, UU, OP, SDA, WWCG, kristadelfian, anti-Trin MJ, etc. since no such religious group existed until the late 19th century.

You asked me to prove with scripture that the church is not an organized body. I gave you the scripture (Matthew 16:18), and asked you to show me the church that Jesus built if it is an organized, physical body. All you could do was go into an anti - JW, LDS, UU, OP, SDA WWCG , the Christadelphians, etc. rant. Now, if, as you seem to believe, the church is an organized visible church, please point it out to me and tell me what place in the world it is located.

The church that Jesus built did not, could not disappear for 2000 years which would have had to happen for anti-Trinitarianism, as believed and practiced today, to be true.

No one is saying that the church that Jesus built did disappear for 2000 years just because they do not believe the trinity doctrine. For believing the trinity doctrine is hardly the criteria that must be met in order to be a member of it. The church that Jesus built is not comprised of those who believe the trinity doctrine. Jesus never taught this, nor did he ever instruct his apostles to teach this. But it is comprised of those who have no other God before the Almighty God, and who love their neighbors as themselves. And of those who do unto others as they would have others do unto them. This church has never, and will never, disappear from the view of those who see it with a spiritual mind and spiritual eyes.

I explained why the scripture either address or refer to Jesus as God. I suspected that you could not address the scripture I posted. For example, "And Thomas answered him [Jesus] My Lord and My God." What does it mean when a devout Jew addresses someone as "My God.," actually "The God of me?" When I do present discussion why vss. such as 2 Pet 1:1 and Titus 2:13 refer to Jesus as God you ignore it, such as Wallace and Bowman in this post Christian Forums - Where Christian Community Meets Faith More than 200 posts ago.

It would take more than 200 posts for you to address all 62 scriptures that you claim show Jesus to be God. And you have not done any such as this.

I really don't know what it would mean if a 'devout Jew addressed someone as "My God, or the God of me' as I do not believe that Thomas was addressing Jesus as such. There really is not enough of the dialogue between Jesus and Thomas recorded in John 20:27-29 to be able to come to any reasonable conclusion concerning this. I have to wonder if all of the original text is presented here. Thomas was not in disbelief that Jesus was God. His disbelief was all about Jesus coming back from the dead and being alive again. And It makes no sense to me that Thomas, or any other devout Jew would be convinced that Jesus was God simply by seeing or feeling the nail holes in his very human hands and the wound in his very human side. I can understand how this would convince him that this was indeed the same Jesus whom he had seen crucified and entombed, but I do not believe that Thomas or any other of his disciples believed that they had been walking with the Almighty God all that time. That is quite unbelievable.

I did not ignore what you presented about Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13. I wouldn't know what else you would want me to say regarding it, other than that I do not agree with your presentation.

That makes sense but for all these verses.
Re 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. .
But there is only one throne in heaven and only one sitting on the throne.
Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Re 4:10, 5:1, 5:7, 5:13, 6:16, 7:10, 7:15, 20:11, 21:5.



Only one sits on the one throne.
Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Re 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
But the lamb is in the midst of the throne.
Re 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
The one throne in heaven is the throne of God.
Re 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
But it is also the throne of the lamb.

Are we not told that Jesus reigned for a time and then after all his enemies had been subdued he would hand the kingdom back to the Father? (1Cor. 15:24-28) Of course it is the throne of God and of the Lamb. The throne was God's from the beginning. He turned it over to the Son for a season, and it was returned to him when his will was accomplished. Is it so hard to understand why it would be called the throne of God and of the Lamb, since they both (at different times) had sat on it?

Yes it is, you keep forgetting or ignoring what you said before. If the trampling of the temple court was to occur at a later time on earth how could John be in heaven measuring a temple you concocted there? As I said John was sent to measure the temple in the holy city. That temple did not exist in heaven.

I did not concoct any temple in heaven.

Rev. 11:1 "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod, and the angel stood saying Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Rev. 11:19. "And the temple of God was opened IN HEAVEN and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail."

It was a vision! Not reality! So get over it, and move on, Der.

 

[Evergreen48]

you keep saying this, but lack evidence to prove it. How if I have the ability can I not do it? How about Paul? He couldn't either, in fact, scripture says that any man that claims to be able to is a liar without truth. So is scripture lieing to us, or is this a fallacy you have concocted to make yourself feel better about your opinion.


I know lots and lots and lots of people who do just that, and still fall prey to temptation. In fact, scripture says that anyone who claims they are without sin is a liar and without truth. How do you reconcile that verse with your theology?


actually, the passage said that only God has the authority to forgive sin, but at least this explains your denial of the trinity, thanks.



a claim that scripture says labels one a liar without truth. So how do you reconcile the passage with your ideas?


Matthew 17: 18. "And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."


have you ever seen "mountains" move from in front of you? I have, it's amazing, and still I sin, and scripture says I do. IOW's I can have the faith to move "mountains" and still not be without sin. How was Jesus able to if He was just a man?



because HE claimed to be God and the claim was truth...that is pretty easy, look at the highlight.


well your first misunderstanding of scripture is Jesus understanding of the law He would have understood the law to be the OT law.



First, that is my business, but secondly it isn't so much the 10 but the total law as well as the thoughts of my heart. consider for example, adultery, scripture says if you even lust after a woman you have committed adultery. If you call your brother a fool you are guilty of murder....etc. I am guilty of impure thoughts, I am guilty of lashing out in anger at others, I am human after all.


Showed this many times over, but I still don't understand what you think made Jesus able to do what no one else can and why HE wasn't called a liar by God but we are. What sets Him apart, above the law of claiming to be without sin?

We try, we seek God, we have faith, we believe, we try some more, but still, we fail and scripture says we will and scripture says if we claim otherwise we are liars. So why wasn't Jesus held to the same law of liar?

I believe that there is a difference between could not and would not, but that scripture is pretty clear that we "could not" I also believe that Jesus would have been bound to the same law and as the only one possible of obeying had more going for Him than just being a man, that meaning fully God fully man. As to our obedience, I think that most people do not even try with have their beings, but that some do and they still fall because they are only human. When we come to Christ, if we allow the HS to empower us and convict us and put forth the effort, we can be without sin thereafter. But again, it is God who does it in us, not us doing it on our own.

Scripture says that the Christians in Corinth to whom Paul wrote had the mind of Christ to teach them.

descended seems a bad choice of word here...but I am trying to understand you. How is my belief helping me grasp your concept? I do believe Jesus was raised from the dead, is sitting on the right hand of God, makes intercession for us, etc. But that is because He is God in the form of a man, not despite it.


I give God my all, including but not limited to my my family What does that have to do with the deity of Jesus?


so this verse only applies to John and those with him at that time....wow....that is like one of the longest stretches I have heard so far.

According to scripture, we are able to be without sin, the problem is we do that through the Lord Jesus Christ, not apart from Him. I was basing my comment on what scripture says as it relates to what you said, if scripture is not your authority, I aplogize for assuming you were using it that way. I should have known better than to make such assumptions especially from a non trinitarian.

awesome, I don't like to miss anything important.


No problem, we lost our son, a bit over 3 months ago, I know the chaos well.

the question is how, how was He able to overcome what no other human could? You keep saying He was able to overcome but you don't say how He was able to. Here's the thing, I would give up pretty much anything to honor my Lord by not sinning, in fact, I can't think of anything I would withhold. So what was His secret? How, if Jesus was not God, could He be without sin?

We were judged according to the law before Jesus ever came to this earth. So what of them...?

The problem is this, I am trying to grasp the concept that anyone could read the bible, much less study it and still think that Jesus was not God. On some points, I understand where you might be getting some of your ideas, but on other ideas, it is still a mystery. One of the biggest mysteries to me is how you or anyone else thinks that Jesus could be a man alone and still be without sin, especially since the bible is clear that all men sin. If I can get some kind of understanding on this, I will be satisfied the discussion has succeeded. I won't agree with you, to me scripture is too clear on this issue to not believe, but I'm not interested in agreeing or disagreeing, I am interested in understanding.

razzelflabben, After giving some serious thought to this, I have come to the conclusion that furthering this discussion with you would not prove anything that would be useful to either of us. You claim that scriptures say what they don't say and it seems that you believe that I am saying that I am without sin. That of course is not true. I have repeatedly told you that we are just as capable of being without sin as Jesus was, and that is not the same as saying that we do not sin. We are all sinners, and sin anyway even though we did not have to do it. And that is why we are guilty. God is not a God who renders an adverse judgement on anyone who could not help but do what they did. You can think of it in this way: We, as good parents, get our learning about how to treat our children from God. We, who are good parents and who love our children would not beat them to death because they did something that they could not help but do. And neither does God do this with his children. He is not a God who says, "do as I say, and not as I do".

I am sorry to learn of the passing of your son. This must be a very sad time for you and the rest of your family. May God bless you and keep you in his care.

Sincerely,
Evergreen48

 

[razzelflabben]

razzelflabben, After giving some serious thought to this, I have come to the conclusion that furthering this discussion with you would not prove anything that would be useful to either of us. You claim that scriptures say what they don't say and it seems that you believe that I am saying that I am without sin. That of course is not true. I have repeatedly told you that we are just as capable of being without sin as Jesus was,

actually no where did I suggest you claimed to be without sin, I'm not sure where you are getting that idea. What I still don't get is how it is possible, either scripturally or physically for a man to be without sin except for the power and might of the HS within. A HS that was not given to man until after Jesus death and resurrection. What I am desperately trying to understand is why or how you think this is possible when scripture tells us it isn't.

and that is not the same as saying that we do not sin.

agreed, I understand that part of what you are saying. When I take what you are saying and apply it to scripture, it is as if scripture is telling us that God will not allow us to be without sin. Why is that? Why would God give us the ability to be without sin, but then refuse to allow us to be without sin unless calling us a liar? It just doesn't seem to add up in my mind. And why or how would Jesus be able to do what no one else can? Do you really think no one else lives by the power and might of God? If so, why don't they? What separates all men from Jesus, so that He was able to do what no one else is? I assure you I among others would rather literally and figuratively loose an arm then to sin, it can't be the dedication or willingness that separates us. What of effort? I know of men and woman who put forth all their effort into being without sin, and still it isn't enough. Was Jesus able to be without sin because He had more effort? More willingness? More will power? What, cause I know people with massive amounts of each and they still sin. As scripture says they will.

We are all sinners, and sin anyway even though we did not have to do it. And that is why we are guilty. God is not a God who renders an adverse judgement on anyone who could not help but do what they did.

I understand your premise, I don't understand how this is possible, how it works.

You can think of it in this way: We, as good parents, get our learning about how to treat our children from God. We, who are good parents and who love our children would not beat them to death because they did something that they could not help but do. And neither does God do this with his children. He is not a God who says, "do as I say, and not as I do"

This concept is where the HS comes into our lives as far as scripture is concerned, but you aren't interested in scripture here, nor am I at the moment. What I am interested in at the moment is how it is possible for man to be without sin, if no one is? Consider this example. Most kids walk around the age of 1, but some children walk before they are one year old...the problem is that more than one child walks before the age of one, therefore, it is possible but unlikely. If Jesus alone is without sin, out of all the billions and billions of people, Jesus is the only one without sin, not one of a few, but the only one, there is something different about Him, what is that difference?

.

I am sorry to learn of the passing of your son. This must be a very sad time for you and the rest of your family. May God bless you and keep you in his care.

Sincerely,
Evergreen48

thanks, harder than you can imagine.

 

[Superfast]

I have repeatedly told you that we are just as capable of being without sin as Jesus was,

In a sense I agree with you. Except I believe we will only be capable of being without sin when the son is formed in us, which is the unveiling of the son of God in us.

Romans 8:19 For, the eager outlook of creation, ardently awaiteth the revealing of the sons of God,-- 20 For, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject--not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope 21 That, creation itself also, shall be freed--from the bondage of the decay into the freedom of the glory of the sons of God; 22 For we know that, all creation, is sighing together, and travailing-in-birth-throes together until the present,-- 23 And, not only so, but, we ourselves, also, who have the first-fruit of the Spirit--[[we]] even ourselves, within our own selves do sigh,--sonship ardently awaiting--the redeeming of our body;-- Rotherham

when Christ is formed perfectly in the believers then we shall be like Jesus and cannot sin. True Jesus could have sinned while here on earth in his earthly body, but Jesus has a celestial body now one that cannot sin.

1 Corinthians 15:40 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies,--but, of one kind, indeed, is the glory of the heavenly, and, of another kind, is the glory of the earthly;--

 

[nChrist]

Why? Why? Why?

Because Jesus Christ was and is GOD! God can't lie or sin. God the Son was and is Perfect, Holy, without spot, and without blemish. He was the only perfect and acceptable sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, just as He is the only acceptable Lord, Saviour, Messiah, and King of Kings.

The Eternal God The Son was made manifest in the flesh, and He lived a perfect life without sin. He was in the form of a man during His earthly ministry, but He was still God The Son - fully God and fully man. He was the only man in human history who lived a perfect and Holy life without sin.

1 Peter 3:18 KJV For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:​

Why? - Because Jesus Christ was and is God The Son from eternity past. The Holy Bible clearly and boldly proclaims this fact over and over. The only argument lies with those who reject the Holy Bible and God The Son. Those who reject God The Son also reject God The Father.

The Words of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:6-7 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.​

It's all so blunt, clear, and bold once one realizes that Almighty God is a Holy Trinity: God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit - Yet ONE. This isn't a matter of interpretation, argument, or debate if one uses and believes in the Holy Bible - God's Word.

 

[wayseer]

Because Jesus Christ was and is GOD!

Why? Jesus Made no such statement that he was God.

What Jesus alerted everyone to was that there was an aspect of God in all of us and that if we realized as much there would a Kingdom of God on earth.

But the egotistic church fathers were not going to let anyone come along and steal their thunder let alone their privileges of power and position.

So, most of us are so brained washed by the church that we can no longer think for ourselves. When we break out of the prison we find there is nothing to be guilty of and therefore nothing to be 'saved' from.

What we do need to be saved from is the church. But given the events over the past few weeks it is only a matter of time before the church implodes.

Please read the scriptures and not the pseudo-scriptures. God is not the church and the church is not God.

 

[nChrist]

Why? Jesus Made no such statement that he was God.

What Jesus alerted everyone to was that there was an aspect of God in all of us and that if we realized as much there would a Kingdom of God on earth.

But the egotistic church fathers were not going to let anyone come along and steal their thunder let alone their privileges of power and position.

So, most of us are so brained washed by the church that we can no longer think for ourselves. When we break out of the prison we find there is nothing to be guilty of and therefore nothing to be 'saved' from.

What we do need to be saved from is the church. But given the events over the past few weeks it is only a matter of time before the church implodes.

Please read the scriptures and not the pseudo-scriptures. God is not the church and the church is not God.

One word: Bizarre!

 

[Der Alte]

Why? Jesus Made no such statement that he was God.

My previous post, 36 N.T. verses which address or refer to Jesus as God

My previous post 26 O.T. verses which address YHWH, which refer to Jesus as God, in the N.T.

My previous posts, 4 N.T. verses which address or refer to the Holy Spirit, as God.

What Jesus alerted everyone to was that there was an aspect of God in all of us and that if we realized as much there would a Kingdom of God on earth.

Where is the scripture where "Jesus alerted everyone to was that there was an aspect of God in all of us?"

But the egotistic church fathers were not going to let anyone come along and steal their thunder let alone their privileges of power and position.

Logical fallacy, poisoning the well. "All the early church leaders were wrong because they were 'egotistic!'" NO, ZERO, NONE evidence! Two of those ECF were disciples of John, Polycarp and Ignatius. Irenaeus was a disciples of Polycarp. Yeah they had a lot of prestige and power, many of the ECF including Polycarp and Justin were martyred because they would NOT worship the pagan gods of Rome or the emperor.

So, most of us are so brained washed by the church that we can no longer think for ourselves. When we break out of the prison we find there is nothing to be guilty of and therefore nothing to be 'saved' from.

Speak for yourself when you say brainwashed. Many of us have thoroughly researched our beliefs and and can counter any specious, logical fallacy argument such as yours.

What we do need to be saved from is the church. But given the events over the past few weeks it is only a matter of time before the church implodes.

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" Sexual sin in the church? Nothing new read 1 Cor 5:1?

Please read the scriptures and not the pseudo-scriptures. God is not the church and the church is not God.

Don't know what you are trying to say here.

 

[wayseer]

One word: Bizarre!

And that is you considered opinion?

 

[wayseer]

My previous post, 36 N.T. verses which address or refer to Jesus as God

Jesus at no time said 'I am God'. You might like to 'believe' that Jesus said he was God but that is far cry from what Jesus actually said.

Where is the scripture where 'Jesus alerted everyone to was that there was an aspect of God in all of us'

Luke 17:21.

NO, ZERO, NONE evidence!

Then you need to re-read what they had to say about those who did see things their way.

The ECF taught an exclusivism that was not from the teachings of Jesus. Jesus excluded no one.

Speak for yourself when you say brainwashed. Many of us have thoroughly researched our beliefs and and can counter any specious, logical fallacy argument such as yours.

Then so much more the condemnation thereof.

Don't know what you are trying to say here.

Perhaps that is the problem.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus at no time said 'I am God'. You might like to 'believe' that Jesus said he was God but that is far cry from what Jesus actually said.

Irrelevant! Logical fallacy, argument from silence. I posted 62 passages of scripture which do call Jesus God. Those verses are as much the word of God as the words Jesus spoke.

Luke 17:21.

Luke 17:21 says nothing about an aspect of God within in us.

Then you need to re-read what they had to say about those who did see things their way.

The ECF taught an exclusivism that was not from the teachings of Jesus. Jesus excluded no one.

No! You need to post evidence for your wild assertions! So far I have seen NO, ZERO, NONE evidence, just you making claims you can't back up.

Then so much more the condemnation thereof.

Meaningless assertion! I have prayed about it and the Holy Spirit has shown me conclusively that you are dead wrong!

Perhaps that is the problem.

More unsupported assertions with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Why? Jesus Made no such statement that he was God.

What Jesus alerted everyone to was that there was an aspect of God in all of us and that if we realized as much there would a Kingdom of God on earth.

But the egotistic church fathers were not going to let anyone come along and steal their thunder let alone their privileges of power and position.

So, most of us are so brained washed by the church that we can no longer think for ourselves. When we break out of the prison we find there is nothing to be guilty of and therefore nothing to be 'saved' from.

What we do need to be saved from is the church. But given the events over the past few weeks it is only a matter of time before the church implodes.

Please read the scriptures and not the pseudo-scriptures. God is not the church and the church is not God.

Jesus Made no such statement that he was God.

John 8:58 is as clear a claim to eternality as one can get dude . ..

 

[wayseer]

Irrelevant! Logical fallacy, argument from silence. I posted 62 passages of scripture which do call Jesus God. Those verses are as much the word of God as the words Jesus spoke.

Quantity does not supplant quality.

Luke 17:21 says nothing about an aspect of God within in us.

Read again.

No! You need to post evidence for your wild assertions! So far I have seen NO, ZERO, NONE evidence, just you making claims you can't back up.

The church is exclusive regardless of your railing. You posts reek of that exclusivism that pervades Christianity.

Meaningless assertion! I have prayed about it and the Holy Spirit has shown me conclusively that you are dead wrong!

You are praying to the god of the church. Open your mind.

 

[wayseer]

John 8:58 is as clear a claim to eternality as one can get dude . ..

John 8:58 refers to all of us.

And I take your 'dude' comment as an insult - and similar to the Pope's recent comment with regards atheists, another example of Christian exclusivism.

 

[Der Alte]

Quantity does not supplant quality.

So you are saying the 62 scripture I posted have no quality?

Read again.

Don't need to, the words "aspect of God" do not occur in the verse. Your comments are about the same as the teachings of Jim Jones/David Koresh. Your own private interpretation which is not supported by scripture. Just vain imagination.

The church is exclusive regardless of your railing. You posts reek of that exclusivism that pervades Christianity.

Meaningless accusation with NO, NONE, ZERO evidence. I said nothing which could be interpreted as exclusivity.

You are praying to the god of the church. Open your mind.

Who appointed you a judge over me? You know absolutely nothing about me. Your posts show that you are worshiping at the altar of your own imagination.

Perhaps you need to open your mind. I learned to read this more than 2 decades ago. Does your superior knowledge and understanding tell you what it means?

ככלב שׁב על־קאו כסיל שׁונה באולתו׃

συμβέβηκεν αὐτοῖς τὸ τῆς ἀληθοῦς παροιμίας, Κύων ἐπιστρέψας ἐπὶ τὸ ἴδιον ἐξέραμα​

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