Biblical Truth: Christ Jesus is not God.

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ToxicReboMan

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"What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!" Mk 1:24 NASB


"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." Mk 12:29 ESV


"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent." Num 23:19 NASB


"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18 KJV


"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us." 1 Jn 4:12 KJV


"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
John 17:3 NASB


"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:30-31 KJV


"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.." 1 Tim 2:5 NASB​
 

ToxicReboMan

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Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

Mt 16:13-17 NASB​
 
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ToxicReboMan

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What about those places (especially in John) where Jesus did reveal that he is God?

:) Hello A New Dawn,


Contrary to popular belief, Jesus never actually claimed to be God, ever.

The purpose of John's gospel was not to show that Jesus is God. It was to show that Jesus is the Messiah, the unique son of God. If the former were the case then it would have been stated plainly in John's reason for writing his gospel (Jn 20:30-31). In fact, Christ Jesus made it clear on numerous occasions that what he did he did not do on his own authority but rather by the authority of God. Jesus was given authority by God to do his Father's will. If Jesus were God then he would have never needed to be given any authority as he would have already had it.

Those verses in which you believe that Jesus is claiming to be God are usually misconstrued because of the reader's bias even before opening the book.

No doubt, the truth certainly has a shock value in this world of man-made tradition/doctrine.


:preach:


P.S. I see that you are a pastor. God Bless you and your congregation. :hug:
 
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A New Dawn

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:) Hello A New Dawn,


Contrary to popular belief, Jesus never actually claimed to be God, ever.

The purpose of John's gospel was not to show that Jesus is God. It was to show that Jesus is the Messiah, the unique son of God. If the former were the case then it would have been stated plainly in John's reason for writing his gospel (Jn 20:30-31). In fact, Christ Jesus made it clear on numerous occasions that what he did he did not do on his own authority but rather by the authority of God. Jesus was given authority by God to do his Father's will. If Jesus were God then he would have never needed to be given any authority as he would have already had it.

Those verses in which you believe that Jesus is claiming to be God are usually misconstrued because of the reader's bias even before opening the book.

No doubt, the truth certainly has a shock value in this world of man-made tradition/doctrine.


:preach:

There are several places, especially in John, where Jesus claimed to be God by identifying himself as I Am. Unfortunately, when the Bible was translated to English, words like "he" not in the original text were added. But the Jewish leaders knew exactly who he was claiming to be, and that is why he was arrested for blasphemy.

Here are a couple of instances where He made this claim, and if you notice the words I bolded, those are added words, not in the original manuscripts.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he] , and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

P.S. I see that you are a pastor. God Bless you and your congregation. :hug:

LOL. I am not a pastor. What is in my signature is what my pastor said one day during a sermon. I thought it was a pretty good quote, so I thought I'd use it as my siggy for a while. :)
 
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cubinity

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:)
The purpose of John's gospel was not to show that Jesus is God. It was to show that Jesus is the Messiah, the unique son of God. If the former were the case then it would have been stated plainly in John's reason for writing his gospel (Jn 20:30-31).

Along with this stated motive, I have been taught that John was written as an argument that Jesus was physically a flesh and blood human being. At the time this Gospel was written, the heresy of Docetism argued that the physical flesh was irreconcilably evil, so Jesus could not have been holy and flesh at the same time, so he only appeared to be flesh. John presented this text as an argument against Docetism, and it was embraced as a Gospel. This is why distinctly physical stuff like the scene with Thomas only happens in John.

I don't know what your intentions are with posting about Jesus not being God. Are you trying to say that we should not believe He is God? Or, knowing what you've presented, are Christians still free to appropriately believe Jesus is God without consequence?

I personally already knew what you've presented, but I think it is inconsequential whether Jesus is actually God or not, and I would never tell anyone they shouldn't believe one way or another. So, I am comfortable with the Trinity as a functional belief.

What do you think? What do you want your audience to do with the info you're presenting?
 
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Evergreen48

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There are several places, especially in John, where Jesus claimed to be God by identifying himself as I Am. Unfortunately, when the Bible was translated to English, words like "he" not in the original text were added. But the Jewish leaders knew exactly who he was claiming to be, and that is why he was arrested for blasphemy.

Here are a couple of instances where He made this claim, and if you notice the words I bolded, those are added words, not in the original manuscripts.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he] , and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



LOL. I am not a pastor. What is in my signature is what my pastor said one day during a sermon. I thought it was a pretty good quote, so I thought I'd use it as my siggy for a while. :)

"Never say die." . That has to be you, A New Dawn. :D

Have I told you lately that you are one of my favorite people here in Unorthodox Theology?
 
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cubinity

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A little tactical advice Toxic, everyone that believes Jesus is god totally ignores every scripture you've posted to prove that Jesus is not God. They want you to play their game without playing your game. Ignore their scriptures just as they ignore yours.

Except that I believe Jesus is God, but totally acknowledged and gave creditability to toxic's argument.

Your post demonstrates a sad state of a affairs when we resort to, "Many ignore us, so we're just going to ignore anyone like them." Why even participate in a forum like this with that kind of approach?

What happened to, "Test everything. Hold on to the good"(1 Thess 5:21)?
 
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2ducklow

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Except that I believe Jesus is God, but totally acknowledged and gave creditability to toxic's argument.
In other words both sides are right but you just choose to believe Jesus is God, even though the other side is right too.
You've ignored the scriptures he gave which prove Jesus is not god, so you can say Jesus is god. Everyone has ignored, and most probably will continue to ignore, thescriptures Toxic posted. There is no debate when one side ignores anything the other side says. this is a debate forum. toxic quoted this scripture amongst many others.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent." Num 23:19 NASB


now if you were debating instead of questioning our motives, you would have said, well I believe that this proves a man could not be god, so Jesus cannot be god.

you can't say that cause you believe Jesus is god, so ignore it. don't explain what you believe about the scripture just nod your head and aknowledge it exists.

on the other hand you could use a standard trinity explanation. Jesus is god and man, so the man jesus isn't god, but the god jesus is god. why not say that? why not debate instead of question ing our motives? I know I'm speaking to the wind.

cubinity said:
Your post demonstrates a sad state of a affairs when we resort to, "Many ignore us, so we're just going to ignore anyone like them." Why even participate in a forum like this with that kind of approach?
Why come to a debate forum if you're going to ignore what the other person says?
Cubinity said:
What happened to, "Test everything. Hold on to the good"(1 Thess 5:21)?
you're just trying to justify ignoring what Toxic said in support of the doctrine that JEsus is not God. you question and impune Toxic's motives for this thread and my motives as well instead of dealing with the scriptures Toxic posted. I don't see you questioning the motives of those who believe Jesus is God who have posted in here, just us who believe Jesus is not God. why don't you ask them what thier intentions for posting in here are? Why just us? Clearly you're attempting to silence those who believe Jesus is not god, but have no desire to silence those who believe Jesus is god. You should start a thread called intentions or motives of those who believe Jesus is not god since you don't want to deal with the topic.

cubinity said:
I don't know what your intentions are with posting about Jesus not being God. .........


I What do you think?..................................

What do you want your audience to do with the info you're presenting?
 
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A New Dawn

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You've ignored the scriptures he gave which prove Jesus is not god, so you can say Jesus is god. Everyone has ignored, and most probably will continue to ignore, the scriptures Toxic posted. There is no debate when one side ignores anything the other side says. this is a debate forum. toxic quoted this scripture amongst many others.

Likewise, you have ignored scriptures where Christ states he is God so you can claim that he isn't. We haven't ignored any of the scriptures that Toxic has posted, we just interpret them differently than you do. There is no place where Christ comes out and says he isn't God, but there are several where he identifies himself as "I Am", as I have posted. Why do you ignore them?
 
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2ducklow

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Likewise, you have ignored scriptures where Christ states he is God so you can claim that he isn't. We haven't ignored any of the scriptures that Toxic has posted, we just interpret them differently than you do. There is no place where Christ comes out and says he isn't God, but there are several where he identifies himself as "I Am", as I have posted. Why do you ignore them?
The only response to the several scriptures Toxic post is your "we just interpret them differently than you do." That isn't debating what they mean it is ignoring them. Likewise , since you won't deal with our scriptures I;ll deal with your scriptures in the same mannar you deal with ours and quote you on it

A New Dawn said:
...we just interpret them differently than you do.

the problem is that for you to interpret the scriptures Toxic posted would require you to say numerous things rather difficult even for you to swallow, such as Jesus the man isn't god but Jesus the god is god, or some such similar thing. That is the real reason for the extreme reluctance on your part to deal with those scriptures. It also makes your case for your interpretation of your scriptures in support of Jesus is god, much less believeable. Thus you wont deal with our scriptures I'm not gonna deal with yours. I'll just take it to your level. "we interpret those scriptures diffferently than you do." Our interrpetation of your scriptures requires an understanding of Toxic's scriptures. you won't go there. This is like a hostage negotiation. you deal with one of our scriptures and I"ll deal with one of yours, otherwise ferget it.
 
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cubinity

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In other words both sides are right but you just choose to believe Jesus is God, even though the other side is right too.
You've ignored the scriptures he gave which prove Jesus is not god, so you can say Jesus is god. Everyone has ignored, and most probably will continue to ignore, thescriptures Toxic posted. There is no debate when one side ignores anything the other side says. this is a debate forum. toxic quoted this scripture amongst many others.

Duck, I appreciate your enthusiasm. You've obviously had many debates in the past against people who have refused to hear your side of things, and have lived up to every one of your stereotypes.

The first problem I have with your argument is that this is strictly a debate form. It is not. It is a discussion/debate forum, which means we are free to discuss our diverse ideas, and do not have to insist on any particular side of a debate.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent." Num 23:19 NASB

Okay, great. What are the consequences? Why should this matter to me? Why is it even worth discussing/debating? Does my salvation hang in the balance or something?

See, I'm not strictly challenging your or Toxic's motives. I'm challenging why anyone on either side of this discussion would insist on their point of view being correct if the subject matter is inconsequential.

So, I asked Toxic why it was significant to him that Jesus not be God. It is just as fair to ask me why it is important to me that He is.

If you asked, rather than attacking me with stereotypical accusations I don't necessarily deserve, I would happily tell you.

now if you were debating instead of questioning our motives, you would have said, well I believe that this proves a man could not be god, so Jesus cannot be god.

I'm not debating, I'm discussing. I ask for motives because they help me better understand not only what a person believes, but why it is consequential to them. Our faith is consequential, or it is vain, right? So, why stir trouble over something vain?

you can't say that cause you believe Jesus is god, so ignore it. don't explain what you believe about the scripture just nod your head and aknowledge it exists.

I haven't ignored anything. I've asked about the part of this discussion that interests me. I have not necessarily responded to everything that has been posted because I had nothing to discuss about those things. I wanted to better understand the person that presented them.

If I wanted to better understand Scripture, I would open my Bible and read it. I come here to better understand the people who are discussing with me.

Was the OP a trap I didn't spring? Is that why my comments upset you? If not, then you should have no problem honestly answering my questions. I assure you, I'm not asking them in an effort to trap you, just to better understand.

on the other hand you could use a standard trinity explanation. Jesus is god and man, so the man jesus isn't god, but the god jesus is god. why not say that? why not debate instead of question ing our motives? I know I'm speaking to the wind.

You know an awful lot about me without knowing anything about me. I know you don't know anything about me because you haven't bothered to ask. That, and that alone, hurts any argument you may have.

You are arguing about a text that adamantly insists we not judge one another, and that we not stir vain debates. And yet, here you are, assuming to have me all figured out without knowing a thing about me. That's not just judgment, that's prejudice.

Why come to a debate forum if you're going to ignore what the other person says? you're just trying to justify ignoring what Toxic said in support of the doctrine that JEsus is not God. you question and impune Toxic's motives for this thread and my motives as well instead of dealing with the scriptures Toxic posted. I don't see you questioning the motives of those who believe Jesus is God who have posted in here, just us who believe Jesus is not God. why don't you ask them what thier intentions for posting in here are? Why just us? Clearly you're attempting to silence those who believe Jesus is not god, but have no desire to silence those who believe Jesus is god. You should start a thread called intentions or motives of those who believe Jesus is not god since you don't want to deal with the topic.

I addressed the OP because he was the OP.

I addressed your descriptions of a Trinitarian because they did not describe me. My very existence proved your post wrong.
 
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2ducklow

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Duck, I appreciate your enthusiasm. You've obviously had many debates in the past against people who have refused to hear your side of things, and have lived up to every one of your stereotypes.

The first problem I have with your argument is that this is strictly a debate form. It is not. It is a discussion/debate forum, which means we are free to discuss our diverse ideas, and do not have to insist on any particular side of a debate.
so you don't want to discuss the opening scriptures that Toxic posted.
cubinity said:
Okay, great. What are the consequences? Why should this matter to me? Why is it even worth discussing/debating? Does my salvation hang in the balance or something?
it is triniarians in vast numbers who refuse to believe that anyone rejecting the trinity is a christian. it is trinitarians who base salvation on the trinity doctrine. you are resorting here to a sort of denial and transferance.
cubinity said:
See, I'm not strictly challenging your or Toxic's motives. I'm challenging why anyone on either side of this discussion would insist on their point of view being correct if the subject matter is inconsequential.
you're making the conversation personal rather than dealing with the topic.
cubinity said:
So, I asked Toxic why it was significant to him that Jesus not be God. It is just as fair to ask me why it is important to me that He is.
you questioned his motives for even starting this thread. You questioned my motives for what I said, rather than dealing withthe topic.
cubinity said:
If you asked, rather than attacking me with stereotypical accusations I don't necessarily deserve, I would happily tell you.
when you question our motives you turned it into sdomething personal.
cubinity said:
I'm not debating, I'm discussing. I ask for motives because they help me better understand not only what a person believes, but why it is consequential to them. Our faith is consequential, or it is vain, right? So, why stir trouble over something vain?
nothing to do with the topic, jsut personal stuff.

cubinity said:
I haven't ignored anything. I've asked about the part of this discussion that interests me. I have not necessarily responded to everything that has been posted because I had nothing to discuss about those things. I wanted to better understand the person that presented them.

If I wanted to better understand Scripture, I would open my Bible and read it. I come here to better understand the people who are discussing with me.
exactly you come here to turn it into something personal.
cubinity said:
Was the OP a trap I didn't spring?
you don't see the accusation in this question? your accusing toxic in a backhanded way of setting a trap. you question our motives and imply that we are setting traps, rather than deal with the topic.
cubiniity said:
Is that why my comments upset you? If not, then you should have no problem honestly answering my questions. I assure you, I'm not asking them in an effort to trap you, just to better understand.

You know an awful lot about me without knowing anything about me. I know you don't know anything about me because you haven't bothered to ask. That, and that alone, hurts any argument you may have.

You are arguing about a text that adamantly insists we not judge one another, and that we not stir vain debates. And yet, here you are, assuming to have me all figured out without knowing a thing about me. That's not just judgment, that's prejudice.
I haven't argued about any scripture about judging anyone, you just made that up out of thin air. I am arguing with you that you are avoiding the topic and taking it into something personal with veiled accusations of bad motives and setting traps.
 
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2ducklow

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cubinity said:
Along with this stated motive, I have been taught that John was written as an argument that Jesus was physically a flesh and blood human being. At the time this Gospel was written, the heresy of Docetism argued that the physical flesh was irreconcilably evil, so Jesus could not have been holy and flesh at the same time, so he only appeared to be flesh. John presented this text as an argument against Docetism, and it was embraced as a Gospel. This is why distinctly physical stuff like the scene with Thomas only happens in John.
I will retract from my previous post a bit. you did here comment on john 20,31. in which John or rather God says.

(Rotherham) John 20:31 but, these, are written, that ye may believe that, Jesus, is, the Christ, the Son of God; and that, believing, ye may have life in his name.


Your arguement is that john was stating his purpose for writing the gospel of John was to disprove dicotiscm or what ever it is. In other words, John said he wrote the book so that you would believe that Jesus is the christ , the son of God to disprove docitism, so it isn't true that he wrote it to get you to believe that Jesus is the christ the son of God, he wrote it for another reason, to disprove docitism. so that means John lied. that means he didn't really write the gospel of john to show us that jesus is the christ the son of god, he had another reason, the real reason to disprove docitism. it's a big fat lie that john told when he said he wrote the gospel of john to show us that jesus is the christ the son of g od. that's what you're saying means.
 
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ToxicReboMan

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There are several places, especially in John, where Jesus claimed to be God by identifying himself as I Am. Unfortunately, when the Bible was translated to English, words like "he" not in the original text were added. But the Jewish leaders knew exactly who he was claiming to be, and that is why he was arrested for blasphemy.

Here are a couple of instances where He made this claim, and if you notice the words I bolded, those are added words, not in the original manuscripts.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he] , and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



LOL. I am not a pastor. What is in my signature is what my pastor said one day during a sermon. I thought it was a pretty good quote, so I thought I'd use it as my siggy for a while. :)


*excerpt* Hope you don't mind. This addresses perfectly those passages that you have presented. There are even further explanations at the link if you are interested.

------------------

BiblicalUnitarian.com - Content

"Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying “I am” does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as “I am” and the other as “I am the man,” is one reason it is so hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in various places in their translation, this being a common one. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God."

---------------

:)
 
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gort

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So, who then is Jesus if not God? Please be specific and scriptural. thanx

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

Mt 16:13-17 NASB​

I guess you missed my point...I'm wanting you to tell me who Jesus is because you say Jesus is not God and therefore must be a created being like the angels or whatever. Problem is, there are no scriptures that would allude to Jesus being a creation and if someone is not a creation, then would not such a one be God?

In light of John 1.1, how would you reconcile Jesus not being God when John says otherwise?

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 
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