Biblical Truth: Christ Jesus is not God.

[nChrist]

Jesus Christ is not a created being, rather He Is The Creator - God The Son.

Jesus Christ had no beginning and has no end. He is the 2nd Person of the Eternal Godhead - God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit - The Holy Trinity - Three Holy Deities - Yet ONE.

Ref. the shunning question: Those who claim that God The Son (Jesus Christ) is a created being should be shunned. Those who claim that God The Son (Jesus Christ) is the brother of Lucifer should be shunned.

God shuns those who deny the deity of God The Son (Jesus Christ). If you deny God The Son, you also deny God The Father.

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
​

God The Son (Jesus Christ) is The Creator - not the created.

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
​

 

[Superfast]

Ok, then. What did I mean?

what you said means nothing until you define role/essence/person. Clearly you do not use those words to mean what they mean, and besides to say that God the Father is a role played by God, is to expouse the oneness doctrine, not trinity.

Explain the Trinity. God is not Three Gods. He's One God. How can He both be the Son of God and God if what you say is true.

There is no explanation for the Trinity doctrine because it is a contradiction. trinity is 3 gods that are one god, and that contradiction cannot be explained. In trinity, 3 gods are named and each are said to not be the other, then denial comes in and trinity denys that it teaches that 3 gods are one god. It claims that you can name 3 indidividuals as each being god, and not have named 3 gods. why? because if you add them up they are perssons not gods. if you don't add them up t hen each one is god, why? who knows? nobody. why do you have to call god the father a person of God if yo add him with god the son? does god the Father change from being God to a person of god if you add him with the other 2 who are each called god? apparently. there is no lucidity anywhere in the trinity doctrine.


God is not the son of God. there is only one God, Yahweh aka, God the Father, aka the Holy spirit. No one is their own daddy.

 

[razzelflabben]

what you said means nothing until you define role/essence/person. Clearly you do not use those words to mean what they mean, and besides to say that God the Father is a role played by God, is to expouse the oneness doctrine, not trinity.

There is no explanation for the Trinity doctrine because it is a contradiction. trinity is 3 gods that are one god,

not a single trinity doctrine I have heard, nor a single person I know who believes in the trinity, believes for half a second that trinity means 3 different Gods. In fact, I have (apart form the forum) known 1 person who believes there is more than on God (Christian faith of course, this obviously excludes other religious beliefs) and he is anti triune.

and that contradiction cannot be explained. In trinity, 3 gods are named and each are said to not be the other, then denial comes in and trinity denys that it teaches that 3 gods are one god.

you might want to learn what trinitarians believe before making these kinds of false claims about the beliefs..

It claims that you can name 3 indidividuals as each being god, and not have named 3 gods. why? because if you add them up they are perssons not gods. if you don't add them up t hen each one is god, why? who knows? nobody. why do you have to call god the father a person of God if yo add him with god the son? does god the Father change from being God to a person of god if you add him with the other 2 who are each called god? apparently. there is no lucidity anywhere in the trinity doctrine.

apparently you don't know what trinity doctrine is...

God is not the son of God. there is only one God, Yahweh aka, God the Father, aka the Holy spirit. No one is their own daddy.

Have you heard the song by Ray Stevens, I'm my own Grandpa, you might want to check it out.

 

[nChrist]

For those who deny God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit - what do you call your religion or church. I'd also be curious - do you have your own bible?

 

[ToxicReboMan]

Who here denies God the Father or His Holy Spirit? Who here is denying Christ Jesus, the son of the living God?

What is denied is the man made polytheistic doctrine of the Trinity which includes "God the Son".

 

[Nemo Neem]

Who here denies God the Father or His Holy Spirit? Who here is denying Christ Jesus, the son of the living God?

What is denied is the man made polytheistic doctrine of the Trinity which includes "God the Son".

No one is denying anything. Apparently, there's a contradiction in the Trinity. How can God be three gods, yet one god?

I explained it, but some here think I am an idiot.....

 

[Der Alte]

what you said means nothing until you define role/essence/person. Clearly you do not use those words to mean what they mean, and besides to say that God the Father is a role played by God, is to expouse the oneness doctrine, not trinity.

There is no explanation for the Trinity doctrine because it is a contradiction. trinity is 3 gods that are one god, and that contradiction cannot be explained. In trinity, 3 gods are named and each are said to not be the other, then denial comes in and trinity denys that it teaches that 3 gods are one god. It claims that you can name 3 indidividuals as each being god, and not have named 3 gods. why? because if you add them up they are perssons not gods. if you don't add them up t hen each one is god, why? who knows? nobody. why do you have to call god the father a person of God if yo add him with god the son? does god the Father change from being God to a person of god if you add him with the other 2 who are each called god? apparently. there is no lucidity anywhere in the trinity doctrine.

God is not the son of God. there is only one God, Yahweh aka, God the Father, aka the Holy spirit. No one is their own daddy.

My previous post, 36 N.T. verses which address or refer to Jesus as God

My previous post, 26 O.T. verses which refer to YHWH, address or refer to Jesus as God, in the N.T.

There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Scripture which identifies the Holy Spirit as God.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

This passage, Act 5:3-4, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.

Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​

This passage Act 28:25-27, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T יהוה/YHWH, see Jer 31:33-34]​

This passage, Heb 10:15-17, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]​

This passage identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below were spoken by the Holy Spirit

Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​

 

[2ducklow]

No one is denying anything. Apparently, there's a contradiction in the Trinity. How can God be three gods, yet one god?

well yea but most trinitarians won't admidt that in a million years.

I explained it, but some here think I am an idiot.....

well if it talks like a duck.

 

[Blueberry2010]

I meant to reply to this earlier, and I did expect that I was foolish, did not copy my writing, and ultimately lost my response, so I’ll have to start afresh. Here goes. My new responses are in bold. By the way my message seems to be unloved by this website because apparently I am not distinguished enough to have links inserted so I apologize if something is missing/looks weird.
　
look, I think there is much more to the deity of Jesus than His simple birth records, but birth records are important to scripture and lay for us the first level or layer if you will, of understanding Deity of Jesus the Christ.

My answer to your question about Jesus and salvation is that God (Adonai) is the one that provides salvation, and Jesus is the means through which God chpose to bring salvation to the world (or at least more accessably than in previous days).
but if Jesus were merely a man and nothing more, then we could not find salvation through Him.
　
That is the point. According to scripture, a spotless lamb, a lamb without blemish was necessary. Also according to scripture no man is capable of being that spotless lamb. Therefore if Jesus was merely a man and nothing more, He could not possibly provide the way of salvation. Either that, or scripture is all wrong.
I agree, and I argue that Jesus is more than a man. You probably won’t agree, but in terms of human sacrifice I don’t know that a man being completely spotless would be required for salvation. The lamb offered for sacrifice on Yom Kippur certainly was not truly spotless—but it was the best thing available. So if Jesus were the greatest and most blameless man to have ever lived, I hold that his sacrifice could possibly have been sufficient. In actuality you may argue that Jesus is blameless, but I am arguing that for him to be completely blameless might not have been an absolute requirement according to the available prophecy.
　
　

I'll grant you that calling the Holy Spirit a part of God and then claiming that God is one presents a logical quandary if not a contradiction. What I should have said is the spirit of God exists.
even under that explanation, a spirit that exists in God could certainly become in the form of a man couldn't it?
Yes, I agree.
　
(not saying the HS and Jesus are one, but rather logically looking at non trinitarianism) If the HS could exist in God, why not the son as well?
I’ll agree that it is possible, but I don’t think it is required.
If the son exists in God why couldn't a God allow Him to come to earth as a man? Logically it doesn't follow that Jesus could not be God. That is the point
He can, and I argue that he did though my description of Jesus’ deity is different from yours.
　
I hold that the spirit of God (Holy Spirit) is not necessarily God but that it shows the power of God.
you can look at Jesus the son the same way if it helps your understanding of a supernatural thing.
If you grant that the Holy Spirit is a part of God, then I agree that there is nothing logically preventing Jesus from being a part of God as well. I base my belief that Jesus less than God on Jesus' repeated description his work as doing the will of my Father.
which shows His human nature, but He also repeatedly talks about being one with God, which shows His God nature.
I argue that nature and being are separate. I’ll grant you that Jesus has the nature of God (Philippians passage you quoted is a great supporting text)
　
See the problem is that if we read the scriptures for what they say and not what we want them to say, both natures come through loud and clear. Jesus claims both to be fully man and fully God and still, God is well pleased with Him.
　
If He was lieing about His deity, why wouldn't God condemn Him for blasphame rather than love Him all the more? Scripture is clear about the claims. Claims of being fully man and fully God. The question is not in the claims, but in the belief or denial of those claims.
I might be missing something, but I am unaware of an instance when Jesus claimed to be fully God and fully man. Please quote the text supporting that statement and that may well dispel my position entirely.
　
　
Furthermore, I place a fair amount of stock in that fact that prior to his crucifixion, Jesus prayed to God to allow for another way (other than the crucifixion) to perform the will of God. If Jesus were truly equal to God, I argue that he would have known the answer to the question and would not have to answer to the will of the Father.
consider this, in fact, maybe I'll include an insert from a study I did, I'll see if I can find it. In order for God to become a man and dwell among us, He had to deny a huge chunk of Himself. this act of humility was so great that parts of Himself, the glory of God that man cannot look upon, had to be left behind. So if, God had to leave behind, huge chunks of Himself, why is it unreasonable for Him to have to ask the part that was left behind if there was another way? It seems more than logical to me and this part of the discussion is about logic isn't it?

Your statement is perfectly logical. However, your huge chunk of himself statement seems to also logically allow that at least while walking the face of the earth, the humanity of Jesus at least partially diminishes his deity.


Christ give up: His heavenly glory and in so doing, live among men
Christ gave up: His face to face communication with God the Father
Christ gave up: His Godly authority by being subject to the Father's will
Christ gave up: His divine attributes by becoming not just a man, but an uncomely man
Christ gave up: His eternal riches
Christ gave up: His relationship with God, when He took upon Himself the sin of the world and God could not look upon Him in that sin..."my God my God why have you forsaken me"
Christ gave up: His authority of a man by becoming a servant, the lowest of all men
Christ gave up: His very life
Christ gave up: His pride as He endured humiliation even of that of the cross
Christ gave up: His right to defend Himself, when He opened not His mouth.
Christ gave up: His right to self, by obedience

in one of my files I have passages for each of these, if you want them, I'll see if I can locate them. Let me know.
Please do if it’s not too much trouble. Because of my position, I don’t know if I fully agree with statements 3 and 4. I fully agree with the rest of them, and they are all completely logical assuming Christ is divine.

I may cause more confusion for saying this but I will try to clarify my view who and what (or lack thereof) God consists of. Essentially I believe (based on the arguments above) that neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are a part of God proper. Rather they are physical representations and manifestations of the power of the Almighty God because the human cannot comprehend or fully see the power of the almighty God.
and if this is true, then why can't Jesus be the same? Why can't Jesus also be a physical representation or manifestation of the power and might and glory of the Almighty God? What prevents this understanding of Jesus, the Christ?
It doesn’t, you’ve reiterated my position. I don’t see how what you’re saying is any different from my response above.

Here's a question for you: if Jesus is fully God, why could the people of Jesus day see God (as Jesus) but Moses was not allowed to see God because God's glory and light were too great?
Because in order to be in man form, He had to leave behind massive amounts of His glory...see above. I also love Phil. 2 especially note the highlighted parts....
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.[/quote]

Good response. That was actually a bit of a trick question. God is all powerful and can allow his essence of Himself directly to be seen by men. If all things are not possible with God (excluding sins against his Godly nature of course), how can he really be God? By the way the last question is only rhetorical.
　

And sorry for the long winded response; hopefully I have clarified my position to make logical sense. If not, by all means challenge my position. And I want to say for the record that I don't think this question ultimately matters that much (do you agree or disagree?). Thanks.[/quote]I think it is an imparative question. consider John 3:16...for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosever believeth on Him should have eternal life. If you don't know who HE is, how can you believe on Him?

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don’t find it necessary to believe Jesus is God to believe in Jesus. Why do you believe it is required that one believe in the divinity of Jesus to believe in Jesus as stipulated by John 3:16. You may find other texts compelling you to believe in the Trinity, but in the context of John 3:16 is that really required?
　

And about the discussion, I really want to thank you, I am learning a lot which was my primary reason for entering this thread. In fact, your patience in responding to my questions has taught me more than all the rest of the thread put together and then some. Thanks so much, hopefully, I can keep learning, hopefully you won't tire of all the questions and get angry as so many other people do with me. I am so enjoying learning from you.
Thank you very much as well. It has been a very rewarding and enlightening experience for me and hopefully you as well.
　
　
　
　

 

[nChrist]

I've asked this question at least 3 times, but I'll ask it again. For those of you who Deny God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit - what do you call your religion or church?

Are you ashamed to answer this question?

 

[Don Scott]

Jesus Christ is not a created being, rather He Is The Creator - God The Son.

Jesus Christ had no beginning and has no end. He is the 2nd Person of the Eternal Godhead - God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit - The Holy Trinity - Three Holy Deities - Yet ONE.

Ref. the shunning question: Those who claim that God The Son (Jesus Christ) is a created being should be shunned. Those who claim that God The Son (Jesus Christ) is the brother of Lucifer should be shunned.

God shuns those who deny the deity of God The Son (Jesus Christ). If you deny God The Son, you also deny God The Father.

So by your 'logic' Paul should have been "shunned"? (Colossians 1:15-17).and show us any verse that has the phrases "God the Son" or better yet "God the holy spirit",Thank you.

 

[Don Scott]

I've asked this question at least 3 times, but I'll ask it again. For those of you who Deny God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit - what do you call your religion or church?

Are you ashamed to answer this question?

I'm curious, what did the children of Israel back in the OT Days "call" their "religion"?

 

[Der Alte]

So by your 'logic' Paul should have been "shunned"? (Colossians 1:15-17).and show us any verse that has the phrases "God the Son" or better yet "God the holy spirit",Thank you.

My previous post, 36 N.T. verses which address or refer to Jesus as God

My previous post 26 O.T. verses which address YHWH, which refer to Jesus as God, in the N.T.

My previous post, 4 N.T. verses which address or refer to the Holy Spirit as God.

 

[nChrist]

So by your 'logic' Paul should have been "shunned"? (Colossians 1:15-17).and show us any verse that has the phrases "God the Son" or better yet "God the holy spirit",Thank you.

UM? - Paul is doing the opposite. Read it again and put it in context. Let us know when you think that you understand it. In the meantime, do some work and study for yourself.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

what you said means nothing until you define role/essence/person. Clearly you do not use those words to mean what they mean, and besides to say that God the Father is a role played by God, is to expouse the oneness doctrine, not trinity.

There is no explanation for the Trinity doctrine because it is a contradiction. trinity is 3 gods that are one god, and that contradiction cannot be explained. In trinity, 3 gods are named and each are said to not be the other, then denial comes in and trinity denys that it teaches that 3 gods are one god. It claims that you can name 3 indidividuals as each being god, and not have named 3 gods. why? because if you add them up they are perssons not gods. if you don't add them up t hen each one is god, why? who knows? nobody. why do you have to call god the father a person of God if yo add him with god the son? does god the Father change from being God to a person of god if you add him with the other 2 who are each called god? apparently. there is no lucidity anywhere in the trinity doctrine.


God is not the son of God. there is only one God, Yahweh aka, God the Father, aka the Holy spirit. No one is their own daddy.

There is no explanation for the Trinity doctrine because it is a contradiction. trinity is 3 gods that are one god, and that contradiction cannot be explained.

Um, try the triple point of any liquid substance. Sorry, but three being one while being three is something that we see in nature . . . srry dude.

 

[Don Scott]

Der Alter,
I'm sorry I'm still waiting on Jesus calling Himself God.or at least the phrases i mentioned above.but i'll look at (and i'm sure i'll respond to) your posts,thanx

 

[Don Scott]

UM? - Paul is doing the opposite. Read it again and put it in context. Let us know when you think that you understand it. In the meantime, do some work and study for yourself.

with all due respect,Not only does Paul call Jesus the First "Born" of all "creation",he(Paul) calls Jesus an "image" of God,an "IMAGE",maybe you need to drop your traditions and do a bit of "study"

 

[Evergreen48]

why? Why did God give Jesus alone the ability?

We have the same ability.

Why can't I use the same ability and succeed?

That is the wrong question. The right question would be: why don't I use the same ability and succeed? And that is a question only you can answer. Besides yourself, only God knows what is in your heart and mind. But personally, I believe that a good place for anyone to start would be admitting to self and God that they are entirely without excuse for breaking his holy laws, and approach the 'throne of grace' and through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, ask for forgiveness and cleansing.

What about this passage...
1 John 1:8-10 (New International Version)


8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

See above.

In addition, do we also have the power and authority to forgive sin, not offenses committed against us, but actual sin...where did that authority come from if Jesus was man only?


Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
11I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
12And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

No, we do not have the authority to forgive sin, for we are sinners ourselves. Jesus was given authority from God to forgive sins here on earth because he was perfectly obedient to the Father and was worthy.

still don't get it, still haven't answered my question...what made Jesus able to be without sin when the other billions upon billions of people in this world could not...what made Him different?

Jesus made his own self different from 'other billions upon billions of people' in the world. And those billions upon billions of people could most certainly have been without sin if they had been in the same close and perfect harmony with God as Jesus was.

Matthew 17: 18. "And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. 19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 21. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting."

Matthew 4:1 "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3. And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5. Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6. And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9. And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11. Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him."

Read the scriptures posted very carefully and thoughtfully. For in them you will find your answer as to why Jesus was different from every other human being that has resided, does reside, and will reside upon the face of this earth.

Are you trying to claim that His difference was that He didn't think, He was some kind of idiot that just assumed that the draws of the flesh weren't really calling Him? If so, why didn't they call Him?

This particular comment does not deserve an answer.

What is the difference between Jesus and the other billions of people in the world? What is the secret so that the rest of us can live the rest of our lives without sin?

I believe I have already covered what the difference was between Jesus and all the rest of us, and there
is no secret involved. Jesus made it plain that if we obey the commandments (the ten) we would be rightful heirs of the kingdom of heaven.

May I ask which ones of the 'ten' do you find impossible to obey?

just as we are not able to be without sin according to scripture...but that is another part of the above and should be addressed once you have explained what the difference between Jesus and man is if not deity.

I have explained the difference between Jesus and the rest of us. So, once again I would ask where it is found in the scripture that we are not able to be sinless.

so explain then what is different about Jesus and how the above passages are justified if Jesus was not fully man and fully God.

I've already explained what was 'different' about Jesus". And you would have to be more specific about the 'above passages'. Which ones are you referring to?

I thought I understood it, apparently I don't have a clue, at this point, you can try to explain it in a manner in which I have some grasp, or you can continue to accuse me falsely and end the discussion before it gets really interesting.

Sorry I came across as 'accusing you falsely'. I did not mean to do that.

My original comment was:
"There is a vast difference between 'could Not' and 'would Not'. And we are guilty, guilty, guilty! Because we could have but did not."

To which you replied: "see above, I'm anxious for your response."

I am assuming that by 'see above' you were referring to your comment of: "In Christ we are capable, without Christ we are not.", which does not seem to me to be related to the comment that I had made.

So, do you agree or disagree that there is a difference between 'could not' and 'would not', and do you agree or disagree that what proves us to be guilty is that we could have obeyed all his holy laws, but would not and did not?

How is a man (Christ) able to give you His mind, especially if He died a couple of thousand years ago?

Scripture says that the Christians in Corinth to whom Paul wrote had the mind of Christ to teach them.

1 Cor. 2: "14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15.But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Do you believe that Christ is risen from the dead and has descended to where he sits at the right hand of God his Father where he makes intercession for us? If you do, then that would answer your question.


1 Cor. 15: "45.And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born from above. So whose mind do you think is the one which is born from above?

I'm willing, I'm sacrificing to have it, and still I can't succeed at it and scripture tells us that if we deny this, we are liars and have no truth in it. So you still haven't answered the question...1. how was Jesus able to, and 2. how was Jesus able to make the claim and still not be a liar if scripture says any man making the claim is a liar?

What are you 'sacrificing to have it'? And yes, I believe I have answered your question.

The scripture does not say that 'any man making the claim is a liar'. The scripture says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." I am sure you know that Jesus was not included in the 'we'. The 'we' in that verse was referring to John himself, and those to whom he wrote the letter.

But it was the analogy you gave to illustrate your point. So in order for your analogy to work for what you are saying, the baby has to have the ability to not wet his diaper, so your own analogy didn't work for your claim and you are complaining because I used your broken analogy to make a counter point?

The analogy I gave was to illustrate the point that God bein a just and a fair God, does not judge us for things that we are unable to avoid doing. You completely ignored the very valid point that I made, and went off in another direction about something that had absolutely nothing to do with the comment I had made.

Also, you have not replied to several of my comments which are pertinent to this discussion. When I have time I will go back through and repost them for your consideration and reply.


From the above comment on down in your post you have addressed comments that 2ducklow made to me, so it would be hard for me to reply to them, but I am replying to 2duck concerning them.


I am sorry I have taken so long to answer you, but a close neighbor in our little community here where I live passed away 2 days ago, and everything has been kind of hectic and 'up in the air' since then. So if I have not covered all of your comments that concern me, please feel free to repost and I will get back to you as soon as things here settle back down to normal.

 

[Don Scott]

Der Alter,
Not only do your "37 NT verses which refer or address Jesus as God" NOT DO SO,they repeatedly call Jesus the "IMAGE" or "Son of God" only,what am i missing here?

 

[Evergreen48]

Do you believe we are all born into sin, born sinners that is? Except Jesus.

I believe we were all born into a sinful 'atmosphere' which exhibits examples which is natural for us to follow. But I do not believe we were born sinners. We were no different than Jesus in that respect. We, as well as Jesus who had a fleshly nature the same as we, were born with a propensity toward sinning. The only way that Jesus was different from the rest of us was that He overcame all of those temptations that came as as the result of being born into this sinful 'atmosphere' where wickedness and ungodliness reigned.

Hebrews 2: 17. "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

Hebrews 4:14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

That's my belief, I beleive we all sin at times because we are sinners, we were born that way, whereas Jesus was like adam before the fall, sinnless, and whereas Adam failed in his walk with God, Jesus succeeded. Your statements suggest to me that you do not believe that we are born in sin, correct?

Yes, that is correct. As already explained, I do not believe we are born sinners.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Doesn't this verse mean that Jesus did not commit sin because he was born of God? amongst other things.

No, I do not see it that way, for we are born of God also, but still sin. I do not believe it is the man who is born of God who sins. It is the old man obeying the fleshly desires that sins. When we are born of God, or born from above, another man (mind) comes into existence. The new man (mind), or the man (mind) who is born of God 'inhabits' our fleshly identity until such time as there is no more fleshly body or identity, and then it moves into the spiritual body which has been prepared for it/him /her, whatever the case may be.

If it were impossible for Jesus to sin, that would show God to be unjust, as He would be judging us by someone who had an advantage that we did not have.