Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (2)

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JimR-OCDS

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forgiveness is part of love...how could you not love and still accept their apology? Ozell has been asked this question before and refused to answer, so I thought I'd ask you or anyone and see if I could get a better handle on the idea of conditional love. conditional love isn't love at all, and would not allow forgiveness, so how could one forgive someone if all love is removed?


Well that's the point isn't it?

When a parent loves a child, but that child grows up and does them wrong, do they stop loving the child even if the child never returns to them and ask for forgiveness? However, if that child does return and repent, isn't there great joy and celebration by the parent?

Jesus told the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32, to show what unconditional love is. The father loved his son, even after his son left him , wasted all of his inheritance and tarnished his good name. He forgave his son and celebrated when he returned.

It isn't the son's act that made the father love the son, for that love was there all along. It was the son's act that gave joy and reason to celebrate to his father.

However if the father did not love the son to begin with, he would've sent out some one to kill his son as he approached for the wrong he had done.

It seems to me, that we Christians would know about God's unconditional love, for we have experienced it.

Jim
 
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razzelflabben

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Well that's the point isn't it?

When a parent loves a child, but that child grows up and does them wrong, do they stop loving the child even if the child never returns to them and ask for forgiveness? However, if that child does return and repent, isn't there great joy and celebration by the parent?
that seems to be the point of the prodigal son, but what do I know, I take the totality of scripture, not just a couple of proof texted passages.
Jesus told the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32, to show what unconditional love is. The father loved his son, even after his son left him , wasted all of his inheritance and tarnished his good name. He forgave his son and celebrated when he returned.

It isn't the son's act that made the father love the son, for that love was there all along. It was the son's act that gave joy and reason to celebrate to his father.

However if the father did not love the son to begin with, he would've sent out some one to kill his son as he approached for the wrong he had done.

It seems to me, that we Christians would know about God's unconditional love, for we have experienced it.

Jim
one would think...but we also need to try to grasp what is missing in the alternate teaching if we hope to restore those to rightness with God.
 
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ozell

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=Christownsme;55740418]Ozell,
Don't you know that by your own words you are condemning yourself? You can't find eternal life thru a conditional loving God. You'll sin too often. You're only human. He'll stop loving you, and all of a sudden you'll die and rot in hell. That's not the Love of God!! You know it, too, I believe. You like to argue.

No I don't like to argue which you believe, yet don't know, even though I'm telling you I don't.

yes we sin Brother, but the Lord left a opt out. he said

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Now once we have repented

what are we to do next?

Jn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Jn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Now you read where Jesus said sin no more, do you not read this?

so if Jesus said sin no more can this be done? or is Jesus lying?

Now that you have stop committing the sin you have repented of what have you sone?


Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

you have showed the Lord that you love him by keeping his commandments

and now the LORD loves you because you kept his commandments

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


its very simple when the denomination doctrine is not clogging the mind!

as far as eternal life again the mouth of Jesus said this

Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

JESUS said
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Brother

who words are these? JESUS words!!

You need to pray for mercy, that God would show you what love is. I have the same problem sometimes. But I'm not going to condemn myself by what I don't understand. We're to lean on God, not our own understanding, and come to Jesus as a child. If you're trying to make a point, you've made it: you're not choosing God, you're choosing evil. I plead for you, don't play games with God's Holy Word. Choose life

so you are saying keeping God's commandments is evil?

God said
Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

and he said

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

because He set these conditions concerning Love I'm evil?

:doh::confused:

Brother

its obvious you don't keep the commandments because you kick against it , who is really evil!!!

because Jesus says don't lie or kill and I follow this you call me evil

let the bible call who the evil one is

Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


check out these conditions the Lord said concerning his commandments which is LOVE!!

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

PEACE MY BROTHER in Jesus mighty NAME
 
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ozell

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=JimR-OCDS;55740479]Ozell,
let me ask you something.

Do you love anyone, i.e. child, mother, father, friend?

I love my Brothers and Sisters, like you and razzle according to the commandments


I keep God's commandments by loving you and everyone else this way

12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.
16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

If they do wrong to you, do you stop loving them until they repent and ask for your forgiveness?

what I do is this?

12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.
16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Brother Jim

it is how you love that counts.

God way of love is keeping the commandments

the commandments are conditions!

and last I'm not God!!

so I have to love until the Lord comes

the Lord on the other hand has a cut off point.

take a look

2Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

:idea: cutt off point!
 
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razzelflabben

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No I don't like to argue which you believe, yet don't know, even though I'm telling you I don't.

yes we sin Brother, but the Lord left a opt out. he said

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
wow, so what does Jesus have to gain from being our advocate? I mean, the opposite of love is selfish indifference, so if Jesus is our advocate out of something other than love, there has to be a selfish motive for Him to do so. What is that motive?
Now once we have repented

what are we to do next?

Jn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Jn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Now you read where Jesus said sin no more, do you not read this?

so if Jesus said sin no more can this be done? or is Jesus lying?

Now that you have stop committing the sin you have repented of what have you sone?
but is God doesn't love you when you have sinned, there is no reason for Him to forgive your sins. Forgiveness is also a part of love. In fact, love cannot exist if we first remove forgiveness.
Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

you have showed the Lord that you love him by keeping his commandments

and now the LORD loves you because you kept his commandments

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


its very simple when the denomination doctrine is not clogging the mind!

as far as eternal life again the mouth of Jesus said this

Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

JESUS said
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Brother

who words are these? JESUS words!!
exactly, we can't be without sin by our own power only the power of the Lord Jesus Christ...but that power is available to us because of His great and amazing love, not without it. If God withheld His love, we couldn't be saved, because the very act of salvation is a demonstration of how great that love really is.
so you are saying keeping God's commandments is evil?
wow, who said keeping God's commandments was evil...you might want to read that again Ozell. Reading into other peoples posts can get you into trouble, just as it is your understanding of God's unconditional love.
God said
Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

and he said

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

because He set these conditions concerning Love I'm evil?

:doh::confused:

Brother

its obvious you don't keep the commandments because you kick against it , who is really evil!!!

because Jesus says don't lie or kill and I follow this you call me evil

let the bible call who the evil one is

Jn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
though shall not judge is also one of His commands, one that you have already broken many times over on this very thread. What does scripture say that makes you Ozell.....read it...what does it make you...?
check out these conditions the Lord said concerning his commandments which is LOVE!!

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

PEACE MY BROTHER in Jesus mighty NAME
yep, you claim to know Him, do not keep His commandments, then call others liars...scripture is calling you the liar dear one and most scripture is intended for self examination anyway, so you might want to rethink your objections to everyone who disagrees with you...just a prophetic word of warning, straight out of scripture.
 
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ozell

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what don't your understand, I just posted the scripture yet again...Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

Is it really that hard of a scripture for you to follow? I don't know, I am really grasping at straws trying to figure out what you aren't getting, it may sound like I am flaming or something, but I really am not, I don't understand how you could possibly read scripture and not understand what this clear, plainly spoken, passage is saying.

pay attention to these spiritual words

Jn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

try to grasp these spiritual words from the creator of conditions the mighty JESUS

pay attention

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

also

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

conditional love from the conditional God


you can't get no more spiritual than this!
 
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razzelflabben

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I love my Brothers and Sisters, like you and razzle according to the commandments


I keep God's commandments by loving you and everyone else this way

12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.
16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Ozell, you have broken this commandment against me alone several times on this thread, not to mention the same of others here. IOW's you are not keeping the commands by not loving...that according to scripture makes you a liar and what's more means that according to your theology, you cannot be restored to God because God no longer loves you. Sorry Ozell, the other poster was right, by your own words you are condemned.
17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.



what I do is this?

12: Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13: Thou shalt not kill.
14: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15: Thou shalt not steal.
16: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Brother Jim

it is how you love that counts.

God way of love is keeping the commandments

the commandments are conditions!

and last I'm not God!!

so I have to love until the Lord comes

the Lord on the other hand has a cut off point.

take a look

2Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

:idea: cutt off point!
You really have no clue what real love is, do you?
 
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ozell

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Jesus the God of Conditional love said


1Pt 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

was Noah saved?

what happen to the people who did not get on the ark?

what did the conditions call for to be saved?

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.





 
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ozell

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Godly Love is this People


Rom 13:

8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

do not be bewitched like the Galatians into thinking anything different!!!
 
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razzelflabben

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pay attention to these spiritual words

Jn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

try to grasp these spiritual words from the creator of conditions the mighty JESUS

pay attention

Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

also

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

conditional love from the conditional God


you can't get no more spiritual than this!
so your ignoring the passage I presented because you think you can dismiss what it says by applying your favorite passage...wow, all of scripture dear one is profitable for...Now let's go back and take a look at both scriptures in that they compliment one another not dismiss one another. The first passage, the one in ISaiah that you dismiss, says that God is not like us, His thoughts are higher than ours, His ways different and superior. IOW's we can't totally grasp and sometimes might not agree with God but in the end, He is always without fault.

This basically means we cannot apply man's morals, man's logic, man's reasoning to God and expect to understand God through it. They are not the same and so we try to understand, we work at gaining knowledge (something you should try to do more of) and then accept what we found on faith.

Now let's take that biblical truth and add the passages you presented instead of trying to use scripture to trump other scripture let's apply literary rules to the scripture and see what it all means together.

Jn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.[/quote] here we are talking about the HS that lives in us and through us and is our strength. It is the same HS that teaches us and interprets scripture. Therefore there can only be one correct interpretation and that interpretation is identified by the power and might of the HS within. See, this passage inlightens the other one, not trumps it. Understanding God's ways, which are not our ways, comes through the HS not self. Before you can grasp the amazing eternal love of our Lord Jesus Christ, Ozell, you must allow the HS to teach you the truths of scripture, rather than leaning on your own understanding. An idea that if found other places in scripture as well, like...
Proverbs 3:5-6 (New International Version)


5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [a]
Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
now we have talked about this passage from the very start of this thread, and you still refuse to listen to anything but your own intellect, so I'm not even going down that path again. Instead we will apply this passage to the ISaiah passage I presented to you. Let's start by looking at the rest of the paragraph... 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

See again, we are referring to the HS within. A HS that makes the Isiah 55 passage come alive. But again, let's not stop there, let's look for consistency....read...
John 15:13-15 (New International Version)

13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.


Notice especially vs. 15, the reason we are no longer just servants is because Jesus confides in us. We now have the HS to interpret for us, it is no longer relying on our own interpretations to understand, but now, the HS within interprets for us and because we have proven ourselves to be worthy, we have the secrets of our Lord. A secret that starts by understanding that His whole being radiates love, real, abiding, unconditional love.
also

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
again, we have talked about this passage a lot and you have been shown why it doesn't mean what you are trying to force it to mean, but let's put all that aside for the moment and apply it to the Isaiah passage you were presented. 1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Notice verse 4 takes us right back to faith...a faith that is the vision we are to have. A faith that shows us the ways of God rather than our ways. Until you take of the blinders of the world and put on the glasses of faith, corrective lens that are the HS, you will never understand what God has for you in these passages. You have to stop looking at them through your eyes and start looking at them through the HS, the Spirit of truth, or you will simply continue to miss God and ignore the word that is presented to you.
 
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ozell

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God's love is conditional

lets read where Jesus was going to kill Moses for not circumcusing his son.

Exodus 4
24: And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
25: Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

all thru out the bible the Lord speaks of a person being cut off from among the people

do this really sound like a God who loves everyone and everything because man has labeled his a GOD of unconditional love?
 
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ozell

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if the God of unconditionally love exist why did he say the righteous are scarcely saved

Jesus the God of Conditional love said


1Pt 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


why will this God who loves everyone giving Peter a question like

where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

when we all know that the GOD of unconditional love should not have sinners and ungodly people because he loves and forgive everyone no matter what?

the should appear in the kingdom with everyone else :doh:

he supposely loves everyone!!:confused:
 
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Christownsme

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Ozell,
I'm thru trying to prove a point. I know you can't change what I believe about God's unconditional love. You won't change me. But I can't change you,either. Only God's Holy Spirit can change you. So from here on out, I'll just remind you that you're in my heart and prayers.

"May God help any unbelief for Ozell. He is a precious person in God's eyes who needs to know Your eternal love. We want to see God's growth in this person and we just want his joy to be full in the confidence of You, Lord. Looking past anything that would get in the way of his happiness, Lord, bless him with Yourself. Convict, continue to draw, and continue to clean all our hearts. None of us are exempt from being filthy rags without the shed blood of Jesus over us. God, your love and your word is sharper than any two-edged sword. Pierce our hearts just as you were pierced to the heart for our sins. Help Ozell find you and to find brokenness and humility, like we all need, to find You. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen."
 
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ozell

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Ozell,
I'm thru trying to prove a point. I know you can't change what I believe about God's unconditional love. You won't change me. But I can't change you,either. Only God's Holy Spirit can change you. So from here on out, I'll just remind you that you're in my heart and prayers.

"May God help any unbelief for Ozell. He is a precious person in God's eyes who needs to know Your eternal love. We want to see God's growth in this person and we just want his joy to be full in the confidence of You, Lord. Looking past anything that would get in the way of his happiness, Lord, bless him with Yourself. Convict, continue to draw, and continue to clean all our hearts. None of us are exempt from being filthy rags without the shed blood of Jesus over us. God, your love and your word is sharper than any two-edged sword. Pierce our hearts just as you were pierced to the heart for our sins. Help Ozell find you and to find brokenness and humility, like we all need, to find You. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen."

why do you assume I'm trying to change you?
who are you anyway?

Go back and reread your post and ask yourself

why are millions of Christians without homes?,
why are millions of christians without jobs?
why are millions of christians lack adequate food?

get your head out of the sand and look around you

christians are in trouble all over the world because people teach that God loves them unconditionally

tell the truth God love those who love him!!!

you love God by keeping his commandments

show them the scriptures and testament

you them this Prov 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

also

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

BROTHER

save your prayer for those who really need it like the child molesting perverted priest who rape little boys

who many of you say God loves because God loves everyone no matter what they do.

shame on you all!!!!
 
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ozell

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Satan is the God of this world, he is the strong man of this world until the Lord come and bind him and TAKE IT!!!

2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Mk 3v23: And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables,

How can Satan cast out Satan?

24: And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25: And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26: And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

27: No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
 
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