Who did away with the law?

[Frogster]

Your name is quite fitting. You're jumping all over the place.

Thanks for speaking for Paul, but you're obviously missing that what Paul is stating is that the Torah made him realize what sin actually was so that he would not commit it.

The Torah is not sin, nor oriented around sin. Thats where you're getting mixed up. It was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai in its written form from God to man. Thus, it is a gift from God.

Also, if sin is that which takes us into captivity as is also written by Paul, then why does James contradict him in 2:12? 12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,

You did not refute the verses..

The power if sin is the law..NO?

Sinful passions aroused by the law..NO?

James and peter called the law a burden in Acts 15, and paul called in bondage 4 times in Galatians, and he said it was elemental and childlike too. I have scripture if you so desire.

Look..Peter..

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

James.


Acts 15:19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

 

[hamashiachagape]

You did not refute the verses..

The power if sin is the law..NO?

Sinful passions aroused by the law..NO?

James and peter called the law a burden in Acts 15, and paul called in bondage 4 times in Galatians, and he said it was elemental and childlike too. I have scripture if you so desire.

Look..Peter..

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

James.


Acts 15:19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

Acts 15:21. You're still missing the point of whats being conveyed here. We're not going to dump it on them all at once, but break them into it because they have been following paganistic rituals all of their lives. They will learn it all in the synagogues.

 

[Frogster]

Frogster, you make good points here.

But also keep in mind, God's yoke is easy. See Deuteronomy 30:11-14 " 11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Yet they did not obey it, that is why Paul quotes that in Rom 10, because faith is not law..just believe unto righteousness.

read five, it was a a do and don't do system, that was part of the ministry of death and condemantion, as per 2 Cor 3.



5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Frogster]

Acts 15:21. You're still missing the point of whats being conveyed here. We're not going to dump it on them all at once, but break them into it because they have been following paganistic rituals all of their lives. They will learn it all in the synagogues.

Not at all, Paul did not want the Galatians under law, Acts 15 can be seen in Gal 2.

Paul and Barnabas hotly conteseted those, who tried to add Moses.

15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

Don't forget, Peter and James agreed with Paul.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Yet they did not obey it, that is why Paul quotes that in Rom 10, because faith is not law..just believe unto righteousness.

read five, it was a a do and don't do system, that was part of the ministry of death and condemantion, as per 2 Cor 3.



5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is a single application. And Paul does not shoot down the Torah here anyways, but rather promotes its following. If he did, he would be in violation of Deuteronomy 13. After all, Yeshua did say not one jot or tittle, didn't he?

Remember Romans 10:4 telos is utilized there. Meaning that Yeshua is the goal of the Torah. Not the end of it in a hellenized understanding.

 

[Frogster]

So who is this friend who got killed for picking up sticks?

Just joking..but the guy was stoned for gathering sticks. Do we uphold the law still?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Not at all, Paul did not want the Galatians under law, Acts 15 can be seen in Gal 2.

Paul and Barnabas hotly conteseted those, who tried to add Moses.

15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

Don't forget, Peter and James agreed with Paul.

I can see you don't understand the Torah too well. The circumcision law applied primarily to 8 day old babies.

 

[Frogster]

That is a single application. And Paul does not shoot down the Torah here anyways, but rather promotes its following. If he did, he would be in violation of Deuteronomy 13. After all, Yeshua did say not one jot or tittle, didn't he?

Remember Romans 10:4 telos is utilized there. Meaning that Yeshua is the goal of the Torah. Not the end of it in a hellenized understanding.

At a football game, where is the goal post?

The endzone!

Why didn't paul want the Mosaic law reinstated?

18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

 

[hamashiachagape]

Just joking..but the guy was stoned for gathering sticks. Do we uphold the law still?

The Cohen HaGodel has put off the death penalty until his return. Perhaps he will deem it fit to stone all the sinners at that time.

 

[hamashiachagape]

At a football game, where is the goal post?

The endzone!

Why didn't paul want the Mosaic law reinstated?

18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

And where is this writing taking place? In Ancient Near East culture.

Maybe Paul didn't want the Mosaic law reinstated because he wanted to gather all the disciples around to watch the NFL on TV.

New Testament scholar CEB Cranfield also states that Galatians 2:16 and 2:21 is talking about a legalistic following of the Torah, something similar to that of a Talmudic understanding. Given Paul's background is that of a Pharisee, something similar to that of a rabbinical Jew, what he was giving up was that stuff that Yeshua was talking about when he talks about the traditions of men getting in the way of following the Torah.

 

[visionary]

Just joking..but the guy was stoned for gathering sticks. Do we uphold the law still?

IF Yeshua is now the administrator of the application of punishment, then I leave it in His hands to "stone' the man for picking up sticks...

But then the verse comes to mind.. Yeshua knows that they will ask for the punishment themselves...

Revelation 6:16
They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

 

[Frogster]

I can see you don't understand the Torah too well. The circumcision law applied primarily to 8 day old babies.

The galatians were adults.

5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified [1] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Say...you never refuted that the power of sin is the law, and that it roused sin, as per rom 7;5.

 

[Frogster]

And where is this writing taking place? In Ancient Near East culture.

Maybe Paul didn't want the Mosaic law reinstated because he wanted to gather all the disciples around to watch the NFL on TV.

Thanks..at least you admit Paul did not want the law reinstated..most don't.

 

[Frogster]

IF Yeshua is now the administrator of the application of punishment, then I leave it in His hands to "stone' the man for picking up sticks...

But then the verse comes to mind.. Yeshua knows that they will ask for the punishment themselves...

Revelation 6:16
They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

ummmm..my dear sis..

are we stoned for working or not?

 

[hamashiachagape]

Thanks..at least you admit Paul did not want the law reinstated..most don't.

Eh, not so much. 2 Peter 3:15-18 states that Paul did not do away with the Wisdom of God (the Torah). Thus, not only are you calling Paul a liar, you are now calling his close associate Peter a liar.

Also see Acts 24:14. 14However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Is Luke also a liar?

 

[hamashiachagape]

The galatians were adults.

5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified [1] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Say...you never refuted that the power of sin is the law, and that it roused sin, as per rom 7;5.

Again, CEB Cranfield mentions that "justified by the law" is another way of expressing halakah observance. Anything actually that utilizes erega nomou or upo nomon.

What Paul is actually trying to convey here is that if you follow the Torah in a legalistic manner, which it seemed some of the Gentiles were doing, it will do you no good. This is also confessed by Ariel Berkowitz, a Masters in Theology who became a Messianic Jew.

 

[visionary]

ummmm..my dear sis..

are we stoned for working or not?

Ask Yeshua, He is the judge now..

 

[7steps]

God found fault with the people. You don't think he knew theyt would break it?

Why was the law added?

20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

So he was trying to make them sin more so they could have grace. I don't get that?

 

[Pythons]

This is exactly why I am confused I did Google SDA and their main site says this about the Sabbath

The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

I did not see where it said that they celebrate the Sabbath because of when Jesus died in 31 C.E. So that is why I am asking the question. Could you post a source that the reason they celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday is because Jesus was suppose to have died that day?

All you just posted is possible theology BECAUSE of the 2300 SDA prophecy....
...It all evaporates without it.
...And evaporates with it as you will see.

Here is your link.

Investigative judgment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Pythons]

Just saying .. go after the message.. if you don't like it.. prove otherwise via scripture

That's what I've done, I've gone after the SDA message that church on Sunday will become Mark of the Beast....
...And I've used Scripture to do it.
...And thrown in the Gregorian Calendar in addition.


[/quote=visionary]
... but to turn this thread into another congregational bashing kinda looses the focus of the subject itself.
[/quote]

No bashing here, I'm just calling out the foolish teaching that Jesus died at Passover in 31 A.D.....
...AND that is coincided with a Gregorian Friday, Sat, Sun.

That's the subject ITSELF, wanna deal with it?

Let's work on seeing if it will hold up on its own merits without the messenger diss'ings. It really shows a lack of anything better to say. I have seen many verbal discussions loose value when one of the parties resorts to name calling. The minute you have to resort to picking on the messenger, even if it is the source for such theology, you are revealing your lack of a better explanation. Hence, my hint to stay focused on the subject matter and not the source. After all, is it not your objective to have them see differently regarding this subject matter... then the source will no longer have its influence.

How about we deal with O.P. Visionary.....
...The O.P. which deals with the question on "who changed the law".

If the Saturday Sabbath is considered "the law" or a part of "the law"...
...Then the Saturday Sabbath is part of this discussion.

If the SDA Church would NOT exist w/out their 2300 year prophecy....
...And it's proven THAT PROPHECY was validated on a different sabbath.
...Then the Saturday sabbath isn't that important after all.

So far I've not had anyone say the Passover in 31 A.D. could include a Fri, Sat, Sun.....
...Have you?

I've had several people maintain a Wed cross......
...And they more then made my point.