What if Mary appeared to you? [MOVED TO MARIOLOGY]

[Deut 5:29]

So you say, but you weren't there.

Peter seemed to think they had really come: "'Rabbi, it is good that we are here! Let us make three tents: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.'"

No, Jesus said, Mat. 17:9and it doesn't matter what Peter thought at the time.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=judechild;As to what I would do if Mary appeared to me; I would consider the fruits of the encounter. After all, the devil or a demon cannot appear to a person unless God allows the demon to, so there are a few possibilities: She may not say anything. In this case, I would be almost certain that the encounter was a true vision or visitation because what would the demon stand to gain by appearing to me and doing nothing?

Quiet affirmation of false beliefs about Mary.

If the fruits of the encounter were to lead me to deeper prayer, or progress in virtue, my certainty would increase further.

Those can be redefined to orient then toward false beliefs.
Muslims get led into deeper prayer & progress in virtue too.

If these appearances became numerious, and I was of sound mind, I would have to consider why they are occuring, which may be for a variety of reasons.

Or if you are in fact of sound mind.

She may, on the other hand, say something. In this case, I would know if the visitation were legitimate or not by comparison. Because of the Church, I would be able to measure what she says to Divine Revelation; private Revelation is subservient to public Revelation. If the visitation said something contrary to the Faith (such as 'My Son is not God, but only a manifestation of the True God.') I would know the visitation is false.

Wouldn't satan know that? Remember he was SUBTLE in the garden?

If, however, what she said to me was not contrary to the faith, but merely encouraged me to do something that was good that I had neglected (like 'I want you to stop arguing online so much and devote more of your time to prayer"), I could consider that the visitation was true.

Then it would definitely be satanic because we are showing you the error of it online.

As to what I would actually do as she/it was standing/floated/swimming in front of me; I certainly wouldn't rebuke it (after all, the first words out of Mary's mouth to Gabriel were not 'I rebuke you in the Name of the God of Israel!!!). I would pray and inquire as to why she/it was here with me. Since she was Mary, I would ask also to touch her; since she has a body, I sould be able to feel her physicality.

The senses are the least trustworthy. Your very instincts betray you.

Why not appeal to Jesus? We have direct access. He's omnipotent & omnipotent & omniscient so it's not like it would be difficult for Him.

 

[judechild]

Then it would definitely be satanic because we are showing you the error of it online.

Sir, if God wanted to show me the "error of my ways" online, he would send me a better teacher.

 

[judechild]

No, Jesus said, Mat. 17:9and it doesn't matter what Peter thought at the time.

John the Apostle was taken up to heaven in the Book of Revelation(ie, Rev 11:1,2), but described it as a vision ("After this I had a vision of an open door to heaven," - Rev. 4:1); it doesn't mean he wasn't taken up to heaven.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sir, if God wanted to show me the "error of my ways" online, he would send me a better teacher.

Good thing ya can't see me thru the monitor when I am shown the error of my ways

 

[Dark_Lite]

No, Jesus said, Mat. 17:9and it doesn't matter what Peter thought at the time.

You are justifying your idea with "Don't tell anyone what you have seen?" That verse says nothing about the experience being all in their heads. In fact, there is nothing in all of Matthew 17 to suggest it was not a real experience. I think you're just trying to find any way possible to make it so it wasn't "dead" people coming down from heaven.

 

[Deut 5:29]

You are justifying your idea with "Don't tell anyone what you have seen?" That verse says nothing about the experience being all in their heads. In fact, there is nothing in all of Matthew 17 to suggest it was not a real experience. I think you're just trying to find any way possible to make it so it wasn't "dead" people coming down from heaven.

Mat. 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

You need to get youself some reading glasses, or get out of that dark_lite and into the sunshine.

 

[Deut 5:29]

John the Apostle was taken up to heaven in the Book of Revelation(ie, Rev 11:1,2), but described it as a vision ("After this I had a vision of an open door to heaven," - Rev. 4:1); it doesn't mean he wasn't taken up to heaven.

That's exactly what it means. He was taken in vision, not in reality.

 

[Rick Otto]

Sir, if God wanted to show me the "error of my ways" online, he would send me a better teacher.

You mean someone you already respect & believe?
Jesus was the best teacher & the traditionalists had Him killed.
Must God live up to your expectations? Isn't the truth enough?

 

[judechild]

That's exactly what it means. He was taken in vision, not in reality.

Many passages show him to be physically present, including the one I referenced.

 

[judechild]

You mean someone you already respect & believe?
Jesus was the best teacher & the traditionalists had Him killed.
Must God live up to your expectations? Isn't the truth enough?

I could ask you the same questions. Sir, you are no better than me, but you seem so aristocratic. I have deep reasons for what I believe, and you do not help your cause to treat me either as a nine-year-old, or as a demon. The first step in convincing another person of your viewpoint is to have the courage to acknowledge that the other person has reasons for thinking the way he does as well, and that those reasons will take time to change. They will not change because you pretend they don't exist.

If I am wrong in what I say, the God who loves me will correct me in time. However, He can do that without your help or hinderence; you are not my savior however much you may try to make me believe that.

Now, may we return to the topic?

 

[Rick Otto]

In his vision, he was physicaly present.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Mat. 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

You need to get youself some reading glasses, or get out of that dark_lite and into the sunshine.

What translation are you using?

Here is a bunch of translations side by side: Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

The Geneva Study Bible clarifies its use of "vision" to mean a literal sighting.

I don't think you are correct about this.

 

[judechild]

In his vision, he was physicaly present.

Wonderful Rick; if he was physically present in his vision, then it seems to me that the vision is more than a picture in his mind.

 

[judechild]

You need to get youself some reading glasses, or get out of that dark_lite and into the sunshine.

Charming.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=judechild;I could ask you the same questions. Sir, you are no better than me,

Maybe...

but you seem so aristocratic.

Why? 'Cause I use a dictionary?

I have deep reasons for what I believe, and you do not help your cause to treat me either as a nine-year-old, or as a demon.

You should have deep reasons, Why do you say I'm treating you like a 9yr old or a demon? I haven't told you to go stand in the corner or threatened to tell your mom. I haven't sacrificed a baby to you or rebuked you in Jesus name & told you to go. Are you maybe being a little oversensitive? I can imagine I come off as undersensitive, but I have deep reasons too. I sometimes feel like I'M being treated like a 9yr old & a demon, but complaining never seems to help.
Anyway, thanks for tellin' me straight up & not bothering the already busy mods.

The first step in convincing another person of your viewpoint is to have the courage to acknowledge that the other person has reasons for thinking the way he does as well, and that those reasons will take time to change. They will not change because you pretend they don't exist.

Well now I'm REALY sorry I came off that way because it is those very reasons I am here to address.

If I am wrong in what I say, the God who loves me will correct me in time. However, He can do that without your help or hinderence; you are not my savior however much you may try to make me believe that.

I'm relieved.

Now, may we return to the topic?

Go right ahead. I'll try not to interrupt.

 

[Rick Otto]

Wonderful Rick; if he was physically present in his vision, then it seems to me that the vision is more than a picture in his mind.

It shouldn't. In our minds we can be anything.
In the picture in his mind, he was physicaly present.
But vision is more than a thought or mental picture.
A vision usualy seems more real than most dreams, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Thaeoles]

Sir, if God wanted to show me the "error of my ways" online, he would send me a better teacher.

God has spoken through the mouth of an ass before. (Numbers 22)

 

[sunlover1]

What translation are you using?

Here is a bunch of translations side by side: Matthew 17:9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

The Geneva Study Bible clarifies its use of "vision" to mean a literal sighting.

I don't think you are correct about this.

Trying to figure this out for you using my new Bible Study program but it's pretty fancy and I am not positive....
I 'think' that the word for vision i Horama

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The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3705 Original WordWord Originoramafrom (3708)Transliterated WordTDNT EntryHorama5:371,706Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechhor'-am-ah Noun Neuter Definition

1. that which is seen, spectacle
2. a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

NAS Word Usage - Total: 12sight 1, vision 11 NAS Verse Count Matthew1Acts11Total12

 

[Rick Otto]

God has spoken through the mouth of an ass before. (Numbers 22)

Hey! Did you mean that like,"so it's no surprise He's using Otto?!"
I can't take this. I'm going to grab a carrot & an apple & go sulk in my stall.