Jesus Loves You

LittleLambofJesus

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Food for thought:
Peter denied Christ three times.
Paul had Christ followers stoned.
Well, actually I think he just stood by giving his approval

Acts 7:51 Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised to hearts and to the ears, ye always to the Spirit, the Holy are striving! As the fathers of ye, also ye:
58 and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning [him] --and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"
[Revelation 16:21]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6719420-6/#post42547190
Stoning of Stephen against the Law
 
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Zeena

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And yet, the "it's not a religion, it's a personal relationship"-angle has only been around for a couple of decades, curiously coinciding with the time when people started to get suspicious of organized world views and their sweeping meta-narratives.
Actually, even the Apostles testified this very thing;

Saint Paul testified of his former religion;

Acts 26:4-5,9-11
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

You see how Saul's religion wrought in him all manner of evil? He was deceiving his own heart, deadening his conscience in the persecution of the Saints.

To which Saint James testified accordingly;

James 1:26-27
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

It's also patently false, seeing how even "personal relationship"-Christianity relies on the Scriptures and specific beliefs and practices derived from the same.
The Scripture bears Witness, through the Spirit, that what we've received through contemplation is the truth, or not, for some have deceived themselves and are deceived. The Scripture elucidates the moral code written on our (Gentile) hearts and the Law unto the Jew. Demystifying what is written on our hearts by the Spirit of the Allmighty.

Now, if one comes to know and understand the truth, and then turn away unto vanity, coming again unto the Scripture for clarification.. His witness will be that he is indeed a sinner, in need of a new heart. If he hears not this truth it is because he desires to continue in willful sin.

1 Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Religion is simply the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Religion is a way of life, faith is a way of living. Saul had a way of life, Paul has a way of living that life. A way of life is to do, and way of living is to be.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:11-12
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Romans 2:23-25
Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Duet 25:4
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Acts 7:51-53,57-60
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
You don't need a hierarchy of priests in order to have a religion. All you need is an organized world view - and THAT is what Christianity is in virtually all of its variant strains.
This world is not created in chaos, if you look around you find a silent symettry in everything that is created. Is the lion not the king of jungle? Are not worms the food of sparrows? Is not God higher than we?

Therefore there is indeed a 'hierarchy', so to speak.
Even angels are stronger than men, yet men are created in the image of God.

Ecc 9:11-18
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me: There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it: Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man. Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard. The words of wise men are heard in quiet more than the cry of him that ruleth among fools. Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

1 Cor 4:10
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

2 Cor 13:4
For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

If all you're saying is that attending church each Sunday doesn't make you a Christian - then I agree. But religion is something more than that.
Attending church on sunday is a religious practice, is it not? One of many that people have built upon that sure foundation which is Christ, but a religious practice nonetheless.

To say one is a son of God and not be Christ-like, this person deceives only themselves.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

It doesn't have to involve ritual at all.
It HAS to involve the Person of Jesus, or it's FAKE. :wave:

CWR Rules said:
If you are too upset or emotional to post in a calm and respectful manner, please step away and do something else (like knit!) until you can address the topic at hand without responding with insults and flames.
 
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Josiah14

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Jesus Loves You


That's what I'm afraid of.

If Jesus Loves me, and God is Love, and God is also an all-consuming fire...

Then Jesus is consuming all of me in fire. Indeed, we are tested by fire, and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. The Grace of God both deifies the saints and burns the unworthy. Lord, have mercy!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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That's what I'm afraid of.

If Jesus Loves me, and God is Love, and God is also an all-consuming fire...

Then Jesus is consuming all of me in fire. Indeed, we are tested by fire, and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. The Grace of God both deifies the saints and burns the unworthy. Lord, have mercy!
:thumbsup: :amen:

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me that I am being pained in the Flame this."
[Matthew 3:9/Acts 7:30-38]

Reve 1:14 The yet head of Him, and the hairs are white as wool, white as snow, and the eyes of Him as flame of fire.
15 And the feet of Him like to white-bronze, as in a furnace having been refined/fired, and the sound/voice of Him as sound/voice of waters, many.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7458936-14/#post54510139
"for I am having 5 brothers...." Luke 16:28
 
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razeontherock

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All you need is an organized world view - and THAT is what Christianity is

You make it obvious you have NO idea what Christianity is! Maybe this is all you've encountered apart from here, but now you're being stubborn about it.
 
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SithDoughnut

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Apparently you failed to read the thread title?

Thread Title = Jesus Loves You

Topic At Hand = Visible Differences Between Faiths

Jesus Loves You =/= Visible Differences Between Faiths

∴

Thread Title =/= Topic At Hand

Surely you notice when threads deviate from the thread title?
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Actually, even the Apostles testified this very thing;
Except that they don't. See below:

Saint Paul testified of his former religion;

Acts 26:4-5,9-11
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
Summary: "I was a fanatical Pharisee, and therefore thought that I was justified in persecuting Christians, whom I considered heretics and blasphemers."

That's not a condemnation of religion vs. the contemporary "personal relationship"-angle, that's "I belonged to a religious group that held wrong beliefs before realizing that the very religion I persecuted was right".


James 1:26-27
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
See, he even cites "pure religion" as something to pursue, whereas the mere APPEARANCE of religiosity means nothing, and may very well just be hypocrisy.

This world is not created in chaos, if you look around you find a silent symettry in everything that is created. Is the lion not the king of jungle?
Actually, nope. Lions do not live in the jungle, but in the savannah, and their place within their particular ecological níche hardly bears any resemblance to a monarchy. They are pretty strong predators, but a giraffe, for example, can easily fight off or even kill a grown lion with a well-placed kick.
Are not worms the food of sparrows? Is not God higher than we?
Define "higher". Hierarchies exist within nature, but not in the shape you suggest here. They are usually the hallmark of social species like our own: wolf packs, ape clans, lion prides... you get the picture.

Therefore there is indeed a 'hierarchy', so to speak.
Even angels are stronger than men, yet men are created in the image of God.
I was talking about ecclesiastical hierarchies: Pope -> Cardinal -> Archbishop -> Bishop: that sort of thing.

Attending church on sunday is a religious practice, is it not? One of many that people have built upon that sure foundation which is Christ, but a religious practice nonetheless.
Absolutely. That's what I've been saying.
 
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Zeena

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Absolutely. That's what I've been saying.
Well that's not how I preceived what you were saying.

To me it sounded more along lines of, where there is a heirachy, there is error.

Querry, do you submit to your German form of government as the proper rule in Germany, providing the act in all good conscience?

Are you in the east or west?
 
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b&wpac4

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Acts 26:4-5,9-11
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

You see how Saul's religion wrought in him all manner of evil? He was deceiving his own heart, deadening his conscience in the persecution of the Saints.

Actually, I question a person that claims to be a Pharisee, and he's such a Pharisee that he.... goes and works for the Sadducees so he can persecute people, which is completely against the religious beliefs of both groups.
 
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razeontherock

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That's not a condemnation of religion vs. the contemporary "personal relationship"-angle

Yes it is. He got his info straight from the source. That's as "personal" as it gets, and is also what Jesus told Peter He would build His Church on. Jane, you're failing COSMICALLY here.

The Apostle you're pretending was holding up "religion" was also speaking from personal experience - having grown up in the same household as Jesus Himself.

That would be game, set and match.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Querry, do you submit to your German form of government as the proper rule in Germany, providing the act in all good conscience?
Not in the way you seem to suggest. I accept our elected representatives as such, and I consider our constitution and the rule of law as communal institutions aimed at providing stability to our society. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with authoritarianism or hierarchies. The only reason our elected representatives have any power is because we have given it to them - and, given the right circumstances, we could take it back.

Are you in the east or west?
There hasn't really been much of a distinction between the two since I was ten years old. Remember, the GDR ceased to be twenty years ago.
But I've grown up in what used to be the "West".
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Yes it is.
Except that, well, it still isn't. No magical evangelical spirit can change the basic meaning of a text - although it may very well make for a biased position from which to read it.
James even explicitly MENTIONS that "pure religion", IOW taking care of those in need, is to be pursued, and that it is the APPEARANCE of religiosity that cannot necessarily pinpoint hypocrites.

It's called "basic reading comprehension". :thumbsup:

Here, let me help you. I'll bold the critical parts:

James 1:26-27
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Actually, I question a person that claims to be a Pharisee, and he's such a Pharisee that he.... goes and works for the Sadducees so he can persecute people, which is completely against the religious beliefs of both groups.
Shalom b&w
Weren't Sadducees a sect of the Prieshood. They also did not believe in a resurrection according to Acts 23. Thoughts?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7454770-2/#post54419094
Why did Sadducees not believe in Resurrection? Acts 23:8

Acts 23:8 for Sadducees indeed are saying no to be resurrection, neither messenger, neither spirit, but Pharisees yet are avowing both .

 
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peaceful soul

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originally posted by Wicked Willow

Has anybody ever noted the immense hubris of assuming that the deeds of a couple of bipedal mammals at the outer fringes of an unremarkable, little galaxy are of utmost, cosmic importance to the satisfaction of an omniscient uberbeing?

I am not sure what the size of the universe has to do with God seeing us as being significant. What is it arrogant to believe? You assume that it is an assumption. Christians, for example, have something to base our belief upon. At least recognize that and not call it an assumption. If God created everything, then why wouldn't everything be equally significant?

When was the last time you were offended by a microbe stepping out of line and mating with the wrong microorganism?
"Sin" is just some kind of reverse narcissism, based on the crazy assumption that it's really all about us.

The world is not about us, but the problem of sin is all about us. Why? Because we are the only creatures with the capacity to reject God, which is the basis of sin. Rejecting God is a big deal.

Personally, I'd say that nothing we could ever do could possibly affect the kind of deity postulated by the Biblical Scriptures,

It is true that nothing could affect God, but that is not the issue. The issue is how both God and sin affect us. You have the wrong perspective. Since God made us in His own image, He expects us to have complete integrity and a moral code that is in line with His standards.

LEAST of all the petty absurdities listed in the Old Testament. Honestly, what kind of deity would obsess about the reproductive activities of a bunch of sapient mammals???

Although it may seem petty, it is not. God separated a nation and made them an oracle so that He could bring about the revelation necessary to fulfill His prophetic end. In order to separate this oracle from the rest of the world, He required them to behave and live differently, which is what the OT calls holiness--a separation for God purposes. In that sense, some of these seemingly absurdities served to separate His oracle so that all other nations would see their distinctness. That helped to keep His oracle from mixing with the other nations. The mixing would cause that nation to become corrupt; thus, unholy by God's standards.

Since you have the wrong perspective, you fail to see what we see and understand it the way we do. Even though you are way off in your perspective, you appear to have no clue about the Christian perspective between God and man to begin with. Rather than continuing offering us this flowery perspective of what you believe, how about trying to represent what we see and comment on that.
 
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peaceful soul

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Personally, I don't think that there's such a thing as irrelevance. Every grain of sand, every molecule, every atom, every sub-atomic particle, every force or wavelength is significant, simply by virtue of existing.

Still, that doesn't suggest that there's a supernatural being obsessing over and being offended by our eating or mating habits.

I agree with everything being significant because it exists since it was created with some kind of purpose; but that would not be the only reason something is significant. Take for example, humanity. We are also significant because we are accountable to God for what we do. There is judgment accompanied with accountability.

Why do you project you personal biases onto what you say as if that is what theist believe? We don't see God as obsessing or being offended. That is your take.
 
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peaceful soul

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I don't think he does. I don't think Jesus as conceptualized by Christianity loves me. I think he wants something from me and will hurt me if he doesn't get it. If you're powerful enough you get to call that love, I suppose.

Would the historical person of Jesus have loved me if I had lived in his time? I don't think he would have noticed me. I'm not prone to sharply amusing rhetoric in real life. I don't call out to famous persons from crowds. I think he would have walked on by, surrounded by his inner circle, on his way to something, and that would have been the end of it.

You comment (red) is ridiculous when seen in context of what is written in the Bible. How do you conclude this?
 
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SithDoughnut

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You comment (red) is ridiculous when seen in context of what is written in the Bible. How do you conclude this?

Jesus wants us to follow him and believe in him. The punishment for not doing so is eternal torment in hell. The context of the Bible potentially changes the intentions behind the situation, but the situation remains the same. Follow Jesus or burn in hell.
 
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razeontherock

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It's called "basic reading comprehension". :thumbsup:

Here, let me help you. I'll bold the critical parts:

James 1:26-27
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Here you're mocking someone who had the reading comprehension of a HS graduate in 2nd grade, while you simultaneously miss the whole point :doh:

James was speaking against religiosity, from personal experience, about things that could only be known via a personal relationship. Read it and weep.
 
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Zeena

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Actually, I question a person that claims to be a Pharisee, and he's such a Pharisee that he.... goes and works for the Sadducees so he can persecute people, which is completely against the religious beliefs of both groups.
So then, there is no reformation available to criminals of today?

With this train of thought, all criminals should just be murdered where they stand, seeing as they are incapable of change. :blush:

I am glad to be Canadian, where we do not put to death criminals, but offer chance for reform.

Conformation to societal standards is viewed as a good thing within a democracy [within reason, of course]. :wave:
 
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