Proposition 8 overturned in California

[Skaloop]

Originally Posted by Skaloop

I don't want a thread on it. I want to know what you think. The approximate age you give for the age of the universe will give me insight into your stance on same-sex marriage, and hence Prop 8. It's a simple question that you have so far refused to answer, derailing the thread far more than my asking the question in the first place. So just answer. It's a number. I'll even give you two approximate answers: is it closer to
(a) 6000 years, or
(b) 13,000,000,000 years?

Failure to provide your answer (either a or b) will be secret code for you to admit to being an active homosexual.
​

I'm a man of God. You already know where I stand.
​

Well, since you didn't provide an answer of either a or b, I certainly do now.
​

 

[Zaac]

Well, since you didn't provide an answer of either a or b, I certainly do now.
​

You should have known then where I stand. So save the little sentence games for the children.

 

[Sojourner1]

I didn't ask you about the English translation. I asked about the Hebrew. So what verse? I 'll translate it myself because you seem to be misleading folks.

Maybe one of the following verses is the right one?

Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Lev. 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Rom. 1:26,27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

[HELENz]

Might I suggest we all stop feeding the trolls.

An excellent suggestion. Goodbye, bigots.

I will admit it's a good suggestion. Although I don't really like to call people bigots... One just fights fire with fire when doing that.

That being said, I waste far too much of my time arguing with and reading what Zaac, onemorequestion and their ilk have to say. I could be doing much more productive things. So, after today, I will only be on CF once a week - on Thursdays. I'll catch everything then. I'm sure it'll be nothing new, just the same old circular arguments.

(I actually only came on today because I wanted to see the fallout from the historic Prop 8 overturn, which I believe was God's way of saying "Yay! Equality", but that's just my liberal UCC-ness showing through. )

But, I'll put in my two cents today... I feel like it.

So one gay experience redefines marriage forever? Guess again.

One gay experience? There are quite a few gays out there.

OK, back to the battle. Why is it that all atheist freethinkers are all exactly alike? On everything!!

Not all atheists are alike (as I'm sure one of the lovely atheists on this forum responded back to you), just like not all Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Pagans, Bah'ais and other religion-ists are alike. We are all different. We are all created by God to be different. It would be quite boring if everyone was the same.

It has outlawed them. That's oppression. No longer can Christians ever speak out in public and that includes schools.

You are speaking out on here, and y'all speak out plenty in schools and the public. You just want to think that you're being persecuted when really you're not. Far from it. You have the right to speak your opinions. So do those of us who disagree. That is called freedom, my friend.


And, by the way, once and for all, Gays are not recruiting. Sexual orientation is most likely something people are born with, if you would pay attention to science at all. The "recruiting" that gays do when speaking to LGBTQ youth is an effort to help them to accept themselves as they are and live productive lives. Rather than end up wasting thousands of dollars trying to become something they're not - or worse, committing suicide because they think that being dead is worse than who they are.

Anyone have additional thoughts on what I just said?

 

[pgp_protector]

Reading this thread I think that if California was to fall into the ocean due to an earthquake, there would be quite a few cheering & clapping saying you got what you deserved.

 

[Zaac]

Maybe one of the following verses is the right one?

Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Lev. 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Rom. 1:26,27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Thanks Sojourner. Now in order for either one of the Levitical verses to be saying what Jase says they say, one would have to believe that the way that a man lies with a woman is to rape her.

I wonder how many word studies and 99th usages of the word he had to go to in order to make those verses say forcing himself upon? SMH.

 

[Jase]

Reading this thread I think that if California was to fall into the ocean due to an earthquake, there would be quite a few cheering & clapping saying you got what you deserved.

Of course that's just a myth, California will never fall off. LA will eventually sit next to San Francisco in about 30 million years, but that's about it.

 

[Zaac]

Reading this thread I think that if California was to fall into the ocean due to an earthquake, there would be quite a few cheering & clapping saying you got what you deserved.

There would be well deserved tears. Noone delights in seeing tragedy or in seeing others dying and going to hell. But God's forbearance with this country and its constant turning up of its nose toward Him is no doubt wearing thin.

 

[Jase]

Thanks Sojourner. Now in order for either one of the Levitical verses to be saying what Jase says they say, one would have to believe that the way that a man lies with a woman is to rape her.

I wonder how many word studies and 99th usages of the word he had to go to in order to make those verses say forcing himself upon? SMH.

Raping women was certainly allowed back then, however, it's the Hebrew word that is used to denote "to lie" that's the issue. It's not the word that refers to consentual carnal relations.

 

[lemmings]

Of course that's just a myth, California will never fall off. LA will eventually sit next to San Francisco in about 30 million years, but that's about it.

As the official representative of the California East of the San Andreas Fault, our official position is that what California West of the San Andreas Fault does is none of our business and the other members of the North American Plate should focus on their own problems.

Wait, this was a discussion on Plate Tectonics? I thought we where still talking about homosexuality.

 

[selfinflikted]

ISo, after today, I will only be on CF once a week - on Thursdays. I'll catch everything then. I'm sure it'll be nothing new, just the same old circular arguments.

Noe

 

[Sojourner1]

Raping women was certainly allowed back then, however, it's the Hebrew word that is used to denote "to lie" that's the issue. It's not the word that refers to consentual carnal relations.

Actually the words "lie" or "lieth" the Leviticus verses I quoted are as follows:

The definition of the word lie or "shakab" in hebrew is to lie down as in (Qal) to lie (of sexual relations), or (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)

The definition of the word lieth or "mishkab" in hebrew is a lying down, couch, bier, act of lying or lying down (for sexual contact)

None of the definitions of these two hebrew words includes anything about rape or about it not being consensual. These definitions are from Strong's.

 

[Gishin]

Once again I'm glad I don't live in a country ruled by the Bible.

 

[Zaac]

Actually the words "lie" or "lieth" the Leviticus verses I quoted are as follows:

The definition of the word lie or "shakab" in hebrew is to lie down as in (Qal) to lie (of sexual relations), or (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)

The definition of the word lieth or "mishkab" in hebrew is a lying down, couch, bier, act of lying or lying down (for sexual contact)

None of the definitions of these two hebrew words includes anything about rape or about it not being consensual. These definitions are from Strong's.

You're up Jase.

 

[Jase]

Actually the words "lie" or "lieth" the Leviticus verses I quoted are as follows:

The definition of the word lie or "shakab" in hebrew is to lie down as in (Qal) to lie (of sexual relations), or (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)

The definition of the word lieth or "mishkab" in hebrew is a lying down, couch, bier, act of lying or lying down (for sexual contact)

None of the definitions of these two hebrew words includes anything about rape or about it not being consensual. These definitions are from Strong's.

Shakab is used 52 times to refer to sexual relations in the Bible. It is always used to denote a case of forced/deceitful sexual relations. Mishkab, in that verse, is best translated as "beds", as that is how the original Hebrew would read.

So literally, it means "A man shall not force himself upon another man, in beds of a woman, it is ritually impure."

In other words, this is a patriarchal society we're talking about, where men were dominate and women inferior. It was shameful for a man to ever take on the role of a woman. This practice was common in pagan sex rituals, where one man, would force another man to play the "bottom" or non-dominate role in a sexual relationship - thus putting the "bottom" man into the "beds of a woman".

That was seen as ritually impure in ancient times.

The fact that Hebrew uses different words to denote different forms of "lying" is evidence that the literal English translation is not accurate.

 

[Dogstar]

What you know is that's what you THINK they would be doing.

The American Taliban

Admittedly, the individual quotes are not cited, but most of them are easily verified and placed in the proper context through a quick search.

But there you go. Easily unchristian statements showing a complete lack of charity towards minority groups, including homosexuals. And not just from the overzealous "fringe" speakers, but from every public and political level.

A personal favorite would be Rep. Dornan's pithy little bon mot, "Don't use the word 'gay' unless it's an acronym for 'Got Aids Yet?'" I'm sure he'd be crying his heart out if the gays and lesbians of California were to fall into the ocean.

 

[Zaac]

The American Taliban

Admittedly, the individual quotes are not cited, but most of them are easily verified and placed in the proper context through a quick search.

But there you go. Easily unchristian statements showing a complete lack of charity towards minority groups, including homosexuals. And not just from the overzealous "fringe" speakers, but from every public and political level.

A personal favorite would be Rep. Dornan's pithy little bon mot, "Don't use the word 'gay' unless it's an acronym for 'Got Aids Yet?'" I'm sure he'd be crying his heart out if the gays and lesbians of California were to fall into the ocean.

I can dig up quotes off this board of atheist/agnostics or what have you doing the same thing against conservatives.

So what's the point? We know that there extreme folks in both camps. But the conservatives in the Body of Christ as a whole ain't trying to get a bunch of folks eradicated.

 

[Jase]

The American Taliban

Admittedly, the individual quotes are not cited, but most of them are easily verified and placed in the proper context through a quick search.

But there you go. Easily unchristian statements showing a complete lack of charity towards minority groups, including homosexuals. And not just from the overzealous "fringe" speakers, but from every public and political level.

A personal favorite would be Rep. Dornan's pithy little bon mot, "Don't use the word 'gay' unless it's an acronym for 'Got Aids Yet?'" I'm sure he'd be crying his heart out if the gays and lesbians of California were to fall into the ocean.

Wow, reading some of those quotes makes me nauseous. How can those people actually think they are behaving like Christ?

 

[Dogstar]

I can dig up quotes off this board of atheist/agnostics or what have you doing the same thing against conservatives.

Except I never denied that there are atheists and agnostics like that. You implied that Jase was wrong when he said that right wing leaders would be praising God for his righteous judgement and extermination of the gays.

So what's the point?

Stick around. It gets better.

We know that there extreme folks in both camps. But the conservatives in the Body of Christ as a whole ain't trying to get a bunch of folks eradicated.

Wasn't talking about the extremists. Bush, Bush II, et al, would hardly qualify as extremists. Nor were we talking about conservatives as a whole. We were discussing right-wing leaders, as per:

We know right wing leaders would be praising God for his righteous judgement and extermination of the gays.

 

[Zaac]

No, the majority of Christians just seem to want to pretend they're right. I've even had Christians quote the Revelations verse where the souls in Heaven will watch the souls burn in Hell joyously.

Then shame on them.

I've already told you, I'm a Jew who also happens to believe in Yeshua 'haMesiach. I do not lump myself in with conservative Christianity, because I hate what it stands for.

Apparently, based upon conversations with you, you hate what you THINK it stands for because it's at odds with what you stand for.

Funny, I seem to recall just a few months ago, a very prominate Christian leader cheering at the Earthquake in Haiti as God's judgement for their ancestors making a pact with the devil.

Then you recall incorrectly. He was not cheering. Can you prove that it was NOT God's judgment against the country?

Or how about the Christian leader asking for the assassination of another country's leader?

A I said to the other poster, I can find scathing remarks from some of yall on this board too. Does that mean that every agnostic/atheist/liberal feels the same way? nope

Don't even pretend that conservative Christians don't behave that way, because we see it all the time.

So under what category should we place your abhorrent behavior?