Jesus Loves You

[razeontherock]

If you were using the same one, then my point definitely stands. Many good people in the world do not have the faith as defined in the Bible, as they do not have faith in Christ.

The subject was Faith that can be seen. We're WAY off track here, but not going in circles (yet)

Different people grow at different rates, but G-d definitely wants people with visible Faith. Out of that subset, clearly not all are Christian. My question remains unaddressed: across whatever barriers people set up, what distinctions between Faith do you see? Forget religious practice, just deal with visible Faith and address that point.

 

[Eudaimonist]

No it doesn't, and your example here PROVES it. If the best you can dig up is something none of us have any say over anyway, and nothing that involves daily life - -

it's irrelevant.

It wasn't irrelevant to them. For them, it had great importance.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Zeena]

It wasn't irrelevant to them. For them, it had great importance.

eudaimonia,
Mark

Import merely for the sake importance. Not relevant to daily living.

Ecc 3:20-22
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Tell me, you who are a professed aetheist, is it of importance that you will die? Or, rather, do you set up your last will and testament merely for the sake of the living?

Same difference

Ecc 9:4-6
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

 

[Zeena]

Thanks. I just wanted to make sure that you and I were thinking about the same definition of the faith.

Then you agree that this is the subject in discussion?

James 1:22-25
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

No it doesn't, and your example here PROVES it. If the best you can dig up is something none of us have any say over anyway, and nothing that involves daily life - -

it's irrelevant.

Other doctrines or points of dogma hardly have more of an impact on daily life, and yet you'd claim that people who did not share your particular interpretation somehow betray that they weren't "true" Christians to begin with.

If "by their fruits shall you know them" is the sole measuring stick - then I know plenty of Non-Christians who'd qualify as "Christians" solely on account of being decent, charitable persons who gladly devote time and effort to the well-being of their fellow human beings, and plenty of Christians who do not.

 

[SithDoughnut]

The subject was Faith that can be seen. We're WAY off track here, but not going in circles (yet)

Different people grow at different rates, but G-d definitely wants people with visible Faith. Out of that subset, clearly not all are Christian. My question remains unaddressed: across whatever barriers people set up, what distinctions between Faith do you see? Forget religious practice, just deal with visible Faith and address that point.

Just tell me what answer you are waiting for, as you evidently already have one. We've been going in circles for the past few posts already, because you seem to ignore my requests for your definition of Faith. Before this discussion can go any further I'm going to need an answer. Discussion can only work if it goes in both directions.

Religious practice = Faith within this context until you give me another one to work with. Faith is often not seperate to your religion, faith is religion. That's the only answer I am able to give you until you give me whatever definition of faith you are working with.

Faith defined by the Bible requires belief in Jesus Christ. Many people do not have that belief and they have their own faiths. That's one massive distinction right there. You need to remember that we're not just talking about Christians here.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Then you agree that this is the subject in discussion?

James 1:22-25
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The initial subject was different faiths, i.e. different beliefs. However, I'm not entirely sure what the subject is now.

Currently the subject appears to be people being convinced that everyone thinks like them, and that whenever something comes up that they don't think is important, that it is irrelevant. Hell is not irrelevant. Religious practices are not irrelevant. Nothing is irrelevant, because we are talking about 6 billion people with 6 billion different beliefs. Chances are that whatever you name, is it very relevant to at least one of them.

The fact that you think that the definition of hell is irrelevant while other people do not shows that faith has many distinctions and definitions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Other doctrines or points of dogma hardly have more of an impact on daily life, and yet you'd claim that people who did not share your particular interpretation somehow betray that they weren't "true" Christians to begin with.

If "by their fruits shall you know them" is the sole measuring stick - then I know plenty of Non-Christians who'd qualify as "Christians" solely on account of being decent, charitable persons who gladly devote time and effort to the well-being of their fellow human beings, and plenty of Christians who do not.

So do I Jane

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".
Mohandas Gandhi


Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi - Wikiquote

 

[Zeena]

Other doctrines or points of dogma hardly have more of an impact on daily life, and yet you'd claim that people who did not share your particular interpretation somehow betray that they weren't "true" Christians to begin with.

If "by their fruits shall you know them" is the sole measuring stick - then I know plenty of Non-Christians who'd qualify as "Christians" solely on account of being decent, charitable persons who gladly devote time and effort to the well-being of their fellow human beings, and plenty of Christians who do not.

In this it seems you are referring to faith which is God given to every man, woman and child.

The faith of Christians walking after the Spirit is something altogether different, evolved you might say.. In that it is no longer we who live, but Christ Who Lives in and through us, to the Glory of God.

Now, to quote, 'by your fruits you will know them', I ask, what is fruit defined as, if not love?

You see that? No doctine can epitomize love, nor any theology.

One may say, I have faith, but Saint James says, show me your faith, and I'll show you my faith wrought by works.

Gal 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[Zeena]

The initial subject was different faiths, i.e. different beliefs. However, I'm not entirely sure what the subject is now.

Currently the subject appears to be people being convinced that everyone thinks like them, and that whenever something comes up that they don't think is important, that it is irrelevant. Hell is not irrelevant. Religious practices are not irrelevant. Nothing is irrelevant, because we are talking about 6 billion people with 6 billion different beliefs. Chances are that whatever you name, is it very relevant to at least one of them.

The fact that you think that the definition of hell is irrelevant while other people do not shows that faith has many distinctions and definitions.

The definition of hell is irrelevant as pertains to our witness;

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

And also;

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

And again;

2 Cor 5:13-15
For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Therefore, we witness to the world the LOVE of Christ. We witness what Jesus has done for all mankind. This is the Gospel message.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*
The definition of hell is irrelevant as pertains to our witness;

The religion of Judaism also feels that way

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

Matthew 23:2 saying "upon the Seat of Moses are seated the Scribes and the Pharisees
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>"

Ezekiel 39:12 And house of Israel bury them so that to purify/cleanse the Land seven months.
And all of people of the Land bury them..........

 

[SithDoughnut]

The definition of hell is irrelevant as pertains to our witness;

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

And also;

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

And again;

2 Cor 5:13-15
For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Therefore, we witness to the world the LOVE of Christ. We witness what Jesus has done for all mankind. This is the Gospel message.

Indeed.

Just so you know, I'm not disagreeing that the Bible (or at least the NT) focuses on the carrot much more than the stick, all I was doing was saying that other people have different views on not just the Bible but religion in general. These are a few examples of the distinctions between faiths that I was talking about at one point. I have no idea how the conversation ended up here... I'm still talking about different faiths, and I don't really know what anyone else is going on about now.

 

[Glass*Soul]

The definition of hell is irrelevant as pertains to our witness;

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

And also;

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

And again;

2 Cor 5:13-15
For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Therefore, we witness to the world the LOVE of Christ. We witness what Jesus has done for all mankind. This is the Gospel message.

The frustration is that in the next discussion, or even later in this one, someone claiming the exact same religion may follow me around threatening me with hell for post after post as if it does matter. There are those who insist that Jesus has not done what he has done for all of mankind but only for an elect few. There are those who define love in terms of my persecution.

I am interested in what you believe and find it reasonably attractive, but it gets harder and harder for me to connect the word Christian to anything personally positive. Does Christ love me? The consensus feels to me as if the answer is no. The consensus feels to me as if he would rather I was dead. Not just dead. Annihilated.

What a wonderful world it would be...

 

[Zeena]

Indeed.

Just so you know, I'm not disagreeing that the Bible (or at least the NT) focuses on the carrot much more than the stick, all I was doing was saying that other people have different views on not just the Bible but religion in general. These are a few examples of the distinctions between faiths that I was talking about at one point. I have no idea how the conversation ended up here... I'm still talking about different faiths, and I don't really know what anyone else is going on about now.

Understood, but rather than refer to these doctrines and theology and differring faiths, why not, rather, refer to them as they really are, differrent beliefs?

You understand there is a difference between the two, now?

Belief, Faith, and Knowing

 

[SithDoughnut]

Understood, but rather than refer to these doctrines and theology and differring faiths, why not, rather, refer to them as they really are, differrent beliefs?

You understand there is a difference between the two, now?

Belief, Faith, and Knowing

There isn't that much of a difference - a faith is a type of belief. Faith is belief in the absence of proof, but it is still a belief. Faith isn't also necessarily true because we want it to be, sometimes we are just convinced of it. I'm sure that small children don't want there to be a monster under the bed, but that doesn't stop them having faith in their existence.

However, the plural noun 'faiths' implies religion. I can't think of any other occasion when the plural form would be used. You don't 'have faiths', for example.

 

[Zeena]

The frustration is that in the next discussion, or even later in this one, someone claiming the exact same religion may follow me around threatening me with hell for post after post as if it does matter. There are those who insist that Jesus has not done what he has done for all of mankind but only for an elect few. There are those who define love in terms of my persecution.

They have believed those things, and thus they act on them.
But it is only their perception of reality that has changed, not the reality itself.

I am interested in what you believe and find it reasonably attractive, but it gets harder and harder for me to connect the word Christian to anything personally positive.

Do you also beleive that what they have perceived to be reality to be the truth?

What does you God tell you in your heart?
Will you believe His Witness over any others?
Surely, you know Him to be True?

Look at your own life, not the lives of others.
For to Him, we each, as uniquely created individuals live or die.
We live or die to no man, only to God, the Creator of us all.
He's been there, reaching out to you at every step in your journey!

Does Christ love me? The consensus feels to me as if the answer is no.

Don't listen to the consensous, listen to God, Who alone is the Truth!

He DIED for you, so that to Him you CAN LIVE!
Don't let this life be solely to yourself, share it with your Creator, He WANTS to be a part of your life, in fact, the WHOLE thing, he Loves you THAT much!

The consensus feels to me as if he would rather I was dead. Not just dead. Annihilated.

What a wonderful world it would be...

Please don't think that way!

If you were not here, I would not have met you, neither would any of us be blessed in coming to know you!

I hope you will believe you are created in LOVE!

He can share with you the most intimate love you have or will ever know!

LIVE!

 

[Zeena]

There isn't that much of a difference - a faith is a type of belief. Faith is belief in the absence of proof, but it is still a belief. Faith isn't also necessarily true because we want it to be, sometimes we are just convinced of it. I'm sure that small children don't want there to be a monster under the bed, but that doesn't stop them having faith in their existence.

However, the plural noun 'faiths' implies religion. I can't think of any other occasion when the plural form would be used. You don't 'have faiths', for example.

So then, 'religion' it is.

I would agree that there are many 'religions' built upon that one faith.

1 Cor 3:10-11
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[razeontherock]

Faith defined by the Bible requires belief in Jesus Christ.

The Faith that's important in the Bible is that of Abraham. You're saying he believed in Jesus Christ?

The point you keep making is that you never learned any distinction between Faith and religious practice. That would perfectly explain why you found Christianity to be empty. I was a little older than you before I first learned better, and I also had a LOT of things propelling me to do so.

I still can't pinpoint what you overlooked.

 

[razeontherock]

Does Christ love me? The consensus feels to me as if the answer is no.

Ya know, I was not only saved, but radically saved for over a decade before I could get any concept that Jesus loves me. It still blows my mind - now more than ever!

Zeena's said some powerful stuff here, hopefully you can relate?

 

[b&wpac4]

The Faith that's important in the Bible is that of Abraham. You're saying he believed in Jesus Christ?

Abraham trusted God. That's the faith of Abraham.

He questioned God at times, even laughed when God suggested Sarah would have a child, but he trusted God.