Jesus Loves You

[Zeena]

Jesus Loves You

LOVE IT!

Nice, broad quote of the Spirit

He Loves everybody SO MUCH, that He has forgiven us ALL of our sins;

Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

The entire idea of Hell is what first broke my faith in Christianity.

I notice this sentiment a LOT in this thread!

I've seen all the proofs and how it isn't God that does it, it is man, or it is our punishment for sinning or whatever else people want to say, at the end of the day it is eternal punishment for finite crimes, which is infinitely unjust.

What a person does is indicative of WHO they are.. Even Jesus said; "out of the abundance of the mouth, the heart speaks" [Luke 6:45]. Ergo, it's WHO we are, in our hearts, that determine whether or not we will sin to begin with. Wherefore is it said;

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin

Therefore, seeing as you are forgiven your sins, yet are in need of the Eternal Life of Christ with which to Live Eternally;

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Seeing, also, that you have set your face like flint against the Lord are you therefore worshipping death, even as you are doing in saying you have judged our Creator as unworthy to Reign for His 'unRighteous Judgement'.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him*, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

*him not being God, but the beast

Seeing as these things are so, you will be given over to worship the host of heavens, in that you are not recieving thew Eternal Life of Christ for your judgements against Him.

If the God I worship would do this, I would stop worshiping. How could I be happy in the afterlife knowing there were others suffering eternal torment for the lack of a simple belief?

It is not Him, it is YOU who are being unbelieving of the Eternal Life Jesus died to give you.. Through the hardness of your heart.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Has anybody ever noted the immense hubris of assuming that the deeds of a couple of bipedal mammals at the outer fringes of an unremarkable, little galaxy are of utmost, cosmic importance to the satisfaction of an omniscient uberbeing?

When was the last time you were offended by a microbe stepping out of line and mating with the wrong microorganism?
"Sin" is just some kind of reverse narcissism, based on the crazy assumption that it's really all about us.

Personally, I'd say that nothing we could ever do could possibly affect the kind of deity postulated by the Biblical Scriptures, LEAST of all the petty absurdities listed in the Old Testament. Honestly, what kind of deity would obsess about the reproductive activities of a bunch of sapient mammals???

 

[Wicked Willow]

Looking through the history of theism, it seems to me that people's conception of deity has progressed from "indifferent, awe-inspiring power that needs to be placated if you don't want to end up as collateral" towards "caring, human-like entity concerned about our well-being".
Interestingly enough, this change of pace coincided with mankind's increasing control over Nature. With each daunting natural phenomenon that was reined in and put to good use, God/the gods became less inhuman, less scary, less indifferent. There were times when thunderstorms were conceived of as supernatural occurrences, having people pray or bring sacrifices to be spared the penalty of divine wrath. Today, we put a lightning conductor on our roof, and that's that.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Personally, I don't think that there's such a thing as irrelevance. Every grain of sand, every molecule, every atom, every sub-atomic particle, every force or wavelength is significant, simply by virtue of existing.

Still, that doesn't suggest that there's a supernatural being obsessing over and being offended by our eating or mating habits.

 

[Zeena]

Looking through the history of theism, it seems to me that people's conception of deity has progressed from "indifferent, awe-inspiring power that needs to be placated if you don't want to end up as collateral" towards "caring, human-like entity concerned about our well-being".
Interestingly enough, this change of pace coincided with mankind's increasing control over Nature. With each daunting natural phenomenon that was reined in and put to good use, God/the gods became less inhuman, less scary, less indifferent. There were times when thunderstorms were conceived of as supernatural occurrences, having people pray or bring sacrifices to be spared the penalty of divine wrath. Today, we put a lightning conductor on our roof, and that's that.

Actually, the timing more or less corresponded with the appearance of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Zeena]

Personally, I don't think that there's such a thing as irrelevance. Every grain of sand, every molecule, every atom, every sub-atomic particle, every force or wavelength is significant, simply by virtue of existing.

Still, that doesn't suggest that there's a supernatural being obsessing over and being offended by our eating or mating habits.

Nope, but He does care about YOU!

 

[Wicked Willow]

Actually, the timing more or less corresponded with the appearance of the Lord Jesus.

Not quite. For starters, you can trace the transition from indifferent-power-to-be-placated to caring-human-like-entity a lot sooner than that, and not just in the context of the Abrahamaic religions.
Likewise, it wasn't an altogether linear process: God as described by some of the 16th century Reformers and their spiritual descendants makes the terrifying deities of the bronze age look like silly cardboard villains by comparison. John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, A.W. Pink... or just look at Duckybill's posts in this very thread. That's not a benevolent deity he describes there.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I don't think he does. I don't think Jesus as conceptualized by Christianity loves me. I think he wants something from me and will hurt me if he doesn't get it. If you're powerful enough you get to call that love, I suppose.

Would the historical person of Jesus have loved me if I had lived in his time? I don't think he would have noticed me. I'm not prone to sharply amusing rhetoric in real life. I don't call out to famous persons from crowds. I think he would have walked on by, surrounded by his inner circle, on his way to something, and that would have been the end of it.

 

[Zeena]

Not quite. For starters, you can trace the transition from indifferent-power-to-be-placated to caring-human-like-entity a lot sooner than that, and not just in the context of the Abrahamaic religions.

The Lord God promised a time of peace and prosperity through Christ;

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 2:4
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isaiah 11:9
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Luke 2:14
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Eph 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Likewise, it wasn't an altogether linear process: God as described by some of the 16th century Reformers and their spiritual descendants makes the terrifying deities of the bronze age look like silly cardboard villains by comparison. John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, A.W. Pink... or just look at Duckybill's posts in this very thread. That's not a benevolent deity he describes there.

Who's say they were or are right in their presumptions?

Jude 1:10
But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't think he does. I don't think Jesus as conceptualized by Christianity loves me. I think he wants something from me and will hurt me if he doesn't get it. If you're powerful enough you get to call that love, I suppose.

Would the historical person of Jesus have loved me if I had lived in his time? I don't think he would have noticed me. I'm not prone to sharply amusing rhetoric in real life. I don't call out to famous persons from crowds. I think he would have walked on by, surrounded by his inner circle, on his way to something, and that would have been the end of it.

Hello
Nice post......I still have the link to a thread you started sometime back concerning "pearls and swine".
It was one of the most thought provoking threads I have read on CF and I would like to post it here for those interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t7256012-15/#post47689189
Skeptics, Cynics, and Pearls (Oh My!)

*snip*

My dear Christian theologians:

I’ve been puzzled for quite some time by Matthew 7:6. Let me quote it here:

Do not give dogs what is sacred, do not show your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
​

This verse is often quoted as a means of insulting skeptics, of justifying the insulting of skeptics and of justifying the breaking off of all dialogue and relationship with skeptics. Yet this verse is positioned, in Matthew 7, between the brilliant analogy of the log and the splinter, meant to teach the danger of projecting our own faults onto others, and a tender passage extolling the Father’s willingness to provide as generously as any parent. Why, I’ve asked myself over and over, would Jesus pause from these two manifestly positive teachings to hastily excuse the casting of insults and the breaking off of relationships?

 

[Zeena]

I don't think he does. I don't think Jesus as conceptualized by Christianity loves me.

Who's to say that those proponents of 'Christianity' really were of God?

1 John 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I think he wants something from me and will hurt me if he doesn't get it.

You have no thing that God wants or needs, all He wants is YOU!

If you're powerful enough you get to call that love, I suppose.

Romans 13:8-10
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Would the historical person of Jesus have loved me if I had lived in his time?

Romans 5:6-10
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

I don't think he would have noticed me. I'm not prone to sharply amusing rhetoric in real life. I don't call out to famous persons from crowds. I think he would have walked on by, surrounded by his inner circle, on his way to something, and that would have been the end of it.

Mark 10:42-52
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging. And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me. And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee. And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus. And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

 

[dewaddict84]

if I had lived in his time? I don't think he would have noticed me.

I dunno glass soul, there are people in this world today that simply love everybody, and more then just those with Williams Syndrome. Some people quite honestly have a disposition where life is wonderful, everyone is good, and they're peppy all the time. It's actually a little annoying before I've had my coffee. So an all-longing Jesus-the-dude is within the realm of possibility.

Unless you're a banker. Then he'd take a whip to you.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Hello
Nice post......I still have the link to a thread you started sometime back concerning "pearls and swine".
It was one of the most thought provoking threads I have read on CF and I would like to post it here for those interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t7256012-15/#post47689189
Skeptics, Cynics, and Pearls (Oh My!)

*snip*

My dear Christian theologians:

I’ve been puzzled for quite some time by Matthew 7:6. Let me quote it here:

Do not give dogs what is sacred, do not show your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
​

This verse is often quoted as a means of insulting skeptics, of justifying the insulting of skeptics and of justifying the breaking off of all dialogue and relationship with skeptics. Yet this verse is positioned, in Matthew 7, between the brilliant analogy of the log and the splinter, meant to teach the danger of projecting our own faults onto others, and a tender passage extolling the Father’s willingness to provide as generously as any parent. Why, I’ve asked myself over and over, would Jesus pause from these two manifestly positive teachings to hastily excuse the casting of insults and the breaking off of relationships?

Thank you for quoting my old post. I can't post in the forum where that topic resides any longer. I just wanted to mention that in case you are wondering why I haven't responded to any of your comments in a very long while.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Who's to say that those proponents of 'Christianity' really were of God?

1 John 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I have read these passages. The I John passage seems, in context, to be about believers loving one another. And a very specific set of believers at that, who are orthodox according to the doctrine of the author of the epistle. In the I John passage the language of love is actually interrupted at the beginning of chapter 4 in order to condemn the proponents of a sort of proto-Docetism. Then, that piece of business aside, the love fest carries on.

Jesus loves you if you are the right sort of person who believes the right sorts of things. Otherwise, no term is too harsh. No punishment too severe. Just turn back a couple of pages and read II Peter or forward a couple of pages and read Jude.

You have no thing that God wants or needs, all He wants is YOU!

I don't think I am allowed to respond to this as it would touch on a topic OT to this forum. I am reasonably convinced that Jesus lived. We will have to confine ourselves to discussing whether or not he loves me.

There are indeed a number of passages in the New Testament that seem hopeful on the subject of love, but there are others that are...well...a bit severe on that count. If one looks at the epistles in chronological order one finds a quick decline over time into name calling, condemnation and internecine quarrels, until love once defined as doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is redefined in I John 5 as obedience to orthodoxy. To whom one extends hospitality (II John) and to whom one does not extend hospitality (III John) becomes a minefield that can result in those who misjudge the rules being unchurched.

What I am responding to is the conception of Jesus I encounter in my day-to-day life--a conception that has grown out of this tradition of redefining love as attention to orthodoxy. That Jesus does not love me.

I am unclean.

 

[razeontherock]

Now here's some great and relevant conversation!

I don't think Jesus as conceptualized by Christianity loves me. I think he wants something from me and will hurt me if he doesn't get it.

What I am responding to is the conception of Jesus I encounter in my day-to-day life--a conception that has grown out of this tradition of redefining love as attention to orthodoxy. That Jesus does not love me.

I am unclean.

Sister, we all are unclean by that standard!

And here's what the regulars didn't get when I posted it earlier, and since I'm not all slick w/ links like LLOJ I'll re-post it here:

my first Pastor had a vision, where he was responsible for the eternal souls of all those G-d had sent him to preach the Gospel to but didn't.

It is the same when we misrepresent Jesus, as GS expresses here. And I'm sure I have mea culpas in me, too ...

LLOJ, will you start a thread here exploring the question where you quoted GS?

 

[Zeena]

I have read these passages.

Then, why aren't you believing and confessing that God Loves you?

The I John passage seems, in context, to be about believers loving one another.

1 John refers to God Loving all the world;

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Note that Saint John, in the above verse of Scripture, clearly indicates Christ's propitiation for the sins of the whole world.. now watch;

1 John 4:10-11
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Saint John now reminds us that BECAUSE God Loved us, He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.. The sins of the WHOLE WORLD!
Saint John then goes on to testify that we ought to LOVE those for whom Christ died, which is the WHOLE world!

Also, we are reminded;

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Therefore, we have here two consecutive witness's testifying that Jesus the Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and that we ought to LOVE those He died for. They being believers is NOT a question of God's Love, but if they be paid for by the Blood of Christ, then they are LOVED! And that is EVERYONE of the world!

And a very specific set of believers at that, who are orthodox according to the doctrine of the author of the epistle. In the I John passage the language of love is actually interrupted at the beginning of chapter 4 in order to condemn the proponents of a sort of proto-Docetism. Then, that piece of business aside, the love fest carries on.

If you are of the world, then you, too, are Loved by God.

Only, you cannot walk in His Love without first receiving it by faith..

Jesus loves you if you are the right sort of person

YOU are uniquely created by God, FOR God.
You ARE the 'right sort of person' in being a person created by God, for His Glory!

who believes the right sorts of things.

I hope the Scriptural referrences I've taken the time to compile for you will be sufficient for you to believe that God has sent His Son for you, proving His Love for you!
If not, here I am!

Otherwise, no term is too harsh. No punishment too severe. Just turn back a couple of pages and read II Peter or forward a couple of pages and read Jude.

I don't think I am allowed to respond to this as it would touch on a topic OT to this forum. I am reasonably convinced that Jesus lived. We will have to confine ourselves to discussing whether or not he loves me.

Then that we shall do!

There are indeed a number of passages in the New Testament that seem hopeful on the subject of love, but there are others that are...well...a bit severe on that count. If one looks at the epistles in chronological order one finds a quick decline over time into name calling, condemnation and internecine quarrels, until love once defined as doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is redefined in I John 5 as obedience to orthodoxy.

I do not cuncurr that it was redefined, but rather expounded upon in light of certain errors.

To whom one extends hospitality (II John) and to whom one does not extend hospitality (III John) becomes a minefield that can result in those who misjudge the rules being unchurched.

A quick word search of the word hospitality reveals a host of witness's from various disciples.. Peter, Paul and John.

Hospitality

If you would like to go over the passages together, I'd be more than pleased to join with you.

What I am responding to is the conception of Jesus I encounter in my day-to-day life--a conception that has grown out of this tradition of redefining love as attention to orthodoxy. That Jesus does not love me.

Let's not look to men to define Salvation, let us seek the face of our God!

John 14:8-11
Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

I am unclean.

You are forgiven.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Then, why aren't you believing and confessing that God Loves you?

I am afraid it does not necessarily follow.

1 John refers to God Loving all the world;

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Note that Saint John, in the above verse of Scripture, clearly indicates Christ's propitiation for the sins of the whole world.. now watch;

1 John 4:10-11
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

Saint John now reminds us that BECAUSE God Loved us, He sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.. The sins of the WHOLE WORLD!
Saint John then goes on to testify that we ought to LOVE those for whom Christ died, which is the WHOLE world!

Also, we are reminded;

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Therefore, we have here two consecutive witness's testifying that Jesus the Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and that we ought to LOVE those He died for. They being believers is NOT a question of God's Love, but if they be paid for by the Blood of Christ, then they are LOVED! And that is EVERYONE of the world!

If you are of the world, then you, too, are Loved by God.

Only, you cannot walk in His Love without first receiving it by faith..

YOU are uniquely created by God, FOR God.
You ARE the 'right sort of person' in being a person created by God, for His Glory!

I hope the Scriptural referrences I've taken the time to compile for you will be sufficient for you to believe that God has sent His Son for you, proving His Love for you!
If not, here I am!

Then that we shall do!

I do not cuncurr that it was redefined, but rather expounded upon in light of certain errors.

A quick word search of the word hospitality reveals a host of witness's from various disciples.. Peter, Paul and John.

Hospitality

If you would like to go over the passages together, I'd be more than pleased to join with you.

Let's not look to men to define Salvation, let us seek the face of our God!

John 14:8-11
Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
You are forgiven.

Thank you for the scripture passages.

Salvation is as salvation does. It does not lie in orthodoxy. If those who are generous and respectful toward others were suddenly raptured from our midst, the Christian churches of the world would not have to change a single word of their creeds in order to become hells on earth.

Yes. I believe in Christ for the works' sake. There is no other measure that moves me. When the works are miserly and rejecting, I have no choice but to doubt and study further. For us skeptics, belief is always provisional.

Thank you for telling me that I am forgiven. Sometimes I tell people that as well. I lack whatever it takes for it to sound authoritative from my lips, but I believe I have as much right to say it as Christ did. He was stating a fact. Insofar as I can recognize that fact, I will state it as well. It puzzled people but that is OK.

You are forgiven.

 

[razeontherock]

*Ahem* I think I said something recently about GS not being "most NC's here?"

Very cool post!

 

[Glass*Soul]

*Ahem* I think I said something recently about GS not being "most NC's here?"

Very cool post!

You will be more and more pleased the more you get to know the NC regulars on CF. There are some outstanding people.

 

[scraparcs]

I am afraid it does not necessarily follow.



Thank you for the scripture passages.

Salvation is as salvation does. It does not lie in orthodoxy. If those who are generous and respectful toward others were suddenly raptured from our midst, the Christian churches of the world would not have to change a single word of their creeds in order to become hells on earth.

Yes. I believe in Christ for the works' sake. There is no other measure that moves me. When the works are miserly and rejecting, I have no choice but to doubt and study further. For us skeptics, belief is always provisional.

Thank you for telling me that I am forgiven. Sometimes I tell people that as well. I lack whatever it takes for it to sound authoritative from my lips, but I believe I have as much right to say it as Christ did. He was stating a fact. Insofar as I can recognize that fact, I will state it as well. It puzzled people but that is OK.

You are forgiven.

Would it be false teaching here to suggest that this makes me believe that orthopraxy may be a lot more important than orthodoxy?