Homosexuality

[OllieFranz]

So you believe that the KJV has errors?

I believe that the translators authorized by King James were probably, for the most, part pious men and honest scholars, who were as faithful to the original language as their understanding of it allowed. But 1) We are not promised that copies or translations of the Scriptures will be error free (though the words have been remarkably well preserved due to the extraordinary care taken in copying them, because they were God-breathed); 2) The scholars knew Classical Greek, but the Scriptures were written in Koine Greek, which had been lost, the New testament, and scraps of writings from the Church being the only surviving exemplars until the some 20th century discoveries in the deserts of Egypt, Palestine and Syria; 3)Languages and the cultures that breed them are often so different, that there is no easy way -- and occasionally no way at all -- to both translate all the nuances of meaning in the original and avoid picking up nuances that were never present in the original.

So, to answer your question, no, the AV is not inerrant. Nor is any other translation. That is why when I study the Bible, I use as many different translations as I can (including an interlinear original language/English Bible) and several study aids, rather than just relying just on the text of one English language translation.

 

[onemorequestion]

So, Jesus and Paul were disobedient to the command to 'be fruitful and multiply'? Seems like they were also disobedient to the one about leaving one's father and mother and becoming one flesh with their wives ...?

Did Elijah have a wife?

And is that mocking you are using towards our Lord and Paul? I would find that fascinating, you being a Christian and all.

Both of these texts are used CONSTANTLY by those who view (heterosexual) marriage as 'one's duty' to God. And, that's the reason that I brought it up.

Same gender marriage cannot find sanction in your typical sarcasm, any more than it can in mocking Jesus and Paul.

 

[onemorequestion]

I believe that the translators authorized by King James were probably, for the most, part pious men and honest scholars, who were as faithful to the original language as their understanding of it allowed. But 1) We are not promised that copies or translations of the Scriptures will be error free (though the words have been remarkably well preserved due to the extraordinary care taken in copying them, because they were God-breathed);

One would have to think of a weak and ineffective Holy Spirit to allow "the word" to be watered down to untruth wouldn't one?

And wasn't King James of the "King James Bible" supposedly a homosexual?

2) The scholars knew Classical Greek, but the Scriptures were written in Koine Greek, which had been lost, the New testament, and scraps of writings from the Church being the only surviving exemplars until the some 20th century discoveries in the deserts of Egypt, Palestine and Syria;

Which does not change the opposition to same gender sex acts by "The Saints" in any way.

3)Languages and the cultures that breed them are often so different, that there is no easy way -- and occasionally no way at all -- to both translate all the nuances of meaning in the original and avoid picking up nuances that were never present in the original.

The history of man has shown homosexuality was not embraced by the Christians.

So, to answer your question, no, the AV is not inerrant. Nor is any other translation. That is why when I study the Bible, I use as many different translations as I can (including an interlinear original language/English Bible) and several study aids, rather than just relying just on the text of one English language translation.

I also have just about every different version that's out there. Including one in Syrian and Cree Indian. Not a one sanction gay behavior for Christians. AND, as anyone with eyes to see with can notice, both the Orthodox and Roman catholic Church denounce gay marriage. As do the vast majority of Protestant Churches. Even, some that havev forced the gay issue into and onto the Denominations.

That's very consistent history Ollie.

 

[Peripatetic]

So you believe that the KJV has errors?

I like RC Sproul's answer to that question. He maintains that only the original manuscripts are without error, and we no longer have them. However, what we do have is close enough for it not to matter all that much.

The Holy Spirit can knit the message of scripture into our hearts even though we don't all have the same translation. My recent questions have been less about homosexuality and more a caution against conditional literalism. That is, pointing to one passage and being literal about one part, and consider context about another part.

A man lying with a man is wrong: literal.
He must be put to death: context (Jesus changed the rules)
A woman lying with a woman is wrong: inference only - purely interpretation

I'm still not arguing against homosexual acts being sinful. I'm just willing to admit that my belief that they are is based partly on literal, partly on context, and partly on inference (see above examples). Given those three variables, I am also willing to admit that my interpretation may not be 100% obvious. See what I am saying??

 

[onemorequestion]

I like RC Sproul's answer to that question. He maintains that only the original manuscripts are without error, and we no longer have them. However, what we do have is close enough for it not to matter all that much.

The Holy Spirit can knit the message of scripture into our hearts even though we don't all have the same translation. My recent questions have been less about homosexuality and more a caution against conditional literalism. That is, pointing to one passage and being literal about one part, and consider context about another part.

A man lying with a man is wrong: literal.
He must be put to death: context (Jesus changed the rules)
A woman lying with a woman is wrong: inference only - purely interpretation

I'm still not arguing against homosexual acts being sinful. I'm just willing to admit that my belief that they are is based partly on literal, partly on context, and partly on inference (see above examples). Given those three variables, I am also willing to admit that my interpretation may not be 100% obvious. See what I am saying??

I think it is safe to say that if context and history is applied to testing this issue of gay marriage, it is honest and truthful, that it (homosexual behavior) belongs in a secular and un-Christian worldliness.

Notice that it is the adherants to liberalism and progressive-ism, that employ mocking and taunting to try to sielnce any dissent of gay causes entering Christian beauty.

I will stand before Jesus with my positions in my hands, and I do not feel that gay culture being attempted to be defined as acceptable Christian life is anything but a flase teachings implemented by false teachers gathering around them people with itching ears wanting to hear what they want to hear.

I do not believe it is in Christian love that we that oppose homosexuality are labeled as hateful people, when ALL of scripture and ALL of Christian truth shows us to be the ones carrying on what Jesus and His Disciples and Apostles brought us. And, brought us with their very lives.

 

[OllieFranz]

One would have to think of a weak and ineffective Holy Spirit to allow "the word" to be watered down to untruth wouldn't one?

And wasn't King James of the "King James Bible" supposedly a homosexual?




Which does not change the opposition to same gender sex acts by "The Saints" in any way.




The history of man has shown homosexuality was not embraced by the Christians.

My post was based entirely on the question of the inerrancy of the AV, and has nothing to do with how I understand the "homosexuality" passages. And my understanding of those passages has nothing to do with the position I take on these boards, which comes mostly from Romans 14 and several passages chapters in Matthew, and which command the same tolerance of our brothers in Christ whether we believe what they are doing is a sin or not.

I also have just about every different version that's out there. Including one in Syrian and Cree Indian. Not a one sanction gay behavior for Christians. AND, as anyone with eyes to see with can notice, both the Orthodox and Roman catholic Church denounce gay marriage. As do the vast majority of Protestant Churches. Even, some that havev forced the gay issue into and onto the Denominations.

That's very consistent history Ollie.

Consistent from the Second century on, yes. It was way back then that Augustine of Hippo and Clement of Alexandria decided that all sex is evil, though they reluctantly allowed for sex for procreation between married couples. (I'm not sure about when "and only in the missionary position" was added.)

The Bible tells us that marriage is for partnership (companionship, help, etc.) [Genesis 2], for security [1 Timothy 5], and for sexual release [1 Corinthians 7], not just for procreation. If anything, though in that area, the emphasis is on child-rearing, not on child-bearing.

 

[Jase]

So you believe that the KJV has errors?

The KJV is just one of many translations over the years. And yes, we know for a fact that all Bibles contain errors, depending on what you define as an "error" (copy mistakes vs factual scientific and historical errors etc.)

 

[Jase]

One would have to think of a weak and ineffective Holy Spirit to allow "the word" to be watered down to untruth wouldn't one?

Well, if you want to argue an ineffective Holy Spirit, you could start with the fact that no 2 Christians on this planet agree on everything, and have had to resort to forming thousands of denominations to account for varying differences, and yet all of them claim guidance to the truth by the Holy Spirit.

The history of man has shown homosexuality was not embraced by the Christians.

Instead history shows us that Christianity embraced pagan tradition, genocide, witch burning, crusades, discrimination, anti-science and enlightenment. Homosexuality should be the least of Christianity's problems.

I also have just about every different version that's out there. Including one in Syrian and Cree Indian. Not a one sanction gay behavior for Christians. AND, as anyone with eyes to see with can notice, both the Orthodox and Roman catholic Church denounce gay marriage. As do the vast majority of Protestant Churches. Even, some that havev forced the gay issue into and onto the Denominations.

Yes, let's rely on the Catholic church for guidance, because it's not like pedophilia or greed or past scientific errors are clouding their judgement. Or Protestant Churches, who still like to lie to children and claim the world is only 6,000 years old, while "Saint-like" pastors are preaching prosperity from their multi-million dollar mansions, jets, and stadium churches.

More and more Jews, however, are admitting the need to renounce past interpretation regarding the Levitical passages on homosexuality, and many Reform Rabbis, and all Reconstructionist have embrace gays into the Jewish community. While I may disagree with most Jews on the Messiah, I will trust the wisdom of a reform Rabbi over a Southern Baptist any day of the week.

 

[Jase]

Notice that it is the adherants to liberalism and progressive-ism, that employ mocking and taunting to try to sielnce any dissent of gay causes entering Christian beauty.

You mean like they tried to silence dissent to slavery and racism when Christians were claiming it was an abomination for a black man and a white woman to marry?

I will stand before Jesus with my positions in my hands, and I do not feel that gay culture being attempted to be defined as acceptable Christian life is anything but a flase teachings implemented by false teachers gathering around them people with itching ears wanting to hear what they want to hear.

And Jesus will most assuredly ask you why you judged the LGBT children he created, condemned them to hell, and turned them away from him.

 

[onemorequestion]

Well, if you want to argue an ineffective Holy Spirit, you could start with the fact that no 2 Christians on this planet agree on everything, and have had to resort to forming thousands of denominations to account for varying differences, and yet all of them claim guidance to the truth by the Holy Spirit. Instead history shows us that Christianity embraced pagan tradition, genocide, witch burning, crusades, discrimination, anti-science and enlightenment. Homosexuality should be the least of Christianity's problems. Yes, let's rely on the Catholic church for guidance, because it's not like pedophilia or greed or past scientific errors are clouding their judgement. Or Protestant Churches, who still like to lie to children and claim the world is only 6,000 years old, while "Saint-like" pastors are preaching prosperity from their multi-million dollar mansions, jets, and stadium churches.More and more Jews, however, are admitting the need to renounce past interpretation regarding the Levitical passages on homosexuality, and many Reform Rabbis, and all Reconstructionist have embrace gays into the Jewish community. While I may disagree with most Jews on the Messiah, I will trust the wisdom of a reform Rabbi over a Southern Baptist any day of the week.

I put that all together because all your position for gay behavior being celebrated in the Church is based on is two, no rather many, many, many, wrongs . . . making a right.

The Gospel message about a sincere walk, is about making rights out of not justifying the wrongs. Interesting that you are so willing to point all of the wrongs, yet, make some excuse for the wrong of homosexuality to be justified in its wrongness. No, actually, in fact, ignored in its wrongness because of other wrongs that you DO want to highlight.

Fascinating.

 

[Znex]

Yes, let's rely on the Catholic church for guidance, because it's not like pedophilia or greed or past scientific errors are clouding their judgement. Or Protestant Churches, who still like to lie to children and claim the world is only 6,000 years old, while "Saint-like" pastors are preaching prosperity from their multi-million dollar mansions, jets, and stadium churches.

More and more Jews, however, are admitting the need to renounce past interpretation regarding the Levitical passages on homosexuality, and many Reform Rabbis, and all Reconstructionist have embrace gays into the Jewish community. While I may disagree with most Jews on the Messiah, I will trust the wisdom of a reform Rabbi over a Southern Baptist any day of the week.

I trust the early church on their decision, because they are so close to the life of Christ that much of them would have been there during his teachings. If their ending thought is that sexual immorality is wrong, then I'd trust them anyday than Jews who still refuse to follow the Messiah, whom God had sent specifically to them.

Anyway, who's saying that homosexuality no longer violates the two most important laws of the Bible? I have not seen anyone trying to find out the relevance of the law made in Leviticus, other than dismiss it altogether. I challenge all to find out how being homosexual is better or equal to being heterosexual, according to the two most sacred and most important laws in Christianity.
'Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."' (Matt 22:34-40)

 

[Cc2468]

Good question. I can't help but have a curiosity on homosexual too.
I apologize, I still don't know or understand many things myself. But here's a bit of a random verse I found on a web site that lists verses on the homo topic.

LEV 18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
detestable.

Take note, that is out of context and no, I don't know the rest of the context. And sorry it sounds kinda harsh, but perhaps IF that is a hard truth, comfort can be found from Jesus?
I am searching to understand many things also. The bible seems harsh on somethings but I'm hoping I can find comfort in it as I read more or understand more.

 

[Jase]

Good question. I can't help but have a curiosity on homosexual too.
I apologize, I still don't know or understand many things myself. But here's a bit of a random verse I found on a web site that lists verses on the homo topic.

LEV 18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
detestable.

Take note, that is out of context and no, I don't know the rest of the context. And sorry it sounds kinda harsh, but perhaps IF that is a hard truth, comfort can be found from Jesus?
I am searching to understand many things also. The bible seems harsh on somethings but I'm hoping I can find comfort in it as I read more or understand more.

In that verse in Hebrew, the "lie" in the first part of the sentence is the word used to refer to sexual encounters through force or deceit. In other words, it's saying for a man to rape another man is a sin.

 

[Avniel]

You mean like they tried to silence dissent to slavery and racism when Christians were claiming it was an abomination for a black man and a white woman to marry?

And Jesus will most assuredly ask you why you judged the LGBT children he created, condemned them to hell, and turned them away from him.

Yes they are did something similar to what you are attempting to do. Also its upsetting when people lump the struggle of my people into homosexuality. Moses wife was a Cu[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e, and if you find one scripture showing God's support of homosexuality I will stand corrected. That is a very racist(I didnt call you a racist I am merely saying it is inappropriate) thing to say like my people some how are a sin. Just because homosexuality is a sin.


Find a scripture like this and I will ask God to forgive me for being wrong about homosexuality until then I am going to say it till I am blue in the face...IT IS A SIN THE BIBLE SAYS. If another christian said they were better then me because I was black I would say...............
"And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. And they said, "Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us?" And the LORD heard it. Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the surface of the earth. And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.WIth him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches, and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them, and he departed. And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle, and behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow, and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and behold, she was leprous.


If someone came to you and said not being judgemental I love all people but being a homosexual is a sin but I pray and love them as brothers and sisters all the same. I just pray they give up their sinful ways what scripture do you have that supports you???? Tell me one scripture where God supported a homosexual relationship? Just 1 thats all I need?

We can disagree but we dont have to be offensive to other peoples cultures.

 

[Jase]

Yes they are did something similar to what you are attempting to do. Also its upsetting when people lump the struggle of my people into homosexuality. Moses wife was a Cu[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e, and if you find one scripture showing God's support of homosexuality I will stand corrected. That is a very racist(I didnt call you a racist I am merely saying it is inappropriate) thing to say like my people some how are a sin. Just because homosexuality is a sin.


Find a scripture like this and I will ask God to forgive me for being wrong about homosexuality until then I am going to say it till I am blue in the face...IT IS A SIN THE BIBLE SAYS. If another christian said they were better then me because I was black I would say...............
"And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. And they said, "Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us?" And the LORD heard it. Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the surface of the earth. And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all my house.WIth him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches, and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them, and he departed. And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle, and behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow, and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and behold, she was leprous.


If someone came to you and said not being judgemental I love all people but being a homosexual is a sin but I pray and love them as brothers and sisters all the same. I just pray they give up their sinful ways what scripture do you have that supports you???? Tell me one scripture where God supported a homosexual relationship? Just 1 thats all I need?

We can disagree but we dont have to be offensive to other peoples cultures.

I don't know where you got the idea that I'm accusing you being black as being a sin. What I'm saying, is that the exact same argument that you like to use for why being gay is a sin, or why gay marriage is wrong, was used 50 years ago, by Christians, to prevent mixed races from marrying - and they claimed to have Biblical justification for the ban on interracial marriage. It wasn't until the Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to deny interracial marriage, that the issue died down. That same situation is occuring now, but instead of blacks being the target, it's gays. I do, however, find it extremely hypocritical for one discriminated minority to turn around and treat another minority as second class citizens. Especially considering your entire flawed argument is based on no more than 5 misinterpreted Biblical verses written thousands of years ago, in entirely unrelated languages.

Since the Bible was written, it has been used as justification to discriminate against every group there is that are deemed different from the majority ruling class, be it Jews, women, blacks, gays, other religions, etc.

 

[onemorequestion]

You mean like they tried to silence dissent to slavery and racism when Christians were claiming it was an abomination for a black man and a white woman to marry?

You reply with leftist/humanist talking points.

Moses married a black woman didn't he? Racism is not the same as different genders. Your argument fails and falls on its face at the biological level.

And Jesus will most assuredly ask you why you judged the LGBT children he created, condemned them to hell, and turned them away from him.

"LGBT" was "created" by people not God. Every letter represents a neologism. Do your research.

 

[onemorequestion]

I don't know where you got the idea that I'm accusing you being black as being a sin.

You compare gay sexual behavior to being black. You have.

What I'm saying, is that the exact same argument that you like to use for why being gay is a sin, or why gay marriage is wrong, was used 50 years ago, by Christians, to prevent mixed races from marrying -

By some Christians. A minority in fact, taking into consideration that the Europeans and Americans are only a part of Christianity and ONLY some English and American people owned slaves. A minute fraction of the Christian populace in fact.

. . . and they claimed to have Biblical justification for the ban on interracial marriage.

And? As can be seen, that is a Hebrew situation NOT a Christian one. Unless they are Israelites and Levite Israelites, they should marry Israelite women. BUT, if an Israelite is Black than there would be nothing wrong there. Again, reality is not an ally to your canard.

It wasn't until the Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to deny interracial marriage, that the issue died down.

How many SCOTUS Judges were Christians at the time they struck down this law?

That same situation is occuring now, but instead of blacks being the target, it's gays.

"Gays? Why not face reality and see that it is same gendered individuals that demand to redefine what a marriage is? "Gays" are men or women. No "Christian" labled them with the "gay" tagline.

And it is Godly discrimination to uphgold marriage as JESUS RE-defined it. In fact, Jesus used discrimination in his sermon on marriage and divorce.

I do, however, find it extremely hypocritical for one discriminated minority to turn around and treat another minority as second class citizens.

If a Black person wants to marry another Black person of the same gender, that is not supported IN the Bible. If it was, you would be plastering tyhe scripture all over these threads.

And by the way, Christians are a minority class that only comprise maybe 0ne-third of the people on this planet.

Especially considering your entire flawed argument is based on no more than 5 misinterpreted Biblical verses written thousands of years ago, in entirely unrelated languages.

The Christian opposition to the secular ideology that drives the gay agenda is based on far more than five clobber passages. There is not even a shred or hint of support for gay anything in the Bible, or in the history of the Christian Church.

Since the Bible was written, it has been used as justification to discriminate against every group there is that are deemed different from the majority ruling class, be it Jews, women, blacks, gays, other religions, etc

.

If you have time and a calculator, please show us how many "Christians" implemented this on the populace?

And last time I read the Bible, "other religions" are STILL in the discriminated against category . . . per Jesus.

And marriage, is still a man and a woman. Said Jesus.

There is nothing wrong with discrimination if it is justified.

Every good parent teaches their children to avoid strangers. Isn't that pure discrmination?

And etc., etc., etc..

 

[Lively Stone]

You compare gay sexual behavior to being black. You have.



By some Christians. A minority in fact, taking into consideration that the Europeans and Americans are only a part of Christianity and ONLY some English and American people owned slaves. A minute fraction of the Christian populace in fact.



And? As can be seen, that is a Hebrew situation NOT a Christian one. Unless they are Israelites and Levite Israelites, they should marry Israelite women. BUT, if an Israelite is Black than there would be nothing wrong there. Again, reality is not an ally to your canard.



How many SCOTUS Judges were Christians at the time they struck down this law?



"Gays? Why not face reality and see that it is same gendered individuals that demand to redefine what a marriage is? "Gays" are men or women. No "Christian" labled them with the "gay" tagline.

And it is Godly discrimination to uphgold marriage as JESUS RE-defined it. In fact, Jesus used discrimination in his sermon on marriage and divorce.



If a Black person wants to marry another Black person of the same gender, that is not supported IN the Bible. If it was, you would be plastering tyhe scripture all over these threads.

And by the way, Christians are a minority class that only comprise maybe 0ne-third of the people on this planet.



The Christian opposition to the secular ideology that drives the gay agenda is based on far more than five clobber passages. There is not even a shred or hint of support for gay anything in the Bible, or in the history of the Christian Church.



If you have time and a calculator, please show us how many "Christians" implemented this on the populace?

And last time I read the Bible, "other religions" are STILL in the discriminated against category . . . per Jesus.

And marriage, is still a man and a woman. Said Jesus.

There is nothing wrong with discrimination if it is justified.

Every good parent teaches their children to avoid strangers. Isn't that pure discrmination?

And etc., etc., etc..

Excellent!

 

[onemorequestion]

Excellent!

Yeah, yeah, let's see you say that if I pass the collection plate.

(Thanks )

 

[Lively Stone]

Yeah, yeah, let's see you say that if I pass the collection plate.

(Thanks )

Haha! These days after the tithe, there isn't much left, but I'd throw something at ya! Right now all I can give is encouragement!