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Phinehas2

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VertigoAge,
Nope. That isn't what I'm proposing at all.
Well yes it is, same sex relationships are described as error and sexual immorality, and where Galatians 5 refers to the fruit of the spirit it also refers to the opposite which is obviously, sexual immorality. Your argument attributes the sin that some may do as fruit of the spirit because the people who do the sin are nice.


1. All Christians are guilty of sins
Let me stop you there. Are any Christians guilty of the sin of same sex relations?


2. Many Biblical passages are not 100% clear cut and do not have unanimous interpretations among Christians.
But those which are such as the ones which condemn same sex relations and presumably the Matthew 7 passages, are clear and thus not interpretations. If you can see that Romans 1 condemns gossiping then you can see it condemns men abandoning the natural relations with women and committing indecent acts with each other.

If you cant don’t be so arrogant as to expect others to see gossiping as wrong.

It bothers me when I see people here say, "the Bible says XYZ.
Which is what you seem to be suggesting about gossiping in Romans 1, the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5 and Matthew 7.

If you don't interpret it my way, you are not a Christian".
If one interpreted ‘Jesus is the way the truth and the life’ as Jesus isnt the way nor the truth nor the life, would that be a Christian?

Calling a self-identified Christian's faith into question is prohibited, and has happened many times in this thread.
Well no it hasn’t, the view is called into question and the pro-gay side try and make out it is against them. There is no such thing as a gay Christian, the person is a Christian.

 
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Peripatetic

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Let me stop you there. Are any Christians guilty of the sin of same sex relations?

Yes.

Are any Christians guilty of the sin of fornication?
Are any Christians guilty of the sin of pride?
Are any Christians guilty of the sin of gluttony?
Are any Christians guilty of the sin of greed?

I say Yes to all of the above. What do you say? If you say Yes to some and No to others, how do you determine which sins disqualify a person from Christianity and which do not? If you say No to all of the above, then there would be no Christians.
 
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Avniel

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Yes.

Are any Christians guilty of the sin of fornication?
Are any Christians guilty of the sin of pride?
Are any Christians guilty of the sin of gluttony?
Are any Christians guilty of the sin of greed?

I say Yes to all of the above. What do you say? If you say Yes to some and No to others, how do you determine which sins disqualify a person from Christianity and which do not? If you say No to all of the above, then there would be no Christians.
How can I be christian and think fornication, pride, gluttony and greed is acceptable to God is the question.
 
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Avniel

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VertigoAge,
So we agree they are all sins. Good. Christians through repentance are forgiven sins through faith in Jesus Christ. So would you agree with that, and would you agree that whoever denies they sin do not have the truth. (1 John)
So that means we agree that if you dont repent then you cant be Christian?
 
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kirmac

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I would like to throw a couple of questions in the way of the posters who adhere to the traditional/conservative side when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. And this means posters like phinehas2, Avniel, onemorequestion and the rest.

1) Do you believe people choose their sexual orientation? (note the word which is the sole object of my focus, nothing to do with homosexual BEHAVIOR, which the Bible clearly condemns as wrong.)

2) for people with same sex attraction, do you think God readily changes their orientations if the person prays and asks for change?

3) How do you propose these people live out their lives? Life-long celibacy? Heterosexual marriage? Suicide?
 
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Peripatetic

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How can I be christian and think fornication, pride, gluttony and greed is acceptable to God is the question.

I never said they were acceptable... just that we all have one or more areas of struggle. I think gluttony is a good parallel. Eating isn't bad, but eating improperly is a sin. It is also something that many people do without acknowledging it as sin while they go on with their Christian life and do God's will. 63.1% of Americans are overweight and 26.5% are obese. Just one look around my church shows me that there are plenty of Christians in that 26.5%. America has an unrepentant gluttony problem. Yet, do people condemn them like homosexuals? Do people say they aren't Christian?
 
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Lively Stone

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I would like to throw a couple of questions in the way of the posters who adhere to the traditional/conservative side when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. And this means posters like phinehas2, Avniel, onemorequestion and the rest.

1) Do you believe people choose their sexual orientation? (note the word which is the sole object of my focus, nothing to do with homosexual BEHAVIOR, which the Bible clearly condemns as wrong.)

Many do choose it out of rebellion. Others have a spirit of perversion that requires renunciation and deliverance.

2) for people with same sex attraction, do you think God readily changes their orientations if the person prays and asks for change?
When a person comes to Jesus Christ, no matter what their habitual sin is, they are changed, and made new creatures in Christ, They have taken on the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit has moved in--He quickens the mind to sin, and that attraction is corrected. We, however, are responsible to train our minds and allow then to be renewed, as Romans 12:2 says---

Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.


3) How do you propose these people live out their lives? Life-long celibacy? Heterosexual marriage? Suicide?

It's kind of hard to live out one's life when one chooses suicide.

People who have had these perversities and have laid them at the cross of Christ, have a life of victory to look forward to.
With the mind and heart renewed, there is no reason one cannot live a normal life and find love and be married and have families as is God's blueprint of us.
 
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Peripatetic

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When a person comes to Jesus Christ, no matter what their habitual sin is, they are changed, and made new creatures in Christ, They have taken on the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit has moved in--He quickens the mind to sin, and that attraction is corrected.

Serious, sincere question for you and the others who have been arguing this position: do you feel - due to the quickening of the mind - that you and other true Christians no longer have any habitual sin? That you are righteous in all areas (with only an occasional lapse here and there), and have no blind spots?
 
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Avniel

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I never said they were acceptable... just that we all have one or more areas of struggle. I think gluttony is a good parallel. Eating isn't bad, but eating improperly is a sin. It is also something that many people do without acknowledging it as sin while they go on with their Christian life and do God's will. 63.1% of Americans are overweight and 26.5% are obese. Just one look around my church shows me that there are plenty of Christians in that 26.5%. America has an unrepentant gluttony problem. Yet, do people condemn them like homosexuals? Do people say they aren't Christian?
Just because your overweight doesn't mean you are a glutton. There are a lot of factors that have to do with obesity(medication, lack of exercise, food allergies)...gluttony is eating to excess.

But if you over eat then you are sinning, and if you think that gluttony isnt a sin then how can you be a Christian because when you are being a glutton you are out of the will of God and to not ask for forgiveness is to remain out of the will of God.
 
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Lively Stone

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Serious, sincere question for you and the others who have been arguing this position: do you feel - due to the quickening of the mind - that you and other true Christians no longer have any habitual sin? That you are righteous in all areas (with only an occasional lapse here and there), and have no blind spots?

No--we all have feet of clay. But the difference is, when we truly take on the mind of Christ, we don't make excuses for our sin. We face up to it and we lay it down again in repentance. That is what makes for a good relationship with Jesus Christ. Outside of that, we have disfellowship with Him.
 
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Avniel

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Serious, sincere question for you and the others who have been arguing this position: do you feel - due to the quickening of the mind - that you and other true Christians no longer have any habitual sin? That you are righteous in all areas (with only an occasional lapse here and there), and have no blind spots?
I feel as though the further and deeper my walk with Christ gets the less struggle I have.....through reading the word, prayer, and help of fellow brothers and sisters.

As far as blind spots of course there are things that I do that are wrong. I do them until I stumble on the word that's dedicated to them, or a brother comes to me and says "hey this part of the bible says........." then I go home and read it and say "oh my I was sinning" after that I go and ask God to forgive me and I make a conscious effort not to do that again, and when I'm done praying for forgiveness I say "in Jesus name amen."

You cant argue with the Bible
 
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Lively Stone

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I feel as though the further and deeper my walk with Christ gets the less struggle I have.....through reading the word, prayer, and help of fellow brothers and sisters.

As far as blind spots of course there are things that I do that are wrong. I do them until I stumble on the word that's dedicated to them, or a brother comes to me and says "hey this part of the bible says........." then I go home and read it and say "oh my I was sinning" after that I go and ask God to forgive me and I make a conscious effort not to do that again, and when I'm done praying for forgiveness I say "in Jesus name amen."

You cant argue with the Bible

Amen! Christians who are serious about their walk with God are on a constant growth curve. Those who compartmentalize their lives and harbour secret sin will find themselves stuck where they are until the Lord jolts them out of it. It is good to be always sensitive to what the Holy Spirit is saying, and responding to Him with submission to His will for our lives, as only he has good things for us!
 
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Peripatetic

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I feel as though the further and deeper my walk with Christ gets the less struggle I have.....through reading the word, prayer, and help of fellow brothers and sisters.

100% agree there. There are dozens of worldly aspects of my life that slowly went away via God's word, praying, and support from others (just as you said above). Let's take a moment away from this sometimes unpleasant discussion to thank God that He does that for us!

That said, I have two particular areas of struggle that I have a feeling will always be with me. And I'm willing to bet that neither of those is as profoundly difficult and life-altering as someone born with the orientation towards homosexuality. Yes, there are some that choose it as a form of rebellion or anger against the opposite gender. However, there are many that absolutely hate the fact that they have abnormal attractions. My heart goes out to them, because I know how I'd feel if I could never act on my attractions and had to remain celibate for my entire life. :(
 
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Avniel

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100% agree there. There are dozens of worldly aspects of my life that slowly went away via God's word, praying, and support from others (just as you said above). Let's take a moment away from this sometimes unpleasant discussion to thank God that He does that for us!

That said, I have two particular areas of struggle that I have a feeling will always be with me. And I'm willing to bet that neither of those is as profoundly difficult and life-altering as someone born with the orientation towards homosexuality. Yes, there are some that choose it as a form of rebellion or anger against the opposite gender. However, there are many that absolutely hate the fact that they have abnormal attractions. My heart goes out to them, because I know how I'd feel if I could never act on my attractions and had to remain celibate for my entire life. :(
The Bible says, "train up a child the way he shall grow and he shall not part from it." As far as the nurture vs. nature nurture always wins according to the bible. We are all born in sin we come into this world as sinners, I was born with personality flaws.......but through the grace of God I've been healed.

To think about something is the same sin as to do it. THrough Jesus Christ all things are possible even an ex homosexual enjoying a family, children and a sexual perversionless life.
 
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Znex

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Many Biblical passages are not 100% clear cut and do not have unanimous interpretations among Christians. It bothers me when I see people here say, "the Bible says XYZ. If you don't interpret it my way, you are not a Christian". This is not only extremely prideful and narrow-minded, it is also against the forum rules. Calling a self-identified Christian's faith into question is prohibited, and has happened many times in this thread. Homosexuality is not in the creed, and a position on it is not foundational to whether one is a Christian or not.
None of the other laws are in the creed either, so are you dismissing the other laws as well now, such as 'do not murder' or 'do not covet'? Sexual immorality was one of the first things the apostles told the Gentiles to look out for. Sin is not based on the impact on the person sinning, but on the impact on those around them, including God. Romans 1 isn't the only NT passage on this, you know:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:9-1)

So that means we agree that if you dont repent then you cant be Christian?
As I stated earlier, anyone can be a Christian, including prostitutes, murderers and thieves. However, one is to assume that the entire meaning of repentance is to confess your error and to move away from making the errors once more. I'm not saying that at some stage we will be able to make no errors (though this does in fact happen when we are resurrected with new bodies; however, I'm talking about our present lives), but being Christian doesn't necessarily get you off the hook when it comes to sin. We have been only saved by the death of Christ through faith, but both Jesus, and the apostles, and those before them, all know that we in repentance are to turn away from our wrongs.

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph 2:10)

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." (Rom 6:1-14)


"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:15-23)
 
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Avniel

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None of the other laws are in the creed either, so are you dismissing the other laws as well now, such as 'do not murder' or 'do not covet'? Sexual immorality was one of the first things the apostles told the Gentiles to look out for. Sin is not based on the impact on the person sinning, but on the impact on those around them, including God. Romans 1 isn't the only NT passage on this, you know:

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:9-1)


As I stated earlier, anyone can be a Christian, including prostitutes, murderers and thieves. However, one is to assume that the entire meaning of repentance is to confess your error and to move away from making the errors once more. I'm not saying that at some stage we will be able to make no errors (though this does in fact happen when we are resurrected with new bodies; however, I'm talking about our present lives), but being Christian doesn't necessarily get you off the hook when it comes to sin. We have been only saved by the death of Christ through faith, but both Jesus, and the apostles, and those before them, all know that we in repentance are to turn away from our wrongs.

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph 2:10)

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." (Rom 6:1-14)


"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:15-23)
You cant be a prostitute and christian you can be delivered from prostitution and a christian but not an active prostitute. You can be delivered from homosexuality and a christian but not an active homosexual
 
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Znex

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You cant be a prostitute and christian you can be delivered from prostitution and a christian but not an active prostitute. You can be delivered from homosexuality and a christian but not an active homosexual
Well that's what I'm saying; with becoming a Christian, it is expected that you turn away from your old sins, throw off your old self and put on your new self.
 
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Peripatetic

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None of the other laws are in the creed either, so are you dismissing the other laws as well now, such as 'do not murder' or 'do not covet'?

No, of course I don't dismiss them. The point is that many of the "non creed" rules are debatable for how to interpret them. Let's take the two you just mentioned. Thou Shalt not Kill: some Christians believe that killing animals is a sin. Some would say killing animals is OK, but killing any other human being is a sin. Some would say that killing in war time is OK, but killing any other time is a sin. Some would say that killing in war time or in self-defense is OK, but any other killing is a sin. Not to mention whether taking someone off of life support is considered murder. All areas of debate among Christians... all requiring interpretation of a simple commandment that doesn't have scenarios or circumstances spelled out. Similarly, there is a whole continuum of definitions of what is and what is not coveting. See what I mean? Interpretation is needed to determine what is and what is not killing or coveting.

What some people are proposing is that the Bible indicates homosexuality for purposes of lust, rape, or conquest is sinful, but others might be OK. I'm not saying that I agree with that, but I do acknowledge that it's debatable. And before you say, "of course it's not debatable... homosexual acts are homosexual acts!", remember that one could just as easily counter with, "of course it's not debatable... killing is killing!" and all of our war heroes throughout the centuries would be in Hell. You either allow for circumstances and context or you don't.

This reminds me of the thread about tattoos where someone said, "of course tattoos are sinful! It says so in Leviticus". But when asked about the rule against cutting hair, they said, "well, you have to look at the context... people used to cut their hair for pagan rituals, so that is why it was not allowed. We don't need that rule anymore." What they failed to mention is that tattoos is in the same exact passage (with the same pagan ritual context) as cutting hair. Some people like to be literal when it suits them, and take context into consideration when the literal text doesn't suit them.
 
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