Jesus Loves You

[xDenax]

I am betting this thread will be closed if not deleted.

 

[sidhe]

Aye, that's the kind of "party logic" that makes my hackles rise, reminding me all too clearly of the fascist regimes of early 20th century Europe.
If God's "administration" was like that, I'd be the first one to join the resistance, even if it meant facing insurmountable odds and sure defeat. I'd simply feel morally compelled to do so, even knowing that it would be a futile struggle.

^This.

 

[awitch]

I am betting this thread will be closed if not deleted.

Would that mean that Jesus doesn't love us?

 

[razeontherock]

Your pastor should be ashamed of himself

Before a critique of your failed attempt at "logic," let's address your reading comprehension as there are obviously other problems there too.

You'll note I said "first Pastor." The rest of your comment flows from assumption that has no substantiation.

This is the sort of stuff that doesn't reflect very well on the idea of a God who loves people.

Borrowing from ongoing dialogue w/ someone else, you're projecting your subjective morality onto the Almighty. That shoe does not fit, you might say. Or perhaps your version of love doesn't jibe with His? Guess which one loses that tug-o-war?

the sort of story that leads to a great deal of unnecessary mental and emotional suffering.

Since the vision was from G-d, all your comment reveals is your version of what is necessary is out of sync with His. Surprise surprise.

Doesn't matter whether you actually believe this is a story simply used by God to scare a person into action (as though that is a good way to get somebody to act anyway).

Since you presume to judge the goodness of it, surely can tell the outcome.

This sort of "revelation" cannot help being a dominant factor in influencing some people towards faith in a very unhealthy way.

What is that based on? (Other than your own faith being admittedly apostate, I mean) And how would you measure such 'health?'

It's a little bit like me having a nightmare in which I kill one of my children...and then telling them that if they don't change their behaviour this will become reality. Horrific and abusive.

Now I know no analogy is perfect, so I grant you ample leeway; but this in no way draws any parallel to what was shown. Try this instead: a nightmare in which if you don't change your behavior there will be unpleasant consequences. Is the recoil really over the concept of facing an inescapable Judge?

 

[razeontherock]

Aye, that's the kind of "party logic" that makes my hackles rise, reminding me all too clearly of the fascist regimes of early 20th century Europe.
If God's "administration" was like that, I'd be the first one to join the resistance, even if it meant facing insurmountable odds and sure defeat. I'd simply feel morally compelled to do so, even knowing that it would be a futile struggle.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your response, but bear with me a little:

1) What "party?" He had to act alone, and furthermore it was never carried out as the vision ended too soon.

2) You're familiar with love. Here you have a person who was already doing all he could, and yet had impressed upon him an urgency that dwarfed anything he'd known previously, for the express purpose of doing more to help his fellow man. Your reaction is resistance?

Or perhaps you merely had a knee jerk reaction, not understanding this was a (figurative and corrective) vision, not a literal command he was to carry out?

 

[b&wpac4]

The entire idea of Hell is what first broke my faith in Christianity. I've seen all the proofs and how it isn't God that does it, it is man, or it is our punishment for sinning or whatever else people want to say, at the end of the day it is eternal punishment for finite crimes, which is infinitely unjust. If the God I worship would do this, I would stop worshiping. How could I be happy in the afterlife knowing there were others suffering eternal torment for the lack of a simple belief?

 

[razeontherock]

Well you are aware there are many who can harmonize actual death as we understand it with the Christian mentions of hell, right? Seems silly to turn that into a single issue. Does that idea line up w/ Judaism? And if it does, what about Christianity would've ever changed it?

 

[b&wpac4]

Well you are aware there are many who can harmonize actual death as we understand it with the Christian mentions of hell, right? Seems silly to turn that into a single issue. Does that idea line up w/ Judaism? And if it does, what about Christianity would've ever changed it?

I'm not sure what you are saying in the first sentence. Do you mean those who believe that Hell is simply the grave, as that is what the literal translation would lead you to believe?

Judaism does not, in general, have a Hell concept. Now, yes, you can go out and find some rabbis who believe the wicked go to a Hell-like place, but again, the definition of wicked is not going to be someone who sins. The most common view I have had is that some will require a period of purification similar to the concept of purgatory.

 

[Wicked Willow]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your response, but bear with me a little:

1) What "party?" He had to act alone, and furthermore it was never carried out as the vision ended too soon.

2) You're familiar with love. Here you have a person who was already doing all he could, and yet had impressed upon him an urgency that dwarfed anything he'd known previously, for the express purpose of doing more to help his fellow man. Your reaction is resistance?

Or perhaps you merely had a knee jerk reaction, not understanding this was a (figurative and corrective) vision, not a literal command he was to carry out?

It isn't the literal imagery of the vision that appalls me, but the warped concept of "justice" behind the implied message of said vision: "get more people to join the party, or we put them in extermination camps".

1) What party? Christianity, of course. Mainstream theology these days turns joining Christianity into the sole act that matters - everything else is "filthy rags". As long as you don't apply for your membership insurance, you're toast. Devoting your life to healing the sick? Filthy rags -> toast. Building and maintaining orphanages? Filthy rags -> toast.
Creating a vaccine to eliminate a gruesome disease? Filthy rags -> toast.
The ONLY thing that matters is being a member of the right club. Anything else is irrelevant.
I wish I could find this Christian Youtube video that tries to sell *exactly* this message by having people stand in line to have their files weighed by the grinning doorkeepers. I guess they intended it to be funny, or instructive, but all I see there is a loathsome, dehumanizing belief system that basically institutes an act of celestial bribery as the pinnacle of virtue.

2) The perverted logic inherent to this belief system makes proselytizing more important that healing the sick or helping the needy. I think I'll look up that infamous sermon by A.W. Pink that declared humanitarian efforts to be the greatest enemy of Christianity, as they just led to people focusing on THIS life rather than the next. Aye, people shouldn't enjoy living- as before, the only thing that matters is pleasing God, and the only way to please God is invoking the Bribe and joining the party.

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus Loves You

Says who?

 

[Duckybill]

I don't think Jesus loves me that much since I am of the opinion that the "teachings" of his father are not worth the paper they are printed on...

Good point!

 

[Duckybill]

I agree 100% with this.

But that would depend entirely on whose moral standard you go by, yours or God's.

 

[Wicked Willow]

But that would depend entirely on whose moral standard you go by, yours or God's.

If "God's" standard does not measure up to any concept of justice that is identifiable as such, and instead embraces a genocidal policy of annihilating/tormenting vast portions of humanity for - well, not being God, then honestly, what kind of standard is that? None that I could support, for sure.

 

[Duckybill]

If "God's" standard does not measure up to any concept of justice that is identifiable as such, and instead embraces a genocidal policy of annihilating/tormenting vast portions of humanity for - well, not being God, then honestly, what kind of standard is that? None that I could support, for sure.

God's standard would be FAR ABOVE every one else. I.E. drowning everyone on Earth but 8. And so it would be our responsibility to meet His standard.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

 

[scraparcs]

God's standard would be FAR ABOVE every one else. I.E. drowning everyone on Earth but 8. And so it would be our responsibility to meet His standard.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Not even the most psychotic would suggest that this means that we should pray for God to drown everyone on earth. I dare say most of us would find such a prayer evil. But if that's God's standard, does that make drowning sinners good?

Color me confused.

 

[Duckybill]

Not even the most psychotic would suggest that this means that we should pray for God to drown everyone on earth. I dare say most of us would find such a prayer evil. But if that's God's standard, does that make drowning sinners good?

Color me confused.

Ok, you're confused. It was God's idea. Whatever God does is "good".

 

[scraparcs]

So that makes drowning all but 8 people good?

I guess then I'm confused about the definition of good.

 

[Duckybill]

So that makes drowning all but 8 people good?

I guess then I'm confused about the definition of good.

I guess that depends on if you believe in the God of the Bible. Which begs the quetion, Who can tell God what to do?

 

[razeontherock]

I'm not sure what you are saying in the first sentence. Do you mean those who believe that Hell is simply the grave, as that is what the literal translation would lead you to believe?

Judaism does not, in general, have a Hell concept.

Yeah, that would be it. If that is your understanding of the Law and Prophets, what is it about Christianity that would alter that in any way?

 

[Riski]

Not even the most psychotic would suggest that this means that we should pray for God to drown everyone on earth. I dare say most of us would find such a prayer evil. But if that's God's standard, does that make drowning sinners good?

Color me confused.

Ok, you're confused. It was God's idea. Whatever God does is "good".

Duckybill perhaps you believe too much but don't think enough, unless you think Christians are not expected to think and believe, just believe?