There must be uncaused cause even in an infinite chain.

[AskTheFamily]

Why?

What's the point of answering this if you deny logic?

I can;t logical prove to you logic if you deny logic in the 1st place.

Oh, now God is excluded? Then your definition is wrong. If the universe means 'all existing things', then God is included. If God is not included, then you're using a different definition.

language is used by people, I'm telling you what the word traditional always meant and how it was used before and is now used.

Universe was meant to denote all things, but people usually used the term in that sense excluding God. This is how the term is used.

Have you run out of actual arguments? Threats are not arguments, you know.

Yes I know.

Because both run on laws within the universe. We're not talking about things inside the universe, we're talking about universes.

Are using logic to deduce this?

I don't know, I have no idea what you just wrote. I did use logic, because one of the wonderful things about logic is that it can be used to prove itself.

lol... u crack me up.

I'm still waiting for you to come up with a coherent argument.

You have to accept logic to start with to accept logical arguments.

But you are saying logic is reliable, or have you changed your mind?

"from nothing, nothing follows" is a self-evident premise. Just as

A -> B
Not B
Therefore Not A, is self-evident, although it helps to observe our knowledge.

So from nothing, nothing follows, is self-evident.

If you want to believe not every effect has a cause, up to you. You can imagine your imaginery worlds were logical rules don't apply, and things just pop of no where without a cause.

 

[ukgrace]

Originally Posted by AskTheFamily
No one believing that the universes could have simply came out of nothingness.
​

Sorry to be a nuisance but could you possibly tell us what the creator made everything from then?
Thank you.

 

[durangodawood]

Lets reiterate:
.
The apparent necessity of cause-effect is NOT an axiom of logic.
.
Its merely a result of inductive reasoning.
.

 

[ToHoldNothing]

Thanks for the Humean skeptic reminder, durangodawood. And even if we granted AskTheFamily's argument as sound, the difficulty remains as to the nature of the Uncaused Cause. Deist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Baha'i and probably Sikh as well. Even if we all agreed with the logic, which clearly, we don't, there is less chance than that with agreeing on the nature of this "Creator"

 

[AskTheFamily]

No one believing that the universes could have simply came out of nothingness.
​

Sorry to be a nuisance but could you possibly tell us what the creator made everything from then?
Thank you.

Here, I will quote Du'a from Fatima Al-Zahra (The best women to have ever existed):

By the name of Allah, the light,
By the name of Allah, the light of the light,
by the name of Allah, the light over light,
by the name of Allah, who is He who manages all affairs,
by the. name of Allah who created light from light.
Praise be to Allah who created light from light, and sent down light on the mountain (Tur), in between the inscribed book, in the parchment unrolled, by a measure, well-determined, on the (Holy) Prophet, the giver of glad tidings.
Praise be to Allah; it is He who is remembered with the highest of the high attributes, who is known to be the most glorious.
In joy and happiness, in sorrow and distress, He (alone) is thankfully praised.
Blessings of Allah be on our master, Muhammad, and on his family the pure.

 

[SithDoughnut]

Here, I will quote Du'a from Fatima Al-Zahra (The best women to have ever existed):

By the name of Allah, the light,
By the name of Allah, the light of the light,
by the name of Allah, the light over light,
by the name of Allah, who is He who manages all affairs,
by the. name of Allah who created light from light.
Praise be to Allah who created light from light, and sent down light on the mountain (Tur), in between the inscribed book, in the parchment unrolled, by a measure, well-determined, on the (Holy) Prophet, the giver of glad tidings.
Praise be to Allah; it is He who is remembered with the highest of the high attributes, who is known to be the most glorious.
In joy and happiness, in sorrow and distress, He (alone) is thankfully praised.
Blessings of Allah be on our master, Muhammad, and on his family the pure.

Lovely, but that doesn't answer the question. It does not say what Allah is made from.

Also, it doesn't rhyme. Minus 10 points.

 

[AskTheFamily]

The apparent necessity of cause-effect is NOT an axiom of logic.
.

And you know this is not axium of logic by logic?

Now people get to assert logic?

If you don't except it as a logical rule up to you. And if you want to base conclusions on hope that beyond the physical rules we know, things occur without a cause, or pop into existence without cause, it's up to you.

Suppose God exists, just suppose for a second. Suppose he put into us logic and a light, that we can know he exists.

We can witness logical facts as sure facts, and we can witness his divine names as Eternal, let's suppose this is true, what kind of excuse would it be that you denied you can know logical facts for sure that prove his Existence? What kind of excuse?

And if his Names are with creation and are self-evident of being true and having Eternal Basis, then what is the excuse of not acknowledging him?

Just suppose it was true, would there be an excuse? Now suppose it was true, how would you know?

 

[Cute Tink]

I am also wondering where the logic is in the conclusion that the Uncaused Cause must be a particular creator (ATF's believed creator).

 

[ukgrace]

Here, I will quote Du'a from Fatima Al-Zahra (The best women to have ever existed):

By the name of Allah, the light,
By the name of Allah, the light of the light,
by the name of Allah, the light over light,
by the name of Allah, who is He who manages all affairs,
by the. name of Allah who created light from light.
Praise be to Allah who created light from light, and sent down light on the mountain (Tur), in between the inscribed book, in the parchment unrolled, by a measure, well-determined, on the (Holy) Prophet, the giver of glad tidings.
Praise be to Allah; it is He who is remembered with the highest of the high attributes, who is known to be the most glorious.
In joy and happiness, in sorrow and distress, He (alone) is thankfully praised.
Blessings of Allah be on our master, Muhammad, and on his family the pure.

So you don't have an answer, I thought as much, you're just another fruit cake who requires answers from every one else but can give no answers in return.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Lovely, but that doesn't answer the question. It does not say what Allah is made from.

It does.

Also, it doesn't rhyme. Minus 10 points.

It does in Arabic, so + 20 points for me, to make +10

 

[AskTheFamily]

I am also wondering where the logic is in the conclusion that the Uncaused Cause must be a particular creator (ATF's believed creator).

The proof of Divnity and It's Oneness and the Divine Names, is a differnet proof. It's unrelated with this.

The proof of God's Oneness and his beautiful Names is a stronger proof for a Creator, then this argument, because it increases in vision once one accepts it, and a person can constantly witness it, without need of a series of sentences to a form a conclusion (like the argument here).

However, I decided, that 1st I go design, something we can see evidently (emprical evidence), then cause and effect, then eventaully, I will get to metaphyiscal proofs of God's Oneness and his beautiful Names.

However, my experience, is people whom don't accept the 1st two, will laught at the metaphysical proof and deny the light of the beautiful Divine Names, scoffing at it, but if I bring sound arguments (like design thread and this thread), I hope it will make people more open to it, and again, I believe it's a stronger proof of a Creator, and it's the most focused upon argument of the Quran.

 

[SithDoughnut]

It does.

Allah is made from light?

It does in Arabic, so + 20 points for me, to make +10

OK, 20 points it is. I'm trusting you on this though, so it best rhyme .

 

[ukgrace]

Islam like Christianity are all bluff and smoke, they have no substance whatsoever.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Islam like Christianity are all bluff and smoke, they have no substance whatsoever.

And your cliches like this one is full of substance?

 

[durangodawood]

And you know this is not axium of logic by logic?

Now people get to assert logic?

If you don't except it as a logical rule up to you. And if you want to base conclusions on hope that beyond the physical rules we know, things occur without a cause, or pop into existence without cause, it's up to you.

Ask anyone who studies logic. Cause and effect is NO axiom of logic. You may argue that its a logical conclusion. And I may argue its not.
.
But LOGIC takes no position, assuming we dont make errors. its the PREMISES that are at issue here, not the logic.
.
And then consider this:
Cause-effect requires TIME. What does it mean for an object OUTSIDE TIME (which the universe-itself may be) to require a cause? Its completely meaningless.
.

Suppose God exists, just suppose for a second. Suppose he put into us logic and a light, that we can know he exists.

We can witness logical facts as sure facts, and we can witness his divine names as Eternal, let's suppose this is true, what kind of excuse would it be that you denied you can know logical facts for sure that prove his Existence? What kind of excuse?

And if his Names are with creation and are self-evident of being true and having Eternal Basis, then what is the excuse of not acknowledging him?

Just suppose it was true, would there be an excuse? Now suppose it was true, how would you know?

If God was that evident, then I'd be an idiot not to acknowledge "Him". But he's not that evident.
.

 

[DaveInVain]

Infinite is a paradox. It eventually contradicts itself. If God was able to come from nothing(whoever God may be, according to many world religions) why can't Humans?

 

[SithDoughnut]

Infinite is a paradox. It eventually contradicts itself.

How?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Ask anyone who studies logic.

I have studied and taken classes. It seems where I come from, 'every effect has a cause' is taken as an axiom and not observation.

Also logic has been taught for centuries, Aristotle, others whom taught logic through history, did they not accept, "from nothing, nothing follows" as self-evident fact?

You get to pick the Scientists whom dictate science, and now you get to pick whom get's to dictate Logic?

The Leader of the Islamic revolution of Iran, Khomeini, said this as self-evident fact, he taught logic, learned logic, he took at a self-evident fact everyone knows.

All the people there whom been teaching logic for centuries, all teach this as self-evident fact.

And to be honest, even in the west, I was taught this as an axiom and in both logic courses I took in University.

Universe is not outside time, if you want to talk about things outside time, give a new name, because universe refers to everything in time, you and I and the animals and trees and stars are all part of the universe and are in time.

 

[AskTheFamily]

Infinite is a paradox. It eventually contradicts itself. If God was able to come from nothing(whoever God may be, according to many world religions) why can't Humans?

If God could come from nothing, then yes why can;t humans. But God didn't come from nothing, he Always was, he eternal before with no start, and last after with no end, and is not changing nor in motion, and time doesn't apply to him and change him.

Time doesn't apply to him. He has no quantifiable age like humans. He has no start.

 

[DaveInVain]

I can prove it by math or by reason SithDoughnut, which is it?