Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Der Alte]

I think it is fairly clear from verse 18 that Jesus was using the views of the afterlife of the Jews, adopted from the pagan Greeks that once occupied Israel and later adopted by the Romans, as His vehicle for the parable.

Do you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence that the Jews copied anything from pagan Greeks? Nah, didn't think so! But that is a good excuse for legalists like you. Anything you don't like about Judaism you can claim it was copied from pagans. Most folks say it was copied from the Babbleonians.

Jesus NEVER said anything at any time which could be construed as condemning the Jews for their beliefs about the eternal punishment of the unrighteous in Gehenna. Note is this article the 39 vss. of scripture highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a).A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, [greek]Αληθεις Ιστοριαι[/greek], i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince:
"I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

That's why Jesus in verse 18 called the Jewish leaders adulterers. They had the scriptures to tell them all about what happens at death, yet chose to believe and adopt pagan beliefs. This is illustrated in Jeremiah 3 when Israel and later Judah were overcome by their adultery from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

Complete rubbish! Vs. 18 says nothing about the Jewish leaders being adulterers.

Luk 16:18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth one that is put away from a husband committeth adultery.​

There are so many symbolic meanings hidden in this parable that it cannot be considered an actual view of the afterlife.

The old SPAM-Fig copout! When ever scripture as written contradicts someones false assumptions/presuppositions they are summarily dismissed as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative.

Here, from the Talmud, are the teachings of the two schools, in Israel at the time of Jesus, Hillel and Shammai

Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

R. Kruspedai said in the name of R. Johanan: Three books are opened on New Year's Day: one for the utterly wicked, one for the wholly good, and one for the average class of people. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."
We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. xii. 2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him." p. 27
[paragraph continues] Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, cxvi. 1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].
Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"; but as for Minim, informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces." R. Itz'hac b. Abhin says: "Their faces are black like the sides of a caldron"; while Rabha remarked: "Those who are now the handsomest of the people of Me'huzza will yet be called the children of Gehenna."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
​

 

[RND]

See Philo's Platonic Judaism, the Jewish Orphics, the appearance of the Persian flaming hell in Hellenistic Jewish theology, etc. It is evident that the Jews had different views of death as evidenced by the difference between the Sadducees and Pharisees.

Numerous Jewish sects had radically different ideas, each more or less accumulating ideas from surrounding cultures. This is a fact. That where the term "Hellenized Jews" came from.

Hellenistic Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This can easily be demonstrated as having commonality with the Christian notion and belief that Christ was born on December 25th. Most people understand this to be a pagan date for celebrating the "birth of the sun" that eventually was adopted by Christianity. The Jews, unfortunately, did the same thing.

 

[RND]

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, [greek]Αληθεις Ιστοριαι[/greek], i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.
​

​

FYI, I highlighted a key point from your source.

 

[RND]

Complete rubbish! Vs. 18 says nothing about the Jewish leaders being adulterers.

Luk 16:18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth one that is put away from a husband committeth adultery.​

Jesus was calling the Pharisees adulterers, in a very indirect manner, for accepting, believing and espousing pagan views. It is a well known fact that the Jews at the time of Jesus were what are called "Hellenistic".

Hellenistic Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry. Facts are facts.

 

[RND]

The old SPAM-Fig copout! When ever scripture as written contradicts someones false assumptions/presuppositions they are summarily dismissed as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative.

Well, again, facts are facts. It is difficult to examine Luke 16:19-31 without looking closely at the obvious symbolism that Jesus uses in the parable. Thus when we see Jesus using such language as "...desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:..." and it coinciding with other parts of the gospels it is something that we must take note of and not dismiss so hastily. Such a rash reaction seems incomprehensible quite frankly.

 

[Der Alte]

Complete rubbish! Vs. 18 says nothing about the Jewish leaders being adulterers.

Luk 16:18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth one that is put away from a husband committeth adultery.​

​

​

Jesus was calling the Pharisees adulterers, in a very indirect manner, for accepting, believing and espousing pagan views. It is a well known fact that the Jews at the time of Jesus were what are called "Hellenistic".

Hellenistic Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry. Facts are facts.

As I said complete rubbish! You have no facts! Wiki is as reliable as the scribblings on a public restroom wall. Every page has links, "Edit this page." Anybody can post or change anything, at any time, with no review or controls.

If you are interested in the truth, which I doubt, try the Jewish Encyclopedia the article on Hellenism. It says nothing about Jews adopting pagan religious ideas or practices.

 

[RND]

"...For I have five brethren;..."

Judah literally had five actual blood brothers. Jacob and Leah had six sons. Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulun.

The Pharisees were, you guessed it, Jews.

 

[RND]

As I said complete rubbish! You have no facts! Wiki is as reliable as the scribblings on a public restroom wall. Every page has links, "Edit this page." Anybody can post or change anything, at any time, with no review or controls.

The source uses references from many sources.

Maybe something from Syracuse University will work: The Jewish Diaspora in the Hellenistic Period


Hellenistic period

It took a long time, of course, for Judaism, under the influence of cosmopolitan Hellenism, to rise to the highest altitudes of Greek intellectual life, and to recast its own world-conceptions in the molds of Greek philosophy. One can readily understand that Judaism felt itself powerfully attracted by Greek philosophy. Wellhausen ("I. J. G." pp. 217, 218) has very rightly noted how the intellectual development of Judaism, with its tendency to become a purified monotheism, moves in the same direction toward which Greek thought tends, in occupying itself with speculative consideration of the universe. In monotheism, as well as in the abstract God-idea of Greek philosophy, the Jew could see the logical result and completion of that which his own great prophets had yearned for and declared. His delight in the purity of the Platonic conception of God, or the strict logic of the Stoic theodicy, would blind him to the fact that both in the Platonic transcendentalism and the Stoic pantheism the living personality of the Deity—a self-understood axiom of his conception—was well-nigh lost.



In many respects, Greek philosophy must have appeared to him far superior to anything which the Jewish mind had ever evolved. There, in Judaism, was a scheme of thought concentered in the relation of God to the world and to His chosen people. Here was a philosophy which was not only a theology at the same time, but which, in response to a broader interest felt now by Judaism too, sought to penetrate with its investigations into every department of the universe and of life. There, in Judaism, was a collection of sacred books, of different ages and differing views; a disconnected mass of proverbial wisdom; an abundance of ceremonial usages which were tending more and more to resolve themselves into mere unintelligible customs; a system of casuistry regulated more by ritual than by ethical considerations. Here, on the other hand, was a logical system, ruling moral life through sound and noble principles; there, a sacred literature written in popular and unsophisticated form, without regard to artistic rules or laws of logic; here, a language which exhibited the influence of centuries of artistic development, and whose skilfully constructed periods charmed the ear.

 

[Der Alte]

The old SPAM-Fig copout! When ever scripture as written contradicts someones false assumptions/presuppositions they are summarily dismissed as symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, or figurative

.

Well, again, facts are facts.

Your unsupported guesses, assumptions and presuppositions are NOT facts!

It is difficult to examine Luke 16:19-31 without looking closely at the obvious symbolism that Jesus uses in the parable. Thus when we see Jesus using such language as "...desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:..." and it coinciding with other parts of the gospels it is something that we must take note of and not dismiss so hastily. Such a rash reaction seems incomprehensible quite frankly.

Google on rich man and Lazarus you will see dozens and dozens of websites all claiming to have the real truth about the "parable" with all kinds of fanciful figurative explanations for everything. How do we know that you alone, out of all those explanations, have the only correct one?

If the view of Hades expressed in Luke 16:19-48 comes from pagan concepts of punishment in Hades etc. why would Jesus use an out and out lie to illustrate Bible truth?

In vs. 26 Abraham is talking to one man but he uses a plural pronoun indicating there is more than one man in the same place.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

If Abraham represents the Jewish priesthood, who are the others?

 

[RND]

Your unsupported guesses, assumptions and presuppositions are NOT facts!

Maybe then you wouldn't mind telling us who the five brethren are.

Google on rich man and Lazarus you will see dozens and dozens of websites all claiming to have the real truth about the "parable" with all kinds of fanciful figurative explanations for everything. How do we know that you alone, out of all those explanations, have the only correct one?

Well, who else could the five brethren? Surely the Bible can speak for itself and can answer the question.

If the view of Hades expressed in Luke 16:19-48 comes from pagan concepts of punishment in Hades etc. why would Jesus use an out and out lie to illustrate Bible truth?

Verse 18 explains that. He was calling them adulterers for accepting non-Torah beliefs.

In vs. 26 Abraham is talking to one man but he uses a plural pronoun indicating there is more than one man in the same place.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

If Abraham represents the Jewish priesthood, who are the others?

The "they" are those that the Jews believed didn't have eternal life because they weren't Jewish. Jews did not believe that non-Jews had eternal life. Thus the "they" were gentiles.

BTW, the "great gulf fixed" also has symbolic meaning!

 

[Der Alte]

The source uses references from many sources.

Maybe something from Syracuse University will work: The Jewish Diaspora in the Hellenistic Period


Hellenistic period[ . . . ]

Wiki is no more reliable than the scribblings on a public rest room wall! Anybody can post or change anything. Nothing about the first link indicates it has any association with any university. And NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Just a lot of assertions and I saw nothing about Jews adopting pagan religious beliefs and practices. The second link is just a bunch of stuff posted by some unknown individual.

What is wrong with the Jewish Encyclopedia? You keep showing me you are not interested in the truth, just frantically scouring the internet trying to find something by somebody that will support you.

 

[Der Alte]

Maybe then you wouldn't mind telling us who the five brethren are.

Well, who else could the five brethren? Surely the Bible can speak for itself and can answer the question.

Irrelevant! Every one of the sons of Israel had eleven NOT 5 brothers! I cannot find one verse which mentions five brothers other than Luke 16.

Verse 18 explains that. He was calling them adulterers for accepting non-Torah beliefs.

Verse 18 says absolutely nothing about anyone accepting non-Torah beliefs. The more you argue the more unscriptural and absurd your arguments become.

The "they" are those that the Jews believed didn't have eternal life because they weren't Jewish. Jews did not believe that non-Jews had eternal life. Thus the "they" were gentiles.

Where is this place that Jewish priests and gentiles end up where none of them can get out?

BTW, the "great gulf fixed" also has symbolic meaning!

I can find dozens and dozens of "symbolic meanings" for the great gulf, all argued from some random verses in the OT.

 

[RND]

Wiki is no more reliable than the scribblings on a public rest room wall! Anybody can post or change anything. Nothing about the first link indicates it has any association with any university.

Except the link itself!

http://classes.maxwell.syr.edu/his301-001/jeishh_diaspora_in_greece.htm

http://[B]www.syr.edu[/B]/

And NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Just a lot of assertions and I saw nothing about Jews adopting pagan religious beliefs and practices. The second link is just a bunch of stuff posted by some unknown individual.

"that sought to establish a Hebraic-Jewish religious tradition within the culture and language of Hellenism." Really? OK.

What is wrong with the Jewish Encyclopedia? You keep showing me you are not interested in the truth, just frantically scouring the internet trying to find something by somebody that will support you.

I have no problem with The Kopelman Foundation and the Jewish Encyclopedia.

 

[RND]

Irrelevant! Every one of the sons of Israel had eleven NOT 5 brothers! I cannot find one verse which mentions five brothers other than Luke 16.

No stab at an answer? Tell others their thoughts, notions and ideas are wrong without a shred of attempting to tell us who the five brethren are?

Typical!

Verse 18 says absolutely nothing about anyone accepting non-Torah beliefs. The more you argue the more unscriptural and absurd your arguments become.

I'll direct you to the above. No explanation as to why someone is wrong....they are just plain ol' wrong.

Where is this place that Jewish priests and gentiles end up where none of them can get out?

In that six-inch span between the ears of the pagans and Jews that believe such notions.

I can find dozens and dozens of "symbolic meanings" for the great gulf, all argued from some random verses in the OT.

And yet you posit no view of your own. Dozens and dozens are wrong, because, well, you say so.

"Neaner, neaner!" What a great argument. Goes along with "Does not!", "Does too!" and "My dad can beat your dad up!"

 

[Der Alte]

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

FYI, I highlighted a key point from your source.

Meaningless! FYI I don't care what you highlight. It does NOT say "copied from the Greek idea of Hell." "There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell." I'm sure there are many things in Judaism which are similar to practices in pagan religions. Pagan priests wore special robes, oops, Judaism agrees with that. Pagan religions had animal sacrifices oops, Judaism agrees with that.

 

[RND]

Meaningless!

You should examine your sources better! Don't be so hasty to cut n' paste (and then not reference them) without checking to see if they back me up first!

FYI I don't care what you highlight.

Well, that must be because it backs-up what I said!

It does NOT say "copied from the Greek idea of Hell." "There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell."

Bingo!

I'm sure there are many things in Judaism which are similar to practices in pagan religions.

In the original Hebraic religion (much different than Judaism) God's men were adorned and outfitted differently than other religious priests.

Pagan priests wore special robes, oops, Judaism agrees with that. Pagan religions had animal sacrifices oops, Judaism agrees with that.

The Hebraic, the one of the Bible, dressed the priests differently than the surrounding religions.

 

[Der Alte]

No stab at an answer? Tell others their thoughts, notions and ideas are wrong without a shred of attempting to tell us who the five brethren are?

Typical!

You have been harping about the five brothers for several posts, when are you going to produce your evidence? In Luke 16 the only thing the five brothers means is the rich man was concerned about his family who was still alive.

I'll direct you to the above. No explanation as to why someone is wrong....they are just plain ol' wrong.

Where have I said you are wrong without saying how? In this case I said I cannot find a single verse in the OT which mentions 5 brothers. And although you have been harping on this you have NOT given any evidence to back up any wild theory about 5 brothers.

In that six-inch span between the ears of the pagans and Jews that believe such notions.

So you have Jesus quoting Abraham talking about something that does NOT exist, pure fiction, and never explaining what anything in the story meant.

And yet you posit no view of your own. Dozens and dozens are wrong, because, well, you say so.

Blatantly false! I did give a reason in the first sentence!

Verse 18 says absolutely nothing about anyone accepting non-Torah beliefs. The more you argue the more unscriptural and absurd your arguments become.​

"Neaner, neaner!" What a great argument. Goes along with "Does not!", "Does too!" and "My dad can beat your dad up!"

I have given my view repeatedly! Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. And that will be my view until someone can show me conclusive evidence from Jesus that he meant something else.

 

[RND]

You have been harping about the five brothers for several posts, when are you going to produce your evidence?

I already did! You rejected it! You said that was Irrelevant! Every one of the sons of Israel had eleven NOT 5 brothers!

Again, I said "blood" brothers> I qualified my statement quite clearly. Unfortunately, you just like to tell people they are wrong without offering proof of your own.

Kind'a like the boy who cried wolf!

I cannot find one verse which mentions five brothers other than Luke 16.

Look in Genesis 29 & 30. Jacob and Leah had six boys meaning Judah had 5 brothers.

Where have I said you are wrong without saying how?

Here! As usual you have offered no proof as to who the 5 brothers are other than, "Are not!" Classy kid!

In this case I said I cannot find a single verse in the OT which mentions 5 brothers.

Dig a little!

And although you have been harping on this you have NOT given any evidence to back up any wild theory about 5 brothers.

Sure I have!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306890-47/#post55033008

Read Genesis 29 & 30 for goodness sake!

So you have Jesus quoting Abraham talking about something that does NOT exist, pure fiction, and never explaining what anything in the story meant.

That's because He explained as He went. Oh, and that reminds me that Jesus never spoke to the Pharisees in anything other than parable.

Blatantly false! I did give a reason in the first sentence!

Verse 18 says absolutely nothing about anyone accepting non-Torah beliefs. The more you argue the more unscriptural and absurd your arguments become.​

That's a statement, not a reason!

I have given my view repeatedly!

No, you've just cried out things like "Irrelevant" without offering any proof yourself.

Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. And that will be my view until someone can show me conclusive evidence from Jesus that he meant something else.

Neaner, neaner argumentation.

I have offered you example from the Bible that you reject out of hand without having anything yourself to offer as to the contrary of what I write. The argumentation that more resembles that of 8 year-olds and not adults.

 

[Der Alte]

You should examine your sources better! Don't be so hasty to cut n' paste (and then not reference them) without checking to see if they back me up first!

Well, that must be because it backs-up what I said!

Bingo!

Total rubbish! Nothing in the Jewish Encyclopedia backs up your assertion that the pagan concept of hell was copied from the Greeks. The only thing you have shown is that the Jews believed that Hell smelled of sulphur as did the Greeks. To which I replied there are likely many things in Greek mythology, and other pagan religions, which are similar to practices in ancient Judaism.

In the original Hebraic religion (much different than Judaism) God's men were adorned and outfitted differently than other religious priests.

The Hebraic, the one of the Bible, dressed the priests differently than the surrounding religions.

Irrelevant! This doesn't make sense! Please share with us your extensive knowledge, citing historical evidence, for the so-called differences between the "original Hebraic religion" and "Judaism?" Irrelevant that there may have been some differences. There were many similarities. temples, sacred temple furnishings, holy days, priests, high priests, animal sacrifices, burnt offerings, ritual cleansing, etc. etc. etc. So the fact that Judaism believed that hell smelled of sulphur, as did the Greeks means abso-diddly squat! It does NOT prove anything was copied from pagan religions.

 

[RND]

Total rubbish! Nothing in the Jewish Encyclopedia backs up your assertion that the pagan concept of hell was copied from the Greeks. The only thing you have shown is that the Jews believed that Hell smelled of sulphur as did the Greeks. To which I replied there are likely many things in Greek mythology, and other pagan religions, which are similar to practices in ancient Judaism.

Bingo! "...as did the Greeks..."

Irrelevant!

Is this your favorite word or what!?

This doesn't make sense! Please share with us your extensive knowledge, citing historical evidence, for the so-called differences between the "original Hebraic religion" and "Judaism?"

The Bible? They were Israelites, as a nation, long before there were just "Jews".

Irrelevant that there may have been some differences.

You mean God didn't set these people apart?

There were many similarities. temples, sacred temple furnishings, holy days, priests, high priests, animal sacrifices, burnt offerings, ritual cleansing, etc. etc. etc. So the fact that Judaism believed that hell smelled of sulphur, as did the Greeks means abso-diddly squat! It does NOT prove anything was copied from pagan religions.

Well, there weren't as many as you might think. It might also be nice if you took your own advise and offered some proof to go along with your "statements."

See Ezekiel 8 BTW. There is a reason God's people entered the tabernacle with the sun to their backs and not facing it. This is just one example of how God made sure His people Israel were separate from the other nations.

You're a real peach DA! Here's your arguments so far!

"Does not!", "Nuh-uh!", Neaner, neaner!", "Does too!", "My dad can beat your dad up!"