Let's try this again

[shinbits]

"Exactly" right. It is all about the "intent". So you have determined in your own mind that you know the "intent" of the people in these pictures, ignore the fact that people who practice such devotion explain to you that your understanding of the "intent is in error, and proceed merrily along with accusations. It's a pretty easy game to play when you make up all the rules, control the minds of all the people playing, and judge the outcome. A game limited to the confines of your own mind of course, but an easy one to play nonetheless.

Based on the godlike (or near godlike) status Catholic's have elevated Mary to, the motives of the people in those pics are clear.

If you saw pics of men throwing dollar bills at a stripper, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume those men are there to regard that woman as a sexual object? Or would you say "pfft, those men are probably throwing money to help her out with groceries"? By the arguments you've been using, it seems you'd chose the later.

 

[boswd]

Who do you know that prays to a flag? I don't know of anyone. However, I know of millions (maybe billions) of people who pray to Mary. So assuming she's praying to a flag at this point, is rediculous.


In the Bible, statues and images were used to represent false gods. It wasn't always that people thought the wood or stone itself was a god, but worshipped the stone (or used the stone) as an indirect worship of the god. Take the Ashera poles in the book of Kings, for examples. There are many others.

The Catholics in these pics are doing the same.


We KNOW that Catholics all over the world bow down TO statues of Mary, not just bow down while Mary statues just "happen" to be around. Sure, a FEW Catholics might not; but it's well known that many Catholics do bow down, SPECIFICALLY to statues of Mary.

That's right because my Pastor, Pastor Bubba tells me so

 

[shinbits]

The lay out of that web page is horrible. Looks like it was done by a second grader.

Lolz. The last desperate move of someone who can't defend their position, discredit the source. Nice that you ignore the pic that had real Catholic clergy in it.

Or if that one isn't real enough:
http://www.mliles.com/melkite/images/apopebishopsv2b2.jpg

Look who's bowing to Mary.

Or is that "made up" to?

 

[shinbits]

So basically, in summary, Shinbits thinks he knows the intents and perceptions of Roman Catholics better then Roman Catholics themselves?

No. In summary, you guys are in denial of something you're obviously doing. Like a little kid who denies stealing cookies, though his hands and face are stained with chocolate.

 

[laconicstudent]

No. In summary, you guys are in denial of something you're obviously doing. Like a little kid who denies stealing cookies, though his hands and face are stained with chocolate.

ROFL. So basically yes, you do think you know the intent and perceptions of Roman Catholics better then they do.

 

[narnia59]

Who do you know that prays to a flag? I don't know of anyone. However, I know of millions (maybe billions) of people who pray to Mary. So assuming she's praying to a flag at this point, is rediculous.

Again -- are you talking about praying to Mary, or praying to the statue? That's 2 different things you know, or maybe you don't. Nobody I know prays to a statue. It is merely an image, a symbol, just like the flag.

In the Bible, statues and images were used to represent false gods. It wasn't always that people thought the wood or stone itself was a god, but worshipped the stone (or used the stone) as an indirect worship of the god. Take the Ashera poles in the book of Kings, for examples. There are many others.

The Catholics in these pics are doing the same.

Not all graven images were used to represent false gods. The serpent Moses fashioned represented Christ. The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant presumably represent cherubim. The stone tablets represent the law as written by the 'finger of God' -- the Holy Spirit.

However, what is your definition of 'worship' please?

We KNOW that Catholics all over the world bow down TO statues of Mary, not just bow down while Mary statues just "happen" to be around. Sure, a FEW Catholics might not; but it's well known that many Catholics do bow down, SPECIFICALLY to statues of Mary.

Many Catholics may choose to kneel and pray before a statue of Mary, or another saint, or a crucifix, or the tabernacle. Whom they are praying to -- not so clear. Whom they are worshipping -- pretty clear to those who care to understand.

 

[laconicstudent]

Lolz. The last desperate move of someone who can't defend their position, discredit the source.

Discrediting jesus-is-lord.com is hardly difficult. I was under the impression that there was a total ban on that pitiful little site here at CF.

Nice that you ignore the pic that had real Catholic clergy in it.

Or if that one isn't real enough:

Look who's bowing to Mary.

Or is that "made up" to?

Look, worship!

 

[narnia59]

Lolz. The last desperate move of someone who can't defend their position, discredit the source. Nice that you ignore the pic that had real Catholic clergy in it.

Or if that one isn't real enough:

Look who's bowing to Mary.

Or is that "made up" to?

Again, not a 'graven' image at all. Your point would be? Is bowing now worship? Hardly a scriptural view that it would be, but some might believe that regardless.

 

[narnia59]

Based on the godlike (or near godlike) status Catholic's have elevated Mary to, the motives of the people in those pics are clear.

If you saw pics of men throwing dollar bills at a stripper, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume those men are there to regard that woman as a sexual object? Or would you say "pfft, those men are probably throwing money to help her out with groceries"? By the arguments you've been using, it seems you'd chose the later.

Your rather 'fleshy' examples are interesting. Not applicable, but interesting where the mind goes...

Mary is not deity in the Catholic faith. Educating yourself on the beliefs of others instead of making them up as you go along would help your credibility.

 

[narnia59]

No. In summary, you guys are in denial of something you're obviously doing. Like a little kid who denies stealing cookies, though his hands and face are stained with chocolate.

Simply in denial that you have a clue regarding what the Catholic faith teaches, and what Catholics actually believe. That's all.

 

[lionroar0]

In the Bible, statues and images were used to represent false gods. It wasn't always that people thought the wood or stone itself was a god, but worshipped the stone (or used the stone) as an indirect worship of the god. Take the Ashera poles in the book of Kings, for examples. There are many others.

The Temple of Solomon.

31 For the entrance of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive wood with five-sided jambs. 32 And on the two olive wood doors he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid the cherubim and palm trees with beaten gold. 33 In the same way he made four-sided jambs of olive wood for the entrance to the main hall. 34 He also made two pine doors, each having two leaves that turned in sockets. 35 He carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers on them and overlaid them with gold hammered evenly over the carvings.

 

[shinbits]

ROFL. So basically yes, you do think you know the intent and perceptions of Roman Catholics better then they do.

Based on the evidence, I apparently do.

 

[lionroar0]

Based on the evidence, I apparently do.

More like dismissing the evidence.

 

[shinbits]

Again -- are you talking about praying to Mary, or praying to the statue? That's 2 different things you know, or maybe you don't. Nobody I know prays to a statue. It is merely an image, a symbol, just like the flag.

I'm talking about both. Both bowing to Mary or a statue of her are wrong, because of her godlike (or near godlike) status.

Not all graven images were used to represent false gods. The serpent Moses fashioned represented Christ. The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant presumably represent cherubim. The stone tablets represent the law as written by the 'finger of God' -- the Holy Spirit.

The difference is, that none of those things were prayed to, nor did they have godlike titles, like "The Queen of Heaven".

However, what is your definition of 'worship' please?

A level of reverence reserved for God.

Many Catholics may choose to kneel and pray before a statue of Mary, or another saint, or a crucifix, or the tabernacle. Whom they are praying to -- not so clear. Whom they are worshipping -- pretty clear to those who care to understand.

I actually believe that many of you may not even realize that you're worshipping Mary. It's sorta like married people who are flirtation with people other than their spouse. On some level, it's adultery. Just like married men who go to strip clubs, even though it's not "technically" adultery in that no actual sex was involved, it's still adultery, because of what's in their hearts. Sure, we can't actually say for sure what's in the hearts of these men, but most of us would agree---including most of you guys, I bet---that these men are commiting adultery in their hearts.

Likewise with Mary. I can't say for sure what's in your hearts, but just like men in stripclubs, it's a safe bet (based on their actions) that it's something adulterous; in the case of Catholics and Mary, it's cheating on God by placing worship elsewhere.

 

[shinbits]

The Temple of Solomon.

31 For the entrance of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive wood with five-sided jambs. 32 And on the two olive wood doors he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid the cherubim and palm trees with beaten gold. 33 In the same way he made four-sided jambs of olive wood for the entrance to the main hall. 34 He also made two pine doors, each having two leaves that turned in sockets. 35 He carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers on them and overlaid them with gold hammered evenly over the carvings.

so....what's your point?

 

[lionroar0]

so....what's your point?

Not every time an image was used was to focus on an idol.

 

[laconicstudent]

I'm talking about both. Both bowing to Mary or a statue of her are wrong.

Why?

The difference is, that none of those things were prayed to, nor did they have godlike titles, like "The Queen of Heaven".

So?

A level of reverence reserved for God.

Given that, what Roman Catholics do isn't worship.

I actually believe that many of you may not even realize that you're worshipping Mary.

They aren't.

Likewise with Mary. I can't say for sure what's in your hearts, but just like men in stripclubs, it's a safe bet (based on their actions) that it's something adulterous; in the case of Catholics and Mary, it's cheating on God by placing worship elsewhere.

Just like President Bush is worshiping the Pope. Its a safe bet (based on his actions) that its something adulterous; in the case of Bush and the Pope, its cheating on God by placing worship elsewhere.

 

[shinbits]

Not every time an image was used was to focus on an idol.

I never said all images were. But every image that was prayed to, always was.

 

[lionroar0]

I'm talking about both. Both bowing to Mary or a statue of her are wrong, because of her godlike (or near godlike) status.

Since the CCC says that she's not divine. It must be you who is in the wrong. Also what's godlike or near godlike status even mean?? When we are resurrected we will be like god.

And we Catholics also pay reverence to other Saints.

The difference is, that none of those things were prayed to, nor did they have godlike titles, like "The Queen of Heaven"

So Queen of Heaven is a godlike title, because.....??? You just read somewhere that it was?

A level of reverence reserved for God.

Which Catholics pay only to God. Glad we got that over with.

I actually believe that many of you may not even realize that you're worshipping Mary. It's sorta like married people who are flirtation with people other than their spouse. On some level, it's adultery. Just like married men who go to strip clubs, even though it's not "technically" adultery in that no actual sex was involved, it's still adultery, because of what's in their hearts. Sure, we can't actually say for sure what's in the hearts of these men, but most of us would agree---including most of you guys, I bet---that these men are commiting adultery in their hearts

And how are we to discern their hearts with pictures??? That's a tall order. We are just supposed to know that they are sinning from pictures?? With out talking to them and getting to know them??

I think that's rather illogical and not based on reason.

Likewise with Mary. I can't say for sure what's in your hearts, but just like men in stripclubs, it's a safe bet (based on their actions) that it's something adulterous; in the case of Catholics and Mary, it's cheating on God by placing worship elsewhere.

And now we have gone full circle in this exercise of circular thinking.

Catholics must be worshiping Mary because, that is what it looks like to you. Even though you just admitted that you don't know for sure what is in their hearts but that is what you believe, because that is what it looks like to you.

 

[shinbits]

Since the CCC says that she's not divine. It must be you who is in the wrong. Also what's godlike or near godlike status even mean?? When we are resurrected we will be like god.

Mary is sinless, according to Catholics. That puts her above the rest of humanity. Mary supposedly hears and acts on prayers. That's something God does. Catholics call her the "Queen of Heaven". A queen has rank and postion over all others who are not a king; having such a rank over others in Heaven is something a god has.

The fact that Catholics give ALL these attributes to Mary, means that Catholics have given Mary a godlike status by Catholics.
So Catholic denial means nothing when they treat her like a god.

So Queen of Heaven is a godlike title, because.....??? You just read somewhere that it was?

It's a godlike title for the same reason "King of Heaven" would be a godlike title.

Which Catholics pay only to God. Glad we got that over with.

For reasons described in the first paragraph of this post (and many other reasons as well), you pay a similar reverence to Mary.

And how are we to discern their hearts with pictures??? That's a tall order. We are just supposed to know that they are sinning from pictures?? With out talking to them and getting to know them??

I think that's rather illogical and not based on reason.

You're stifling your own reason just to win an argument and keep your falacious position. If you saw men in a strip club throwing money at a stripper, it's quite logical to discern those men have adulterous thoughts in their hearts. You can't dispute that. Thus, it is possible to tell from pics what a person's motives are.



'

And now we have gone full circle in this exercise of circular thinking.

Catholics must be worshiping Mary because, that is what it looks like to you. Even though you just admitted that you don't know for sure what is in their hearts but that is what you believe, because that is what it looks like to you.

It's only "circular reasoning" if you leave out all the reasons why that conclusion was arrived at. As it stands now, you've just purposely misquoted me, because you purposely left out all the reasons. In short, you've lied. Just like you've been doing to yourself about Catholics and Mary.