Follow Joseph Smith...

[Rescued One]

I'm talking about the efforts to degrade, offend, and destroy the Faith of "other" believers in Christ, Christ's OTHER CHILDREN.

LDS taught me that we were all children of Heavenly Father. How many Fathers do LDS have? Is Christ your Elder Brother or is he your Father?

"Jesus Christ, your Elder Brother, loves you. He has died for you. He has sacrificed his life to overcome our sins. He conquered death for each of you and every man on earth. He lives and is God of this earth."
George P. Lee, “My Heritage Is Choice,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 100

Has anyone here come close to destroying Mormonism? Has anyone come close to destroying another person's faith in Christ? Or is your faith in Mormonism that you are concerned about?

 

[Rescued One]

Here is your first statement-I believe that you are entitled to your opinion.

There is no opinion about it.

As far as I'm concerned, it is your opinion. Your leaders have taught that obedience to the commandments of the gospel are requirements for eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom.

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

Either you pulled those statements out of their larger context and ascribed a meaning other than the one intended or you didn't. It's pretty obvious that you did as those statements in section 19 were obviously directed at particular individuals and not the world in general and the other verses spoke of the commandments in general and not that Joseph Smith gave.

Joseph Smith gave the "necessary" commandments in the Doctrine and Covenants and those commandments are taught as requirements for eternal life. A list of requirements from one of the LDS manuals is:

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. We must receive the temple endowment.
. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.
. Repent of our wrongdoings.
. Live the law of chastity.
. Pay honest tithes and offerings.
. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
. Speak the truth always.
. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. Have family and individual prayers every day.
. Honor our parents.
. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. Study the scriptures.
. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47
Gospel Principles

Now several of those are commandments that Joseph Smith taught that are peculiar to the LDS church.

Your next conclusion that Joseph Smith tried to manipulate people is not acceptable at this point because you have not produced acceptable evidence to support your conclusion. Whenever investigators wish to charge someone with something, they look for motive. I do not see any motive for Joseph Smith, Jr. to try to manipulate people. He obviously believed deeply in his convictions so why would he wish to further a hoax even until his death when he must have known the end result would mean his assignment to an eternal hell.

Who said he knew his assignment would be to an eternal hell? And if he was so confident of his destiny why was he brandishing a pistol at the end of his life?

As for motive, it would be the same as many other false prophets.

Now as to pulling things out of context, try reading one of your own LDS lesson manuals and see if the verses in D&C do not apply to LDS.

What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ? The Lord has said, "If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God" (D&C 14:7).* President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).
Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47

Gospel Principles

*Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to David Whitmer, at Fayette, New York, June 1829. HC 1: 48–50

D&C 14:7 was given to David Whitmer, but, according to the lesson manual, it applies to every Latter-day Saint.

 

[Obiwan]

LDS taught me that we were all children of Heavenly Father. How many Fathers do LDS have? Is Christ your Elder Brother or is he your Father?

Boy, you all sure create some funny things in your minds.....
Read what I quoted of Mark 9, and you will understand what I meant by Christ's "other" children.

Has anyone here come close to destroying Mormonism?

Not for those of us in the know..... But, your's and others actions certainly do such to Christ's other sheep, like ravenous wolves.

Has anyone come close to destroying another person's faith in Christ?

Oh you bet..... The actions of those like you and maybe you yourself turn MUCH MORE "away" from Christ than toward. I would say only like 10% of those who leave the church that come across contra malarky actually look to another religion for answers, the rest are lost to the world. And who's the master of the world??? Satan.... Thus, contra actions are actually sending more to hell rather than heaven. Not just them, but even GENERATIONS of those after, like dominos.

Thus, I have no doubt whatsoever that yours and others actions are displeasing to God.

Or is your faith in Mormonism that you are concerned about?

haa haa..... Sorry, not in a million years. I've already been through the trial of my Faith. I did leave, but then I had the humility and Faith to come back and find out what was really true. I can never deny because of what I now know for an Assurity and in Full. And I've been on all sides, to make sure I'm not still being decieved by the doctrines of men.

But, if you all actually have any "real" claims against it, rather than your made-up ones, I would be open. However, some 17 years of reading your alls junk against us, still has yet to impress me. But, just to let you know my mind is still open since I'm a mortal, but by knowledge and the spirit, the truth is plainly evident lightyears beyond anything else. So, at this stage, I just don't see it happening given what I now know.

This is the full monty real deal..... I wouldn't be a part of it unless it fully was.

 

[Laterhosen]

"Purported" revelation - are you active LDS???

Judging from her biography, Emma had hard time (understatement of ten lifetimes) with the purported revelation, yes, and one reason for that was that her dear husband didn't even bother telling her about it for a very long time after it was purportedly revealed. Another reason was that he was "marrying" women (if you can call teenage girls women) and telling them to keep their liaisons with him secret from Emma - so how could she know? And if you think I'm making this stuff up, you are in for a rude shock. Read the book I mentioned to drsteve in my previous post and see what I mean. These LDS authors were given permission by the general authorities to access church historical archives from which they gleaned the material for their book - so don't blame me or assume it's an "anti" or "contra" (you're welcome, Obi) publication, because it is documented with page after page of serious citations taken directly from the aforementioned church archives. You've heard the expression, "Read it and weep?" That, my friend is precisely what I did in 2003, and it brought my 40 years as a faithful Latter-day Saint to a violent and painful demise.

I am human and subject to error, but I try to minimize that error in my discussion. I expect intellectual honesty of myself and those with whom I engage because without that a rational discussion is hopeless as it will lack objectivity. I am happy to consider any evidence you may have, but to do that we need to be clear as to what exactly we are talking about. Can you clearly state your conclusion with acceptable support so that we have a reasonable starting place? If you will do that, I will do my best to work through it with you.

 

[Obiwan]

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

This is called the "Law of the Harvest".....

I would recommend reading this Non-LDS treatment, one of the best on the subject.

http://bible.org/article/seven-laws-harvest

Pay particular attention to "Law 6".... That Law directly reflects the BOM verse you all are critical of.

2 Ne. 25: 23
23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo.


I would like to also note that you all never quote this verse.....

2 Ne. 10: 24
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, areconcile yourselves to the bwill of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the cgrace of God that ye are dsaved.

 

[Rescued One]

And who's the master of the world??? Satan....

"Jesus Christ, your Elder Brother, loves you. He has died for you. He has sacrificed his life to overcome our sins. He conquered death for each of you and every man on earth. He lives and is God of this earth."
George P. Lee, “My Heritage Is Choice,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 100

It seems that you are disagreeing with George P. Lee.

 

[Laterhosen]

As far as I'm concerned, it is your opinion. Your leaders have taught that obedience to the commandments of the gospel are requirements for eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom.

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."



Joseph Smith gave the "necessary" commandments in the Doctrine and Covenants and those commandments are taught as requirements for eternal life. A list of requirements from one of the LDS manuals is:

The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. We must receive the temple endowment.
. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.
. Repent of our wrongdoings.
. Live the law of chastity.
. Pay honest tithes and offerings.
. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
. Speak the truth always.
. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. Have family and individual prayers every day.
. Honor our parents.
. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. Study the scriptures.
. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47
Gospel Principles

Now several of those are commandments that Joseph Smith taught that are peculiar to the LDS church.



Who said he knew his assignment would be to an eternal hell? And if he was so confident of his destiny why was he brandishing a pistol at the end of his life?

As for motive, it would be the same as many other false prophets.

Now as to pulling things out of context, try reading one of your own LDS lesson manuals and see if the verses in D&C do not apply to LDS.

What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ? The Lord has said, "If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God" (D&C 14:7).* President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).
Gospel Principles, Exaltation, Chapter 47

Gospel Principles

*Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet to David Whitmer, at Fayette, New York, June 1829. HC 1: 48–50

D&C 14:7 was given to David Whitmer, but, according to the lesson manual, it applies to every Latter-day Saint.

I will have to get back to you when it's earlier and I can think, but just reading through this, it appears that you have shifted your focus from following Joseph Smith to living the commandments. Although the subject of this thread was nebulous to begin with, pulling statements from their larger context and adding a meaning other than that intended is a logical fallacy called improper accent. This is a logical fallacy that violates acceptability. Since your premises were unacceptable and the fact that you stated no conclusion that I could find, that pretty much leaves you with no argument. Without that we don't have the grounds to clearly know where you are coming from. For anyone to try to speak directly to your posed topic would be arbitrary.

 

[Moodshadow]

I am human and subject to error, but I try to minimize that error in my discussion. I expect intellectual honesty of myself and those with whom I engage because without that a rational discussion is hopeless as it will lack objectivity. I am happy to consider any evidence you may have, but to do that we need to be clear as to what exactly we are talking about. Can you clearly state your conclusion with acceptable support so that we have a reasonable starting place? If you will do that, I will do my best to work through it with you.

Wow - I cannot tell you how refreshing your respectful candor is, and thank you for that.

I could tell you a great deal about my conclusion, but providing "acceptable support" for you would be very difficult without going back through the book, point by point, page by page. The authors, as I stated before, did their best to present the life of Emma Smith as honestly and factually as they possibly could, with a great deal of meticulous documentation. In so doing, they related incident after incident in her life that completely destroyed my previous conviction that Joseph Smith was a righteous, humble servant of God. And no, I had not previously believed that he was a paragon of impeccable virtue, free from normal human frailties, as so many here have accused me of. But neither had I believed him to be the kind of man who would exploit other people for his own selfish purposes. Learning the truth, to put it mildly, jerked the rug out from under the center of my spiritual security and sent me reeling into a morass of misery that I never want to visit again as long as I live.

Now, back to the "acceptable support" you asked for... In order to quote chapter and verse for you, as I said, I'd have to get pretty seriously back into the book again. I'm not at all unwilling to do that, but since I don't have time to do it this weekend and I'm preparing for a weeklong trip to the other side of the country, it won't be possible for at least another ten days. In that amount of time you could acquire and read the entire book yourself, and if you have an interest in learning the truth, you would do well to do exactly that. Then, when I get back, we could truly discuss the events and ideas put forth by the authors and get each other's thoughts. I can't imagine a more productive way to have this discussion than that - can you?

 

[Rescued One]

I would like to also note that you all never quote this verse.....
2 Ne. 10: 24...

In the Book of Mormon, we read "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved." (2 Nephi 10: 24)

Please note that this verse says that after the LDS is reconciled to the will of God through his own efforts, God's grace saves him. I'm talking about what that verse actually says if you take it literally.

Everyone who has ever lived on earth will be resurrected, but those who are “reconciled unto [God] through the atonement of Christ” are the “first-fruits of Christ.” They are those who come forth in the first resurrection and inherit the celestial kingdom (see Bible Dictionary, “resurrection,” p.761 ).
Jacob 4 - Be Reconciled to God through the Atonement of Christ

We all know that, according to LDS teaching, those who inherit the celestial kingdom were/are required to keep the commandments in order to qualify for that blessing.

"But into the terrestrial will go those who do not measure up to the celestial" – Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 315

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
2 Nephi 25:23

In Mormonism, the blessing is given after obedience to the law upon which it is predicated. See the Doctrine and Covenants.

 

[Obiwan]

"Jesus Christ, your Elder Brother, loves you. He has died for you. He has sacrificed his life to overcome our sins. He conquered death for each of you and every man on earth. He lives and is God of this earth."
George P. Lee, “My Heritage Is Choice,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 100

It seems that you are disagreeing with George P. Lee.

You are confusing two different concepts...... No time to explain them to you right now, but, I would have though such was "common" knowledge? I guess not to you the mormon expert.

haa haa, quoting George P. Lee...... He's a naughty one.

 

[Rescued One]

I will have to get back to you when it's earlier and I can think, but just reading through this, it appears that you have shifted your focus from following Joseph Smith to living the commandments. Although the subject of this thread was nebulous to begin with, pulling statements from their larger context and adding a meaning other than that intended is a logical fallacy called improper accent. This is a logical fallacy that violates acceptability. Since your premises were unacceptable and the fact that you stated no conclusion that I could find, that pretty much leaves you with no argument. Without that we don't have the grounds to clearly know where you are coming from. For anyone to try to speak directly to your posed topic would be arbitrary.

Have a nice day!

 

[Obiwan]

That's one I didn't read.

Mormon Enigma isn't pretty, but I have to hand it to the authors. They worked very hard to be fair and factual and to keep their own opinions to themselves as they wrote. They truly did the world a great service when they wrote this book. Any and every person who is even remotely interested in knowing about Joseph and/or Emma Smith and/or LDS church history should read it.

If you actually did read the book, and are not simply quoting certain contra's "quotations" from it, you will first note that many of the "negative" reports they mention, they don't actually delve into all the facts related to those reports. They just allow them to stand on their own.

Thus, if you actually got a "bad" impression about Joseph from that book, it's because of the poor scholarship done on those particular subjects, not that Joseph was "bad". This is why the book itself did not bode well for most LDS in certain respects. Yes, it had a lot of good in it, but it was severly lacking in addressing the things that portrayed Joseph negatively. It was simply a book reporting "everything" related to Emma, not whether certain things were actually "factual" or not.

One other important aspect to this book is they delved deeply into RLDS documents, thus giving the RLDS "version" of history both it and Emma's contempt for Polygamy, thus they often incorrporated an inaccurate picture of Joseph in several respects.

Thus, you should learn not to willingly believe everything you read.
The books purpose wasn't to delve into the "negative" things wether they were factual or not, it was simply a book that pulled everything together that related to Emma.

That's why if you really want to understand Joseph (or any issue for that matter), you need to actually read more than one book and some contra websites to give you the facts. I myself have read over 200 books on mormonism, at least 10 on Polygamy alone (half contra half LDS). Not to mention all the LDS online and other periodicals of scholarship I've read.

Have you even done anything "close" to that??? Nope.... So, don't presume you know the "truth" about Joseph. You don't.

 

[Rescued One]

You are confusing two different concepts...... No time to explain them to you right now, but, I would have though such was "common" knowledge? I guess not to you the mormon expert.

I thought I'd pick on you since you enjoy doing that so much!


"And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day hath he spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters." (Mosiah 5:7)

 

[Moodshadow]

If you actually did read the book, and are not simply quoting certain contra's "quotations" from it, you will first note that many of the "negative" reports they mention, they don't actually delve into all the facts related to those reports. They just allow them to stand on their own. "Contra's [sic] quotations" - in a book authored by two active LDS women? You're kidding, right? After all, I could have gone straight for the Tanners or Ed Decker, if that's what I was looking for, now, couldn't I? And I saw zillions of nasty, vicious honest-to-goodness anti-Mormon websites, full of lies and half-truths - all of which I shunned like the proverbial plague because it was obvious what their agenda was. But, for the same reason, I deliberately avoided the official LDS church website and FAIRMormon. The reason I chose that book is that I wanted documented historical fact, not biased opinion, in either direction.

Thus, if you actually got a "bad" impression about Joseph from that book, it's because of the poor scholarship done on those particular subjects, not that Joseph was "bad". Sorry, Obi, you're dead wrong on this one. "Poor scholarship" does not apply to these authors or their work. (They're LDS - remember? They're on YOUR side!) This is why the book itself did not bode well for most LDS in certain respects. Here you hit the nail on the head. It "did not bode well" to such an extent that after the book came out the authors' membership was called into question by the general authorities for a time, during which they were not allowed to take the sacrament, causing them (and no doubt their families) great personal pain and humiliation. After some deliberation amongst themselves, the general authorities oh-so-graciously consented to reinstate them to full fellowship. Yes, it had a lot of good in it, but it was severly lacking in addressing the things that portrayed Joseph negatively. By "addressing" do you mean justifying? Vindicating him? Making excuses for his very un-prophet-like behavior? You're right, they didn't do that. It was a book of facts, not opinion. The authors are to be applauded that they did not offer opinions, pro or con; they merely stated the facts as they found them in their historical sources (primarily in church archives) and let the facts speak for themselves.

One other important aspect to this book is they delved deeply into RLDS documents, thus giving the RLDS "version" of history both it and Emma's contempt for Polygamy, thus they often incorrporated an inaccurate picture of Joseph in several respects. Of course they delved into the RLDS aspect; it was Emma and her son who began that movement, after all, and her biography would have been seriously lacking without it.

Thus, you should learn not to willingly believe everything you read. Ha, ha - this reminds me of your response to one of my posts a few days ago: "Pot, meet kettle."

That's why if you really want to understand Joseph (or any issue for that matter), you need to actually read more than one book and some contra websites to give you the facts. I myself have read over 200 books on mormonism, at least 10 on Polygamy alone (half contra half LDS). Not to mention all the LDS online and other periodicals of scholarship I've read.
Have you even done anything "close" to that??? Nope.... So, don't presume you know the "truth" about Joseph. You don't.

Bully for you, Obi. Just bully for you. Maybe some day I'll be as wise and educated and well-read as you. But whether I am or not, I will never, EVER employ the pseudo-word "contra," which is no more or less than a thinly-veiled attempt to circumvent CF rules, and you know it.

 

[drstevej]

Your only scriptural funtion is to defend the faith, and contend FOR the faith. The first is to respond to attacks, the second is to preserve the truth within your Faith. None of that means attacking other faiths, other Christians.

Acts 20:28-30 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
​

Paul addressed this to the Elders at Ephesus. I have been an elder for 30 years and am a Chaplain at this site.

I am responding to what I consider to be a false gospel, false prophets and false ordinances.

I am doing so within the rules and design of this forum.

My Nicene views are "orthodox" per the owner of this site. LDS theology is "unorthodox" per the owner of this site. That is why this thread is posted in the Unorthodox Forum.

This is a debate forum where the views of Unorthodox groups are allowed to be challenged (within the rules).

I urge you to forsake the distorted truths of Joseph Smith.

 

[Rescued One]

Let's see. LDS missionaries attack my faith whenever they talk about the lack of authority among non-LDS, whenever they present false doctrine, and whenever they sing the words "While they who reject this glad message, Shall never such happiness know."

 

[Moodshadow]

[Obiwan]Your only scriptural funtion is to defend the faith, and contend FOR the faith. The first is to respond to attacks, the second is to preserve the truth within your Faith. None of that means attacking other faiths, other Christians.

Acts 20:28-30 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
​

Paul addressed this to the Elders at Ephesus. I have been an elder for 30 years and am a Chaplain at this site.

I am responding to what I consider to be a false gospel, false prophets and false ordinances.

I am doing so within the rules and design of this forum.

My Nicene views are "orthodox" per the owner of this site. LDS theology is "unorthodox" per the owner of this site. That is why this thread is posted in the Unorthodox Forum.

This is a debate forum where the views of Unorthodox groups are allowed to be challenged (within the rules).

I urge you to forsake the distorted truths of Joseph Smith.

If that isn't defending the faith, someone needs to explain it to me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was a "mormon" before knowing of mormonism, because I knew the Bible and I saw that no religion actually fit what the Bible said in full, not only in full, but different beliefs therefrom, practicing some things, not practicing others, etc. etc. Thus, the answer to your question is yes..... Many out there religious or not are disatisfied with religion "because of" the fact that none really practice and believe what the Bible states.

Further, sometimes really wise Christians come very close to believing in mormonism without knowing it or believing in it. For example, C.S. Lewis was one such sage in many respects.

Also, there is no such thing as "saving faith in Joseph Smith"...... You are off in neverland if you think any such thing exists in the LDS Church. Contra-mo perversions and out of context quoting of past LDS leaders does not make such a belief.

C.S. Lewis would be doing cartwheels in his grave if he only knew how many diverse groups are now claiming him. The Catholics have actively claimed him for some time and I knew and Orthodox chap that claimed him. Now we have you, representing Mormonism, claiming him.

However, I suppose it is preferable to claim him than to attempt to claim that Ghandi would have been Mormon and that he was secretly in agreement with Mormon theology.

What next?

 

[Obiwan]

If you actually did read the book, and are not simply quoting certain contra's "quotations" from it, you will first note that many of the "negative" reports they mention, they don't actually delve into all the facts related to those reports. They just allow them to stand on their own. "Contra's [sic] quotations" - in a book authored by two active LDS women? You're kidding, right? After all, I could have gone straight for the Tanners or Ed Decker, if that's what I was looking for, now, couldn't I? And I saw zillions of nasty, vicious honest-to-goodness anti-Mormon websites, full of lies and half-truths - all of which I shunned like the proverbial plague because it was obvious what their agenda was. But, for the same reason, I deliberately avoided the official LDS church website and FAIRMormon. The reason I chose that book is that I wanted documented historical fact, not biased opinion, in either direction.

Do you ever realize what you are saying???
You say you are going to an "unbiased" source, yet, they are active LDS, which is something you discredit just a few sentences later..... Does that make sense to you???

Further, why don't you prove to me ANY example that FAIR is "biased"???
FAIR takes every single perverted claim you all make and debunks it. So, how could they not be telling the "truth" and be "biased" if they are directly addressing the negative thing and showing the FULL FACTS of that thing, the facts the contra-mo conveniently leave out?

Further, LDS scholars are no different than these two you clearly "worship". We deal with ALL THE FACTS. Funny, you seemed to have seen that contra-mormonism doesn't tell the truth, yet you now do? Such an odd life you live.

Thus, if you actually got a "bad" impression about Joseph from that book, it's because of the poor scholarship done on those particular subjects, not that Joseph was "bad". Sorry, Obi, you're dead wrong on this one. "Poor scholarship" does not apply to these authors or their work. (They're LDS - remember? They're on YOUR side!)

You need to learn to read better.....
No doubt it is a good book in many respects, but what it DOES NOT DO is actually address many of the negative claims it lists. It just reports them and leaves them unchallenged. Do you understand???

Not every book written dealves "deep" into every subject it mentions in the book. Do you understand my point???

This is why the book itself did not bode well for most LDS in certain respects. Here you hit the nail on the head. It "did not bode well" to such an extent that after the book came out the authors' membership was called into question by the general authorities for a time, during which they were not allowed to take the sacrament, causing them (and no doubt their families) great personal pain and humiliation. After some deliberation amongst themselves, the general authorities oh-so-graciously consented to reinstate them to full fellowship.

Are you really this.... well "uninformed"???
The book did not bode well because of the very point I mention.
The authors "allowed" many negative points unchallenged, thus in many instances making the Church look bad. If they had actually delved into those issues, the Church and Joseph would not have looked bad, because the FULL FACTS would have vindicated both. THAT is the point.... Are you getting it yet???

Yes, it had a lot of good in it, but it was severly lacking in addressing the things that portrayed Joseph negatively. By "addressing" do you mean justifying? Vindicating him? Making excuses for his very un-prophet-like behavior? You're right, they didn't do that. It was a book of facts, not opinion. The authors are to be applauded that they did not offer opinions, pro or con; they merely stated the facts as they found them in their historical sources (primarily in church archives) and let the facts speak for themselves.

Are you a complete not so nice person???
No, THAT IS NOT what I'm saying!!!
They DID NOT bring out the FACTS of those particular situations, which YES, would have vindicated him. They left whatever claim and charge AS IS.... That's not scholarship, that's "poor" scholarship.

All you have to do is go to FAIR for example, and they actually "delve" into most of those issues that that book "failed" to do, and show what the actual facts and truth was about those situations. It has nothing to do with "justifying" or "opinion" or otherwise. IT'S SIMPLY THE FACTS AND TRUTH!!!

Are you really not able to comprehend the difference between a drive-by quote and comment that portray's a situation a certain way, compared to a "detailed analysis" of that situation which tells the full facts and truth???

THAT is why the book was problematic.....

One other important aspect to this book is they delved deeply into RLDS documents, thus giving the RLDS "version" of history both it and Emma's contempt for Polygamy, thus they often incorrporated an inaccurate picture of Joseph in several respects. Of course they delved into the RLDS aspect; it was Emma and her son who began that movement, after all, and her biography would have been seriously lacking without it.

Actually it was Apostates from the LDS Church who began that movement, Emma just tagged along and then groomed her son to take the reins. Yes, I'm well aware of that..... My point was that they left certain RLDS claims and Emma's statements at the time again "unchallenged", thus again making Joseph and the LDS Church look worse than it actually was. Are you starting to get the picture yet???

Thus, you should learn not to willingly believe everything you read. Ha, ha - this reminds me of your response to one of my posts a few days ago: "Pot, meet kettle."

I don't believe everything I read, I read "everything" so I can actually make an informed and more importantly "accurate" judgement, rather than believe the "easy" claims by reading just a little.

That is why I know your version of mormonism is not the "true" version.....
I should know, having left the Church myself once. Do you think your arguments and views are new??? They are not, they are uninformed and simplistic.

Bully for you, Obi. Just bully for you. Maybe some day I'll be as wise and educated and well-read as you.

But whether I am or not, I will never, EVER employ the pseudo-word "contra," which is no more or less than a thinly-veiled attempt to circumvent CF rules, and you know it.

CF Rules applies to "name calling"..... The original term never was "name" calling as you all falsely believe, it was simply an "identifyer" based on certain behaviors and attitudes. Thus, I've attempted to find another identifyer. Don't blaim me for you not wanting to accept what you actually do you in spare time, and being identified by it. I freely admit I'm anti anti-mormonism. It's facinating that you all can't admit the same in relation to your activity of what you are against.

And by the way, can you PLEASE NOT reply to a post within a post..... It makes it difficult to quote. Though, I will admit the color made it easier. Anyway.

 

[Obiwan]

Acts 20:28-30 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
​

Paul addressed this to the Elders at Ephesus. I have been an elder for 30 years and am a Chaplain at this site.

I am responding to what I consider to be a false gospel, false prophets and false ordinances.

I am doing so within the rules and design of this forum.

My Nicene views are "orthodox" per the owner of this site. LDS theology is "unorthodox" per the owner of this site. That is why this thread is posted in the Unorthodox Forum.

This is a debate forum where the views of Unorthodox groups are allowed to be challenged (within the rules).

I urge you to forsake the distorted truths of Joseph Smith.

Well, aren't you special.....

You should learn to read what the scriptures actually state. It states to protect your flock. It doesn't state to attack other flocks...... Understand the subtle difference???

Further, all you have to do is look at LDS. We actually follow the scriptural commands. We defend, and we protect, but we do not attack.

Even further, you all bear false witness of mormonism in basically every case, so, I don't see how that makes you on the Lords errand.

By the way, you aren't an "Elder"...... You all just appointed yourselves that. "Real" Elders were appointed by the proper authority. Those who ordained you never had it. It's all in your own minds.....