How do we know that Jesus' face was crushed?

[IloveJesusMyFather3:16]

I hear this from a lot of Christians but don't think I have ever read it in the Bible unless I read it and interpreted it incorrectly. ?

 

[SK'sFriend]

Personally. I have never heard this. What do these people take it to mean?

 

[Criada]

I don't think that is scriptural... there are a lot of references to Jesus crushing Satan.s head, perhaps that is what they mean?

 

[Atlantians]

If you don't believe Christ's face was crushed and brutalized, you have not read your Bible.

What we do know is that his bones were unbroken. Though that may only reflect major bones, not small fractures in facial bones. His legs were not broken, which was common to do to Crucified Criminals like what two thieves endured.

Jesus was dead, so none of his bones were broken. But that doesn't mean that he didn't have broken facial bones or what have you. Nor does it mean that he did. Either way: he was marred beyond human likeness. You couldn't recognize Him.


Isaiah 52:14b-15
...his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand.

53:2-5
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (Fulfilled in Christ's ministry, not the cross Mattew 8:17); yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. healed as in restored and changed, not referring to the physical body but to the soul. The entire context demands this reading. The only reference to physical healing and suffering was fulfilled already in Mathew long before the crucification]

Mathew 26:67
Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"
Mathew 27:29-30
...and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they spit on him and took the reed and struck him on the head.

Luke 22:44;63-65
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground;

Now the men who were holding Jesus in custody were mocking him as they beat him. They also blindfolded him and kept asking him, "Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?" And they said many other things against him, blaspheming him.

Mark 14:64-65
...And they all condemned him as deserving death. And some began to spit on him and to cover his face and to strike him, saying to him, "Prophesy!" And the guards received him with blows.

Mark 15:15;17-19
and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified;

and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on him. And they began to salute him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they were striking his head with a reed and spitting on him and kneeling down in homage to him.

Note: A roman Scourging was generally so brutal and violent, victims subjected to it often died from the injuries from that alone. If you saw "The Passion of the Christ" The scourging was greatly toned down. A real scourging would have had his flesh flayed off, and some of his organs and bones exposed.

John 19:1-3
Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him. And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head and arrayed him in a purple robe. They came up to him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" and struck him with their hands.

YouTube - Carry My Cross Third Day/Passion of the Christ


Isaiah 53:6-12
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

 

[upinarms]

That's all His bones. If God say man doesn't have the right then man doesn't have the right end of story.

 

[Atlantians]

That's all His bones. If God say man doesn't have the right then man doesn't have the right end of story.

I have absolutely no idea what you are responding to or why/if you are objecting to anything I have said.

 

[upinarms]

I have absolutely no idea what you are responding to or why/if you are objecting to anything I have said.

I'm responding to the OP. As for objecting to even the question being ask hell yes!

 

[Atlantians]

I'm responding to the OP. As for objecting to ever tthe question being ask hell yes!

You are writing incoherently. You are making no sense.

If you are intoxicated or something, scripture has clear commandments relating to such things.

 

[ydouxist]

You are writing incoherently. You are making no sense.

If you are intoxicated or something, scripture has clear commandments relating to such things.

These men are not drunk as you suppose, it's only 9:30 in the morning.

 

[upinarms]

These men are not drunk as you suppose, it's only 9:30 in the morning.

And the bar's aren't open yet! You go for it Peter preach it brother.

 

[Atlantians]

These men are not drunk as you suppose, it's only 9:30 in the morning.

I don't know where you live. It is 7:42am here.

Good one though.

I will take it then that the reason upinarms has made little to no sense is simply because of exhaustion.

 

[upinarms]

Or upinarms believe what the Holy Spirit wrote about His bones and not what make thinks about it.

 

[Atlantians]

Or upinarms believe what the Holy Spirit wrote about His bones and not what make thinks about it.

Wow. I clearly defined the issues.

You have not.

All you have done is respond to an off-hand clarification I made about the proper exegesis of a passage.

And you? Your argument amounts to: You are wrong cause you are wrong, because you are wrong!

But answer me this upinarms, for that is a fitting name, when a baby is being formed in the womb and as the baby grows and adjusts to the world around them, their skull cracks and breaks as it expands and then reconnects.

When Jesus grew in his mother's womb and when he was born and grew, was scripture wrong in saying "I can count all of my bones"?

 

[ydouxist]

I don't believe the bones in the skull break, they do shift during birth do to the "soft spot." It takes a few months for the plates in the skull to fuse together.

 

[upinarms]

John 19;36 ends story.

 

[Criada]

Forgive me for asking, but why does it matter?

 

[RevKidd]

Forgive me for asking, but why does it matter?

Exactly...

Again... another pointless thread being argued by the same two people...

 

[RevKidd]

If you don't believe Christ's face was crushed and brutalized, you have not read your Bible.

What we do know is that his bones were unbroken. Though that may only reflect major bones, not small fractures in facial bones. His legs were not broken, which was common to do to Crucified Criminals like what two thieves endured.

Jesus was dead, so none of his bones were broken. But that doesn't mean that he didn't have broken facial bones or what have you. Nor does it mean that he did. Either way: he was marred beyond human likeness. You couldn't recognize Him.


Isaiah 52:14b-15
...his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand.

Doesn't mean his face was crushed and if read in it's context, I believe it metaphorical.

13 Behold, My http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-28servant will prosper, He will be high and lifted up and http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-hgreatly http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-29exalted. 14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people, So His http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-30appearance was marred more than any man And His form more than the sons of men. 15 Thus He will http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-31sprinkle many nations, Kings will http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-32shut their mouths on account of Him; For http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-33what had not been told them they will see, And what they had not heard they will understand.(NASB)

53:2-5
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (Fulfilled in Christ's ministry, not the cross Mattew 8:17); yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. healed as in restored and changed, not referring to the physical body but to the soul. The entire context demands this reading. The only reference to physical healing and suffering was fulfilled already in Mathew long before the crucification]

I agree, that this is referring to spiritual healing as this is improperly interpreted most of the time. But still, it doesn't say anything about his face being crushed.

Mathew 26:67
Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"
Mathew 27:29-30
...and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they spit on him and took the reed and struck him on the head.

Being hit in the face is different than taking a bat to the face.

Luke 22:44;63-65
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground;

Now the men who were holding Jesus in custody were mocking him as they beat him. They also blindfolded him and kept asking him, "Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?" And they said many other things against him, blaspheming him.

Being hit in the face is different than taking a bat to the face.

Mark 14:64-65
...And they all condemned him as deserving death. And some began to spit on him and to cover his face and to strike him, saying to him, "Prophesy!" And the guards received him with blows.

Still nothing about his face being crushed.


Mark 15:15;17-19
and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified;

and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on him. And they began to salute him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they were striking his head with a reed and spitting on him and kneeling down in homage to him.

Note: A roman Scourging was generally so brutal and violent, victims subjected to it often died from the injuries from that alone. If you saw "The Passion of the Christ" The scourging was greatly toned down. A real scourging would have had his flesh flayed off, and some of his organs and bones exposed.

John 19:1-3
Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him. And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head and arrayed him in a purple robe. They came up to him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" and struck him with their hands.

YouTube - Carry My Cross Third Day/Passion of the Christ


Isaiah 53:6-12
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

I appreciate the scripture... but it doesn't prove a "Crushed Face".. as you are putting forth.

Sure he was bloodied, marred, maybe even lost a few teeth.. .We don't know for sure.. but as someone already said... why does it even matter.

I am only responding because, your text don't prove anything... it's all circumstantial...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

If you don't believe Christ's face was crushed and brutalized, you have not read your Bible.

What we do know is that his bones were unbroken. Though that may only reflect major bones, not small fractures in facial bones. His legs were not broken, which was common to do to Crucified Criminals like what two thieves endured.

Jesus was dead, so none of his bones were broken. But that doesn't mean that he didn't have broken facial bones or what have you. Nor does it mean that he did. Either way: he was marred beyond human likeness. You couldn't recognize Him.


Isaiah 52:14b-15
...his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand.

53:2-5
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (Fulfilled in Christ's ministry, not the cross Mattew 8:17); yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. healed as in restored and changed, not referring to the physical body but to the soul. The entire context demands this reading. The only reference to physical healing and suffering was fulfilled already in Mathew long before the crucification]

Mathew 26:67
Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, saying, "Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?"
Mathew 27:29-30
...and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they spit on him and took the reed and struck him on the head.

Luke 22:44;63-65
And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground;

Now the men who were holding Jesus in custody were mocking him as they beat him. They also blindfolded him and kept asking him, "Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?" And they said many other things against him, blaspheming him.

Mark 14:64-65
...And they all condemned him as deserving death. And some began to spit on him and to cover his face and to strike him, saying to him, "Prophesy!" And the guards received him with blows.

Mark 15:15;17-19
and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified;

and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on him. And they began to salute him, "Hail, King of the Jews!" And they were striking his head with a reed and spitting on him and kneeling down in homage to him.

Note: A roman Scourging was generally so brutal and violent, victims subjected to it often died from the injuries from that alone. If you saw "The Passion of the Christ" The scourging was greatly toned down. A real scourging would have had his flesh flayed off, and some of his organs and bones exposed.

John 19:1-3
Then Pilate took Jesus and flogged him. And the soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head and arrayed him in a purple robe. They came up to him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" and struck him with their hands.


Isaiah 53:6-12
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

What part of the word "none" is difficult to understand?

Marred and crushed mean two different things. The word crushed can be physical and/or mental and/or emotional. In the last scripture you've quoted above you are trying to interpret it physical when to do so would go against the word "NONE". Therefore, it has to be emotional or mental.

crush

   /krʌʃ/ Show Spelled[kruhsh] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)1.to press or squeeze with a force that destroys or deforms.
2.to squeeze or pound into small fragments or particles, as ore, stone, etc.
3.to force out by pressing or squeezing; extract: to crush cottonseeds in order to produce oil.
4.to rumple; wrinkle; crease.
5.to smooth or flatten by pressure: to crush leather.
6.to hug or embrace forcibly or strongly: He crushed her in his arms.
7.to destroy, subdue, or suppress utterly: to crush a revolt.
8.to overwhelm with confusion, chagrin, or humiliation, as by argumentation or a slighting action or remark; squelch.
9.to oppress grievously.
10.Archaic. to finish drinking (wine, ale, etc.).

–verb (used without object)11.to become crushed.
12.to advance with crushing; press or crowd forcibly.

–noun13.the act of crushing; state of being crushed.
14.a great crowd: a crush of shoppers.
15.Informal. a.an intense but usually short-lived infatuation.
b.the object of such an infatuation: Who is your latest crush?

mar

   /mɑr/ Show Spelled[mahr] Show IPA
–verb (used with object),marred, mar·ring. 1.to damage or spoil to a certain extent; render less perfect, attractive, useful, etc.; impair or spoil: That billboard mars the view. The holiday was marred by bad weather.

2.to disfigure, deface, or scar: The scratch marred the table.






Origin:
bef. 900; ME merren, OE merran to hinder, waste; c. OS merrian, OHG merren to hinder, ON merja to bruise, Goth marzjan to offend

—Related formsun·marred, adjective
un·mar·ring, adjective

—Synonyms
1, 2. flaw, injure; blot. Mar, deface, disfigure, deform agree in applying to some form of injury. Mar is general, but usually refers to an external or surface injury, if it is a physical one: The tabletop was marred by dents and scratches. Deface refers to a surface injury that may be temporary or easily repaired: a tablecloth defaced by penciled notations. Disfigure applies to external injury of a more permanent and serious kind: A birthmark disfigured one side of his face. Deform suggests that something has been distorted or internally injured so severely as to change its normal form or qualities, or else that some fault has interfered with its proper development: deformed by an accident that had crippled him; to deform feet by binding them.


—Antonyms






​

Bones do not have to be broken in order to mar.

 

[Atlantians]

Forgive me for asking, but why does it matter?

Exactly...

Again... another pointless thread being argued by the same two people...

It doesn't matter. I am as confused as you.
This fellow has missed the entire point of my post in favour about nitpicking about an off-topic comment made as a side-note and having little to do with my actual point:
Jesus was physically brutalized.
His face was beaten to a pulp, as was the rest of Him.
This is obvious in scripture.

My side-note was simply to mention that on the off-chance that if one of the guard's cracked His jaw or something, that doesn't invalidate the scriptures at all because that prophesy was point to the cross and how the soldiers don't break his legs.

I appreciate the scripture... but it doesn't prove a "Crushed Face".. as you are putting forth.

Sure he was bloodied, marred, maybe even lost a few teeth.. .We don't know for sure.. but as someone already said... why does it even matter.

I am only responding because, your text don't prove anything... it's all circumstantial...

Ok, I think we are simply having a confusion of semantics.

All I was saying was that Jesus' face was pulverized by the beatings and the like. He was thoroughly brutalized. That was the extent of my point.

The scripture does say he was 'crushed'
"Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him"

That is the extent of what I was saying.

I may have misinterpreted the OP's question.

I was only trying to state that He was wholly crushed.
His face wasn't somehow sparred from all the brutalizing.

What part of the word "none" is difficult to understand?

The part where I used it or it has relevance to anything said here.

Marred and crushed mean two different things. The word crushed can be physical and/or mental and/or emotional.

In English. The context of the passage dictates an understanding of shame and physical destruction.

In the last scripture you've quoted above you are trying to interpret it physical when to do so would go against the word "NONE".

I believe the prophesy was "I can number all of my bones".

Therefore, it has to be emotional or mental.

Not if your english definition bellow means anything.
–verb (used with object)1.to press or squeeze with a force that destroys or deforms.

crush

   /krʌʃ/ Show Spelled[kruhsh] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)1.to press or squeeze with a force that destroys or deforms.
2.to squeeze or pound into small fragments or particles, as ore, stone, etc.
3.to force out by pressing or squeezing; extract: to crush cottonseeds in order to produce oil.
4.to rumple; wrinkle; crease.
5.to smooth or flatten by pressure: to crush leather.
6.to hug or embrace forcibly or strongly: He crushed her in his arms.
7.to destroy, subdue, or suppress utterly: to crush a revolt.
8.to overwhelm with confusion, chagrin, or humiliation, as by argumentation or a slighting action or remark; squelch.
9.to oppress grievously.
10.Archaic. to finish drinking (wine, ale, etc.).

–verb (used without object)11.to become crushed.
12.to advance with crushing; press or crowd forcibly.

–noun13.the act of crushing; state of being crushed.
14.a great crowd: a crush of shoppers.
15.Informal. a.an intense but usually short-lived infatuation.
b.the object of such an infatuation: Who is your latest crush?

mar

   /mɑr/ Show Spelled[mahr] Show IPA
–verb (used with object),marred, mar·ring.1.to damage or spoil to a certain extent; render less perfect, attractive, useful, etc.; impair or spoil: That billboard mars the view. The holiday was marred by bad weather.

2.to disfigure, deface, or scar: The scratch marred the table.






Origin:
bef. 900; ME merren, OE merran to hinder, waste; c. OS merrian, OHG merren to hinder, ON merja to bruise, Goth marzjan to offend

—Related formsun·marred, adjective
un·mar·ring, adjective

—Synonyms
1, 2. flaw, injure; blot. Mar, deface, disfigure, deform agree in applying to some form of injury. Mar is general, but usually refers to an external or surface injury, if it is a physical one: The tabletop was marred by dents and scratches. Deface refers to a surface injury that may be temporary or easily repaired: a tablecloth defaced by penciled notations. Disfigure applies to external injury of a more permanent and serious kind: A birthmark disfigured one side of his face. Deform suggests that something has been distorted or internally injured so severely as to change its normal form or qualities, or else that some fault has interfered with its proper development: deformed by an accident that had crippled him; to deform feet by binding them.

—Antonyms

You realize that Isaiah was translated from Hebrew right?
And the entire semantical domain of the English word a foreign term is translated as has little bearing on the meaning of that word in a particular text, right?
This is basic hermenuetics.

Context, Context, Context.

Where in "But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace," is mere emotional or mental anguish?
Sure that must have existed as well. But the text is obviously referring to the physical.

And the Hebrew word from whence it was translated largely only has physical ideas in its semantical domain anyway.

I really don't see the point to your argument. It is obviously false, if words have meaning at all.

Bones do not have to be broken in order to mar.

​

Bones do not have to be broken in order to "crush" either.

I don't believe the bones in the skull break, they do shift during birth do to the "soft spot." It takes a few months for the plates in the skull to fuse together.

Hmm, really? That is interesting. I was under the impression they fractured and then again fused as the head slowed in expansion.