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Creation or Evolution

WingsOfEagles07

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I am sorry I have not been on for a long time, but I am going to be getting back to daily messages on the Origins debate. Okay, where to start.

I believe in Creation -- literal 6 days by GOD! I do not understand how evolution can be true after studying Creation and Evolution both. Evolution has so many fallacies and arbitrary assumptions without any justification. Who here believes in Creation or Evolution? I may have to get to reknow everyone here. lol.
 

driewerf

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I am sorry I have not been on for a long time, but I am going to be getting back to daily messages on the Origins debate. Okay, where to start.

I believe in Creation -- literal 6 days by GOD! I do not understand how evolution can be true after studying Creation and Evolution both. Evolution has so many fallacies and arbitrary assumptions without any justification. Who here believes in Creation or Evolution? I may have to get to reknow everyone here. lol.
What exactly are the fallacies, according to you?
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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////////////What exactly are the fallacies, according to you?/////////////

The fallacies are not according to me, they are fallacies that exist. I mean take for example of the fact that we do not know that we have evolved billions of years ago. Everytime I ask for the documented facts of the supposed billions of transitional fossils that are supposedly to exist but if you look on wikipedia in which people show me, the pictures of them are computer generated or drawings not pictures of the real existing fossils that are "told" to be real. How can anyone know we evolved if there was no one there in the beginning to see it? Evolutionists arbitrarily make up information without having a basis for justifying that with their senses which makes them inconsistent within their worldview. You cannot prove that by showing the mutations happening in the genetic code "today" would be the same as billions of years ago. I also, would like to ask anyone who can prove abiogenesis how the first organism could eat and find food if there was nothing to eat. If it did eat then how did it eat and what? How did the organism know what to look for if the eyes of every organism also evolved itself without having a justified basis because the brain also evolved making knowledge impossible for any living organism? I could go on with more in-depth stuff, this is just like the surface of what I know, I have to go its a school night. On Friday, I will be able to talk more than usual if anyone is willing to post. Thank You! And on Friday according to anyone's post, I will provide a more vivid description of what I know according to the post of someone who is against Creation. God Bless You!

Matthew
 
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mark kennedy

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I am sorry I have not been on for a long time, but I am going to be getting back to daily messages on the Origins debate. Okay, where to start.

I believe in Creation -- literal 6 days by GOD! I do not understand how evolution can be true after studying Creation and Evolution both. Evolution has so many fallacies and arbitrary assumptions without any justification. Who here believes in Creation or Evolution? I may have to get to reknow everyone here. lol.

Hi Matthew, I'm Mark, Luke and John must be posting to another forum ;). Anyway, I've spent a lot of time pouring over the actual scientific literature and the a priori assumption of universal common ancestry come before everything else in TOE. I'm a Young Earth Creationist based on two things, one is the New Testament witness confirming the special creation of Adam and Eve as our first parents. The second is the fact that the human brain had neither the time nor the means to have evolved from that of apes.

A few key things have made the fallacious nature of TOE as natural history evident and obvious for me. One is the fact that chimpanzee ancestors are absent in the fossil record, if they were not alive today we wouldn't even know from secular sourced they even existed. The reason is that every time a chimpanzee skull is uncovered in Africa it's celebrated as one of our ancestors.

For me, the heart of the emphasis is on the homology arguments, because we are so close to chimpanzees the only explanation is that we have a common ancestor. I wouldn't have such a problem with it if they allowed the inverse logic. If things in common make such a good argument for common ancestry then the differences should be a basis for counter arguments. They simply refuse to accept that common ancestry is falsifiable. Talk Origins did hosted a debate based on key points that could conceivably falsify TOE and common ancestry. I could easily falsify evolution based on at least two of their criteria.

I don't want to dump the truck on you right now. I'm glad you decided to start posting here again and I look forward further exchanges.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Biblewriter

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I am a creationist because the scriptures explicitly state not only that God created the earth, but that He made it fit for man in only six days. They say that He first formed the man and then made him alive. And they say that he created the first woman from a rib taken out of the first man.

Jesus said, if ye believe not Moses, how shall ye believe my words?

I am also a creationist because I am a scientist. I have examined the TOE in great detail and find it lacking on almost every front.

The scientific method is:

1 Examine the facts and develop a theory to explain the facts. Evolution indeed does this. But this is where evolution stops being scientific. because step 2 of the scientific method is:

2 Develop an experiment to test whether or not the theory is correct. Evolution is untested and untestable.

Here I need to note that evolutionists repeatedly claim to have tested certain portions of the theory, but the portions that have been so tested are so small as to be insignificant to the overall picture. They recently (from my perspective, for I am an old man) re-defined evolution from its old sense of all life forms coming from a common origin to a change in the distribution of alles in a population. But this is a farce. This new definition does not even require the development of a single new species to demonstrate that evolution has occurred. The excuse given for this is that the development of new species takes too long, but this is how they develop. But this is elliptical logic. It is proved by the fact that we know it is true. And how do we know it is true? because the only alternative is creation, which we know cannot be true. And how do we know it cannot be true? Because that would require a God, and we know that there is no God, so we know evolution is true.

We do not need to go into the rest of the scientific method, for evolution breaks down here. It is not science. It is a religious belief held by most of those who call themselves scientists.

Why do I call it a religious belief? Because it is a belief about God. The belief that He does not exist. I also call it that because it is held with all the fervor of a religious belief, including anger at those who disagree and a widespread attempt to silence debate on the subject.

No one gets angry at someone who does not believe Newton's laws. They just laugh at him. No one tries to silence those who do not believe the earth is round. They know that such are fools that are not worth the trouble. But deny evolution in the scientific world, and watch your back! They will come after you.

Evolutionists have repeatedly tried to get creationists fired. (I was personally forced to sign a paper recognizing that I had been warned that I would be fired if I shared my faith with anyone. But they cannot fire me now, for I am retired.) They sue in court to prevent creationists from presenting their views. And they have repeatedly called for boycotts against publishers that produce books questioning their theory. These are the behaviors of religious advocates, not scientists.
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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I would post in the OT forum, but I do not know what the OT forum is since I have not been on here in a while. I used to post everyday but I have had loads of Homework, track practice, church, and tons of other stuff. But I decided to fit time to post some. =]

Mark, I like your post. I wish to know more about what you know. Same thing with Biblewriter. Both of you have really good information that I can use. The things I will post later today in which will probably be im going to estimate maybe 8-9:00 P.M. Eastern Time in the US. I mostly know how Evolution is inconsistent within their beliefs by the preconditions of intelligibility. I know countless problems with the Big-bang and abiogenesis, along with problems as to how we could not have evolved. That is what my post will be on tonight, you all have helped me before with the actual scientific aspect of how evolution is falsifiable. Thank You! I will post later tonight! God Bless You!

Matthew
 
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Mallon

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The OT forum is the origins theology forum. This creationist subforum is a part of the origins theology forum. You can get back to the origins theology forum via the links up top.
I hope you'll post your evidences there, WingsofEagles07, so that we can discuss them in an open manner, the way science is supposed to be conducted. As it is, we're not allowed to disagree with anti-evolutionary creationism in this subforum.
 
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driewerf

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////////////What exactly are the fallacies, according to you?/////////////

The fallacies are not according to me, they are fallacies that exist. I mean take for example of the fact that we do not know that we have evolved billions of years ago. Everytime I ask for the documented facts of the supposed billions of transitional fossils that are supposedly to exist but if you look on wikipedia in which people show me, the pictures of them are computer generated or drawings not pictures of the real existing fossils that are "told" to be real.
Really?
Here are some tranistional fossils: (use the links in the article for more details.
List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One of the latest important findings, Tiktaalik Rosaea
Tiktaalik roseae: Home

How can anyone know we evolved if there was no one there in the beginning to see it?
How can someone find a murderer when there were no witnesses (and the suspected lies)? By looking at the evidence left. We see today still the remnants of the past, in the fossil record, but also in the geographical distribution of species and in the genetic patern of now living species. Even in our own bodies we have remnants of evolution.
Etc. More to come later.
 
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Biblewriter

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Really?
Here are some tranistional fossils: (use the links in the article for more details.
List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One of the latest important findings, Tiktaalik Rosaea
Tiktaalik roseae: Home


How can someone find a murderer when there were no witnesses (and the suspected lies)? By looking at the evidence left. We see today still the remnants of the past, in the fossil record, but also in the geographical distribution of species and in the genetic patern of now living species. Even in our own bodies we have remnants of evolution.
Etc. More to come later.

Even if these species actually existed, which is questionable considering the number of "transitional" fossil finds demonstrated in the past to have been fraudulent, they would prove nothing.

To demonstrate the gradual transition from even one genera to another, would require the finding of literally hundreds of transitional forms. not two or three, as even the best case scenarios contain.

The claim that structural, and even DNA similarities prove ancestral commonality can indeed be rationally argued. But such similarities can just as rationally be argued to demonstrate a common intelligent designer.

The only way to "prove" evolution is to start with the assumption that there was not an intelligent designer who created all this. Without this unprovable assumption, none of the evidence presented proves evolution.

To use your murder metaphor, the demonstration of even one plausible scenario that did not include the suspect, blows the entire case.

The existence of an intelligent creator is plausible to many, and implausible to others. but until you can logically rule out the plausibility of an intelligent designer, you do not have even the beginnings of a case. It all comes down to whose word you choose to believe. You choose to believe the word of scientists. But the recent flap over climategate has demonstrated to the entire world that "science" involves willful hiding of information that does not support the theory being advocated, and widespread attempts to silence the voices of opponents, even to the extent of successfully calling for the firing of anyone who dares to publish information contrary to their agenda. Those who have not been involved in the creation vs evolution debate were surprised by this evidence. But we active creationists were not. We have long witnessed, and been personally subjected to, this same prejudice and this same widespread attempt to silence our voices.

I had a university professor who publicly denounced me for openly stating that I did not believe in evolution, while privately confiding to his own lab assistant (who I happened to be dating) that evolution was actually not a very good explanation of the facts, it was just the best one they had.

My brother was taught the theory of recapitulation in beginning biology. In advanced embryology, he was taught that "actually, this is outside of the facts." The thing that particularly disgusted him was that in both cases, the professor who taught him these things was the same person! As a beginning student, this professor taught him that this proves evolution, and as an advanced student, the very same professor taught him that this was not true.

In my private studies, I ran across repeated calls to boycott certain publishers because they had published books questioning the theory of evolution. And I was personally required to sign a statement that I realized that I would be fired if I shared my faith with anyone even remotely connected with my employment. So I personally know that the pronouncements of "science" are not reliable.

But I find the word of God, the Bible, absolutely reliable.
 
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RANGER65

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Just a few points. First, to believe in evolution without all of the smoke and mirrors and oh yeah the BIG BANG....you must first believe that an inanimate object can produce an aniamte object....hmmmmm...don't think so pal.

Next, If evolution (Darwinism) is true then you would agree that lizards evolved into birds. #1. feel free to show me a skeleton of a lizard with wings. Oh yeah....there should be millions of these remains laying around, yet not one has ever been produced. #2. If natural selection controlled evolution, tell me what was the tactical benefit of a lizard running around dragging half grown wings? Would that not make it more vulnerable? Theory disproved.

Every one of Darwins evolutionary men have been debunked. Ex. Java man was later discovered to have been theorized from a single toothe. The toothe was later discovered to have been that of an extinct pig. Go figure.

To the Young Earthers: Sorry. Adam and Eve were asked to replenish (refill) the Earth. If you study the descriptions of the flood in the bible you will find that there were two floods not one. Look in Jeremiah. One flood killed everything including animals and plant life (Satan's flood) and one did not (Noah's flood). One was obviously before Adam and Eve and one after.
There was a PreAdam world. Science and Theology have more to agree upon than they think.:idea:
 
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laconicstudent

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Just a few points. First, to believe in evolution without all of the smoke and mirrors and oh yeah the BIG BANG....you must first believe that an inanimate object can produce an aniamte object....hmmmmm...don't think so pal.

Evolution and the Big Bang have nothing to do with one another. Neither theory addresses the other. Just fyi, one can believe in one and not the other, they don't go hand-in-hand.
 
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gluadys

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Every one of Darwins evolutionary men have been debunked. Ex. Java man was later discovered to have been theorized from a single toothe. The toothe was later discovered to have been that of an extinct pig. Go figure.

This is incorrect. Here are the fossils of Java Man (which is a legitimate fossil of Homo erectus) and includes several teeth as well as a skullcap and femur.


Pithecanthropus-erectus.jpg



The fossil you are referring to was Nebraska Man. That fossil tooth was discovered by an amateur geologist and Nebraska Man was "reconstructed" from it by a journalist and an artist. Unlike Piltdown Man, it was not a hoax (a term that implies deliberate deceit) but merely premature misidentification that got hyped up by overeager wishes to find a primitive hominid fossil in the Americas. The error was discovered and corrected several months later when the fossil was carefully examined by paleontologists at the university to which it was sent.


There are actually only about three major hoaxes relating to evolution.

Piltdown man: a faked fossil planted by an unknown person in 1912 (though strong suspicion falls on the original "discoverer") and exposed in 1953

Haekel's inaccurate drawings of embryos

Archeoraptor: a faked feathered dinosaur fossil consisting of two legitimate partial fossils fitted together by Chinese peasants to simulate a more valuable complete fossil and sold to a journalist. This was exposed in a matter of days when viewed by paleontologists. It probably would not have made history had it not been featured in National Geographic.
 
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mark kennedy

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Just a few points. First, to believe in evolution without all of the smoke and mirrors and oh yeah the BIG BANG....you must first believe that an inanimate object can produce an aniamte object....hmmmmm...don't think so pal.

I believe in the big bang, God spoke and *bang*, there it was.

Next, If evolution (Darwinism) is true then you would agree that lizards evolved into birds. #1. feel free to show me a skeleton of a lizard with wings. Oh yeah....there should be millions of these remains laying around, yet not one has ever been produced. #2. If natural selection controlled evolution, tell me what was the tactical benefit of a lizard running around dragging half grown wings? Would that not make it more vulnerable? Theory disproved.

Reptiles growing features are really not that far fetched, I don't think there is a shred of credible evidence from Biology or Genetics indicating it's possible but not out of bounds to speculate. What would be a huge giant leap that would allow no room for gradual transitions is the transition from an avian bellows lungs to a diaphragm style lung. See this is the whole problem with evolution in the first place, major transitions require major overhauls of highly conserved organs and their requisite genes and molecular mechanisms.

Every one of Darwins evolutionary men have been debunked. Ex. Java man was later discovered to have been theorized from a single toothe. The toothe was later discovered to have been that of an extinct pig. Go figure.

No actually it was a partial skull cap and a leg bone found 50 feet apart. You are thinking about Nebraska man if memory serves. Java man was an early invention of the oldest apeman transitional 'proof'. Later the Homo erectus fossils, some human some ape, would weave the myth into a more tangible transitional. It's a classic distortion of the evidence but the Asian fossils have long been known for highly fragmentary fossils. They have given way to chimpanzee fossils discovered in Africa being paraded as our ancestors.

To the Young Earthers: Sorry. Adam and Eve were asked to replenish (refill) the Earth. If you study the descriptions of the flood in the bible you will find that there were two floods not one. Look in Jeremiah. One flood killed everything including animals and plant life (Satan's flood) and one did not (Noah's flood). One was obviously before Adam and Eve and one after.
There was a PreAdam world. Science and Theology have more to agree upon than they think.:idea:

Whoa! Hang on there, could you give me a chapter and verse on that? I'm aware of the word in Genesis 'fill' that means to 'replenish'. I've long suspected that one word was responsible for a now defunct form of creationism called catastrophism. I'll thumb through Jeremiah but it would be really helpful if you could give me the reference.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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iambeeman

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Great thread.

I'm strictly a layman and am not very good with books (ADHD or what ever the latest pc term is) but I love science and most times find creation looks more plausible.

glaudys- that pic you provided appears to be a drawing, is there any photos, or is that the only evidence? If that's all there is it could be similar to Haekel's fraudulent drawings.
 
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Calypsis4

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Hi Matthew, I'm Mark, Luke and John must be posting to another forum ;). Anyway, I've spent a lot of time pouring over the actual scientific literature and the a priori assumption of universal common ancestry come before everything else in TOE. I'm a Young Earth Creationist based on two things, one is the New Testament witness confirming the special creation of Adam and Eve as our first parents. The second is the fact that the human brain had neither the time nor the means to have evolved from that of apes.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Amen.

The theo/evo method of convincing people of 'theistic evolution'...


"The evidence is what I say it is...and any evidence that don't fit I eliminate!"​
 
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Greg1234

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I am sorry I have not been on for a long time, but I am going to be getting back to daily messages on the Origins debate. Okay, where to start.

I believe in Creation -- literal 6 days by GOD! I do not understand how evolution can be true after studying Creation and Evolution both. Evolution has so many fallacies and arbitrary assumptions without any justification. Who here believes in Creation or Evolution? I may have to get to reknow everyone here. lol.

I personally classify them in three categories or theories. The first is "Darwinism". This is where you'll find the strongest fundamentalism: the staunch adherence to random mutations and indefinite adaptation way beyond its time.

Then there is a movement further up the rack to "Evolutionism". Here the intelligent mechanism in adaptation is recognized and random mutations are generally to fully relinquished. But the idea of infinitude is retained though not to a strong degree. Fundamentalism is not as strong and you will find a good portion of the data which Creationists use actually come from evolutionists.

Then there is one where random mutations are generally relinquished as a viable method for adaptation. The intelligent mechanism at work is also recognized and implemented in analysis. Here the limits revealed are fully implemented (though the data on these boundaries are slowly becoming apparent in Evolutionism). This one is called "Creationism". The arguments against Creationism are generally presented based on data affirming Creationism as outlined.

Movement among the theories from top to down is as a slow and gradual process from the simple to the more complex. And as you can see everyone of them recognizes adaptation. But its important to note that the Darwinists have hijacked adaptation and it is generally now known as evolution. So your question will sound like, "who here believes in Creation or adaptation?" "...Creation or Darwinism?" will yield less dodging and dancing.
 
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teejayinau

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I will say I am a young earth creationist, however the bible does not give us exact dates on when the world was created (Ussher's date and others are estimates). On this issue I thinking more along the theology than the science, since the bible is not a science textbook as such).

I would agree broadly with what Southern Baptist Seminary Albert Mohler has to say on this subject. When he gave a speech to the Ligonier Ministries 2010 National Conference. There is a transcript of the talk on his website.
 
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