Originally posted by angelmom01;54616157
Lulav: So now you must ask yourself and examine the Torah and the prophets as a good scholar would and see what has been fulfilled and what has not.
AM:True! Even Jesus, when he stood to read the Psalms, did not read the whole passage. Could it be that the time had come for only one portion of the prophesy to be fulfilled?
Exactly!
And he said to them what he had read had been fulfilled in their very sight. But the part he did not read has yet to still be fulfilled by him.
Lulav:According to Peter who was commissioned directly by Jesus to be the head of his earthly body and to make what is called Halakcha, which means the way to walk or the way to follow the commandments, which is what Jesus was doing a big part of the time on earth.
AM:This BODY has only ONE HEAD, Lulav. And it is not Peter. Christ is THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH... even THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN.
Sorry, I think you are maybe confused about the Hebrew understanding of this? Yes, the Body of Messiah has one Head, that Head is in Heaven. You don't have to shout at me , I understand you are zealous for the truth, so am I more than most know. But I go by the words of Jesus himself and Understand them in the context they were given in. First let's get back to Joseph. Do you remember the story how the Pharaoh, who considered himself God put Joseph in charge of all he had? Do you remember how he told the people that when you see him, you are to treat him as if you had seen me myself? This was a picture of the True G-d and his son.
Pharaoh = True G-d
Joseph = Messiah, son of G-d
Now Jesus was the representation of G-d in Heaven, here on earth as was Joseph the representation of Pharaoh amongst the people but in his palace.
Now before Jesus left, he choose someone to put in charge over his body, in a person. Jesus was a Rabbi, in fact he was 'The Rabbi'. Now he did not give that title to Peter because he taught them to call no man Rabbi, only he was their Rabbi, their teacher. But, he did give him one of the duties, privileges what ever you want to call it, that Rabbis of that day and still today have, that of making what we call Halakah. Literally interpreted it means the Way to walk. It means how to do the instructions given by G-d in the right way. That is why he said to him:
Matthew 16:19 This binding and loosing are terms used to describe a Rabbi's job or authority to make Halakah. Of course after the L-RD sent his Holy Spirit, this is what guided Peter to do this, as he did not make halakah of his own accord, but prayed so that the Messiah's will would be done.
The Rabbi (Jesus) was gone, and there needed to be someone to turn to when a doctrinal question came up. Jesus left Peter in charge of this, he said it himself and it is proper Jewish custom. True it was later taken away from the Jews and twisted and tainted from it's true meaning but that was how it started. That is why you see Peter at the believers headquarters in Jerusalem he didn't go back to fishing, he had a new job.
Lulav: According to this Peter, Shimon, he tells us through the words to the Jews on Pentecost that they needed to repent and turn back to G-d so that their sins would be forgiven when the "times of refreshing come".
AM: And then the Holy Spirit was poured upon all those who believed, no?
Yes, but this was not the time, they were being told by Peter to turn back to G-d fully, to repent, to accept the atonement Jesus had made for their sins. Atonement means to cover, not take away. Our sins will be taken away when all is made new, and that means that sin will no longer exist, no temptation, but pure as the L-RD made Adam and Eve to start with.
Lulav:For Jesus said:
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil . 18 For verily I say unto you, Till * heaven and earth pass , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till * all be fulfilled .
AM:
This was spoken BEFORE Christ was crucified and FULFILLED THE LAW, was it not?
No, that is what this whole thread is about. He came in the flesh at that time to fulfill what had been written about him pertaining to that time. But like you saw, in that Isaiah passage when he was reading in the synagogue that he did not finish the reading. And the Day of the L-RD has not come yet. Just as he came the first time as the the lamb, the second time he will come as the majestic Lion! But the first time he did not fulfill that, nor has he yet. So all is not fulfilled.
Lulav:But we can see from above from what Peter said, that not all was fulfilled yet, not even our sins being blotted out yet. They have been covered, but not blotted out. There is a difference.
An example of something that Jesus did not fulfill of the prophets because it wasn't directly about him and it was not he who could fulfill it, is this, found in Acts 1, again we see Peter who has the understanding of what his friend and Lord was teaching while he traveled with him day and night for three and a half years. That they needed to attend to fulfilling scripture concerning Judas.
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said , (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) 16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled , which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
AM:And it was fulfilled, no?
It was fulfilled but not by him or not by him dying on the cross. this is what I've been trying to say. And there are still many things that need to be fulfilled and not until they are all fulfilled with the Torah be destroyed.
Lulav:And we see the Peter realizes that the scripture below needs to be fulfilled regarding this:
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein * : and his bishoprick let another take .
Then they choose from among all those who have been eye-witnesses to the L-rds ministry and choose two men. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit Mattathias is chosen to replace Judas. Now that scripture in the Psalms is fulfilled.
AM:
So your point is that
not all things were fulfilled "by Jesus on the cross"; that other prophesies still needed to be fulfilled even after the cross.... and even now some remain to be fulfilled?
Exactly!
I would not disagree with that... but how does that show that THE LAW is not "done away in Christ", just the scriptures so state? What does that have to do with other prophesies being fulfilled or when/how they are fulfilled?
The Torah which many refer to as the Law, still has prophecies in it not fulfilled. What was fulfilled by the crucifixion is that a true spotless lamb, the lamb of G-d promised to come, to Abraham (this is how Abraham saw Jesus day as he speaks of in the Gospel of John) shed his blood, to cover our sins, and our debt to the consequences of breaking the law of G-d was paid. For those who believed of course.
Lulav: But there are many more, in the prophets and also the Torah that have not.
There are many prophecies in the book of Genesis which haven't been fulfilled and we see by the Prophet Isaiah of when they will be.
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. Isa 46:10
AM: So you don't see a difference between "the law" and "prophesies"?
Yes there is a difference, of course but if we are using the measuring stick that Jesus gave to tell us when they would be done away with we can't make a distinction in this case.
As you can see by this quote from Matthew 5 he is grouping them together here speaking of doing away with them. So here he sees them as a unit. Which is true in a sense. There would be no reason for prophets if all was followed in the Torah. Also Jesus is spoken of in both the Torah and the Prophets which does also include the Psalms too.
LULAV:All has not been fulfilled so the Torah has not been dissolved, demolished, or annulled according to the one who wrote it and said this.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil . 18 For verily I say unto you, Till * heaven and earth pass , one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till * all be fulfilled .
Destroy = dissolve, demolish, annul.
AM:The fact that not all PROPHESIES have been fulfilled (every tear has not yet been dried, for example... God is not "all in all" for example) wouldn't negate THE LAW OF MOSES from being fulfilled.... it being A SHADOW of BETTER THINGS TO COME (Christ).
Is Christ not come?
He has come once, but promised to come again. At that time all will be fulfilled.
[Can I request, again, that you not put your scriptures in quotes if you want them addressed? Anything in quotes does not carry over when someone replies to your post. You can indent them and get almost the same result as you do when quoting them - just without the "quote" indicator. Obviously you have your own posting style and this is only a request, but it would make it much easier for others to address them. Otherwise they don't stay with the quoted post and you have to go back to get them which you cannot always do if your reply is not on the same page of the thread. Thanks!]
I heard you the first time. However this is the way I've always posted to this board. When Erwin was here he had a different quoting system that would put the quotes in a little box. I don't care for this system but have made over 30,000 posts since being a member here for almost 10 years (I had a different account when I joined before, now defunct) and some habits are hard to break. I will try to use the indent feature, but please bear with me while I try to get the hang of it. Once you get past fifty, technical things don't 'click' as quickly as they used to!
(I'm sure you've heard Two Jews, three opinions!).
