Understanding

[sjdean]

I won't bore you with all the detail, but I come to the conclusion that we are wrong if we think we should be continually trying to convert people.

Conversion, comes as a softening of the heart and opening of the mind.

I think there is something in Mark 4 to this point. Before I joined the Church, I too was cynical and turned my back on God until, and I think the only way I can describe this, is he plucked me out from among others and opened my mind.

You do not fully understand faith and religion until you have crossed that line, which probably is baptism and confirmation. It's hard to understand when you're on the outside with a closed mind.

My final thought: science to me seems only of a way of explaining what we see. Things like gravity, dark flow, and dark matter, are recent examples of things we couldn't see. Just why do we have so much faith in science then? Just because we don't see God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Cya
Simon

 

[YoDude]

We can plant seeds by the way we live, as an example to the world, but they should at least know why we are happy - it is because we are saved. I agree that we should not beat people over the head, but if the Spirit calls for you to express your faith, then don't hold back, don't underestimate how God can use us as an instrument to bring others to him. Yes, it is God who does the converting, but God called us to share the good news as well, perhaps simply planting seeds, but it all comes from the Lord.

 

[Peripatetic]

We can plant seeds

I agree - some people try to convert by brute force convincing but that may not work (or even worsen their opinion of Christians). I do believe that all hardened hearts have a window of opportunity at some point in their lives, but it may not line up with our schedules. I think that's a big part of the gift of evangelism... they don't necessarily do it "better". My belief is that the Holy Spirit brings these people together with people at just the right time when their heart can be open to hearing God's word.

But anyone can plant seeds, both with words and actions. You may never know if they grow, but some will... maybe even years later. I like the idea of helping someone find God without getting any credit.

 

[tulipbee]

... Conversion, comes as a softening of the heart and opening of the mind.

When God's Word describes us as "slaves
to sin" ( Romans 6:6 & 15 NASB, NIV ),
what it's talking about is that Sin Nature.
It means that -while we have choice- the
only choice we'll make is in favor of
sin, self, and Satan !

Hence: We have will but NOT "free will".
We have choice yet ~not~ "free choice".

God doesn't limit our choice ...our own
evil and corrupted hearts limit our choice.
We act out of our nature. A sin nature.

This being why -outside of the regeneration
of the Holy Spirit- we can't even "see" the
Kingdom of God (John 3:3 NASB, NIV,
NKJ) ...much less choose it !

Therefore, while people ~could~ be saved
entirely by a decision of their unassisted
will, they WON'T.

The Most High has to supernaturally
regenerate (make Born Again) a person.
And ...while He calls "many"... only a
"few" are chosen by Him for this
(Matthew 22:14 NASB, NKJ, NRSV,
KJV, TLB).

Regeneration (being Born Again) ~must~,
then, precede conversion (repenting and
believing).

God Chooses
Us, We DON'T
Choose Him !

 

[tulipbee]

Conversion v. Regeneration
There is a tendency to confuse Regeneration
with Conversion.

Moreover, there are other important differences
between the two. But, first, it would be helpful
to define our terms:

Regeneration is a new birth of a person, opening
his spiritual eyes ( i.e., being "born again" ).

Conversion is the regenerated person turning to
God.

Thus, Conversion is the product of Regeneration,
and there can be no true conversion without
real regeneration.

In Regeneration, only God works -and the person
plays a passive, receptive role.

In Conversion, the person is called upon to
cooperate with God. ( Albeit, the person does so
only by the power God has imparted to him for the
purpose. )

Regeneration changes the unconscious life of
the person. There is no proof of Regeneration
except by it's fruits.

Conversion -in contrast- is a conscious change
in the person, and it's workings can be perceived
directly.

Both are similar, however, in that each is an
instantaneous event, and not gradual and
progressive ( like Sanctification ).

 

[jpcedotal]

Works and fruits......that's how we show Jesus in our lives and how high He ranks. The secular world doesn't care how you act when everything is going good and you are praising the Lord. They are waiting to see what you do when times are bad.....

It is infinite peace, not happiness, that is shown through our works. A peace a non-Christian will never have or feel.

That's how you point folks to Jesus Christ.

 

[sjdean]

I agree

Me too, I just don't think that Im going to actually convert someone no matter how much I try, and we shouldn't feel down because we didn't get an opportunity to drag someone to church. At the end of the day, it's kind of like that seed someone else was talking about.

On the outside, we lack understanding, and we can't expect others to have the same understanding that we do. People will just fail to get it. But what we can hope, is that they open their mind a little to think about things further.

 

[sjdean]

When God's Word describes us as "slaves
to sin" ( Romans 6:6 & 15 NASB, NIV ),
what it's talking about is that Sin Nature.
It means that -while we have choice- the
only choice we'll make is in favor of
sin, self, and Satan !

I quite enjoyed hearing Mark 4:25

To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them.

 

[childofGod31]

I won't bore you with all the detail, but I come to the conclusion that we are wrong if we think we should be continually trying to convert people.

Conversion, comes as a softening of the heart and opening of the mind.

I think there is something in Mark 4 to this point. Before I joined the Church, I too was cynical and turned my back on God until, and I think the only way I can describe this, is he plucked me out from among others and opened my mind.

You do not fully understand faith and religion until you have crossed that line, which probably is baptism and confirmation. It's hard to understand when you're on the outside with a closed mind.

My final thought: science to me seems only of a way of explaining what we see. Things like gravity, dark flow, and dark matter, are recent examples of things we couldn't see. Just why do we have so much faith in science then? Just because we don't see God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Cya
Simon

I believe that it is God who chooses/finds people FIRST. But then He CALLS them sometimes through our witnessing. I think we should witness because God works through us. We are His hands and feet. Although He opens the eyes on the inside, sometimes the outside sources (of somebody proclaiming the truth or giving out Bibles) helps.

Rom 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called

I think that people are searching for something in their heart. And some are searching for God. And THAT makes them come to Christ. Not religious stuff. And perhaps they get fed too much religion after their conversion...

 

[heron]

When Jesus sent His disciples out to preach the good news, the people in the towns already knew the Jewish premise of God caring for them. A few were Romans, but most were already Jews. The news was redemption and forgiveness.

After Jesus' resurrection, Paul took the news further to the Gentiles.

The other part of the send-out was healing and deliverance. The disciples did not go outward to get, but to give.

Jesus sent disciples out to offer people relief and hope, not a new set of rules to follow.

 

[Sketcher]

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44

We are to pray for this to happen, and to keep our eyes open so that we can do our part in bringing people to the Lord.

 

[tulipbee]

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44

We are to pray for this to happen, and to keep our eyes open so that we can do our part in bringing people to the Lord.

This is so arminian and goofy.

First, you quote that it is God the draws the Elects and then you say you have to ask for the drawing and then you say you have to convince others to ask for the drawing. He doesn't draw based on your asking Him to draw you. You wouldn't care till he does draw you and then you'll care. He draws you first and you wouldn't need to ask for it.

How about saying, "He drew me to Jesus and we must proclaim to others."

 

[heymikey80]

I won't bore you with all the detail, but I come to the conclusion that we are wrong if we think we should be continually trying to convert people.

Agree on the attempts at conversion. Some attempts can extend into "deal-making", something God's not in the business of doing.

It still means you talk openly and clearly about what you do believe, whether or not your strategy is conversion of another.

And keep in mind Paul's point "if I may by any means win some"

My final thought: science to me seems only of a way of explaining what we see. Things like gravity, dark flow, and dark matter, are recent examples of things we couldn't see. Just why do we have so much faith in science then? Just because we don't see God, doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

The issue here is reproducibility. Science explains reproducible phenomena of the objects in the universe, and tries to draw conclusions how they work.

Human beings are "personal" -- they're inevitably not predictable in some aspects of their persons.

God's the ultimate irreproducible Person. So science has quite a tough time dealing with Existence on this order of reality.

It doesn't mean such things don't exist (unless you want to omit the existence of -- yourself, right & wrong, love, life, esthetics, emotions, meaning ...).

 

[heron]

We are God's priesthood. A priest would be a stable foundation people could come to, but also would lead the congregation in worship. (Among many other things.)
We draw people into doing things themselves.

Discipling is like teaching a man to fish... not dumping things on them and walking away, but trusting them enough to take on the same tasks we are doing.

We can believe in the potential of people, just like the early Christians believed that Saul/Paul was not going to arrest them all. They allowed him to take responsibility, instead of putting him in his place.

 

[oi_antz]

Well I don't know if I'm 100% right on what I would ever think at some point of life, but when I came over from the dark side I saw a miraculous contrast in how I perceived religion and the religion of the Christian church and so I have a fresh view of what it means to be deceived by the lies of our world.

Mostly I think that is aggravated by people who think they know something because they heard someone say it, well I know that when I hear from God in His Word I can't mistake the message of Love.

I think there's far too many people in the churches who have fueled the enemy (this means they carry evil spirits in their minds when the visit, oblivious that they infiltrate to gain more knowledge to feed the world of lies). I don't have any idea what we could do about that except simply pray for these people in our midst who have refused to ask God for understanding, they're as obvious as black on white..

I haven't just come to cut against the grain around here, but I do believe I have a supernatural sense for hearing God speak in His Holy Word and your messages on this post doesn't describe the current situation in our world where EVERY soul is precious and destined for the pit if WE don't stand up and speak the truth to the people who come to hear us!

And remember the reason for faith: that whosoever believes in Him will have everlasting life. You don't have to be able to read and understand God in the Bible to be saved, but you should not be professing truth if you haven't received that instruction from God.

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.